11/21/24
March 02, 2006
Changes at Augusta bother Jack, Arnie: "I still like the course, but I think they've ruined it from a tournament standpoint," Nicklaus said. "Augusta is a big, big part of my life, and I love it. That's why I hate to see them change it." Said Palmer: "I love the place ... but now, I'm not so sure. There are some things that are taking the realistic Augusta away. It's changed dramatically from the course I've known the last 50 years."
posted by irunfromclones to golf at 07:27 PM - 19 comments
I understand times change and things change because of it. This is one time when things should have been left alone. Bobby Jones made the par 5's with driver/three wood in mind. With today's technology it is more like driver/8 iron. You can't go blaming it on low scores over the past few years either. Back in 1977, Tom Watson won at -12. Augusta National is one of the greatest golf courses in the world and has been for as long as it has been in existance. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
posted by dbt302 at 09:34 PM on March 02, 2006
Life as we know it has changed, the equipment has changed, for God's sake, the game has changed. I think the PGA has to change with it. I really don't want to see Tiger or Phil go 30 under to win the greatest tournament there is. I know when Jack and Arnie came along that Sam and Byron said the same things. It is just what Bobby Jones said about Jack, " He plays a game with which I am not familiar !" Play the game, love the game !! You could always go surfin'
posted by Rick Brown at 09:38 PM on March 02, 2006
Basically it's a matter of new clubs, different types of golf balls, and different types of players. I applaud Hootie for changing the course for today's generation of golfer. There is a saying in manufacturing these days--evaluate or evaporate. And Augusta adapted with the times. It's one thing to hide behind history and criticize adaptations to the game, courses and players. It's a better thing to change with the times to adapt the course to today's PGA tour. While I certainly don't think the Masters and Augusta National will "evaporate," it has done well to keep up with the changes in the game and tour.
posted by roberts at 04:49 AM on March 03, 2006
The only number that means anything all week at Augusta is your score relative to the field. This obsession with par is ridiculous - saying you don't want to see someone win with a score of 30 under par is like saying you don't want to see your basketball team score 200 points - at the end of the tournament, if the second placed player is 29 under, that's an exciting tournament. The Masters organisers have been better in recent years than the USGA (who seem to think that a winning score of -1 at the US Open is ideal, and that anything lower means they have failed to trick the course up sufficiently). At the second stage of the European Tour Pre-Q tournament in 1998, one of the venues had a hole that was 510 yards long. The members played it as a five, so during the practice rounds, all the players assumed it was a five. On the first day of competition, the tournament card listed it as a four. That night in the bar, it was easy to tell the amateurs and the first timers from the old pros - the latter group had nothing to say about it, while the former was up in arms about how much harder a hole it was as a par 4 than a par 5. The fact was of course that the hole was exactly the same, regardless of what the nominal par was. It was still 510 yards long, all the bunkers and water hazards were still in the same place, and it still had out of bounds all the way up the right. Now people (including Woods it would have to be said) seem a bit miffed that they've added another 15 yards to the 11th at Augusta, making it 505 yards from the tips. Woods said: “That was inconceivable in 1997, when I won, that you would ever have a par 4 that was over 500 yards.” But the fact is that now the hole is going to play like it was designed to play - you're going to be forced to hit a mid/long iron in, instead of a short iron, and suddenly that hole is back to being the terrifying beginning of Amen Corner. With a short iron, you had the option to stick it into the right side of the green with a little spin - if the spin took, the ball fed down to the hole, if it didn't, you were left with a tricky putt. Essentially though, unless you hit a real shocker, the water was out of play and the dip to the right of the green was out of play (because you weren't bailing out away from the water!). With the mid/long iron shot they're now going to be playing, the water is back in play, not only because you are less accurate with that club, but also because you're hitting from further back up the hill where 1) The water is far more 'in your eye' and 2) The ball tends to sit slightly above your feet. Likely outcomes are either a dragged approach that goes in the water, or an over-compensated bail out that goes high and right. The putt from the right side of the green that you might have left yourself with a wedge is tricky, but the chip on the same line (from considerably below the green) is downright treacherous. I don't know about all the changes they've made, so maybe Jack and Arnie have a point elsewhere on the course, but for me, the changes to 11 (admittedly, before I've seen it played in the tournament) are exactly in keeping with how Jones would have wanted the hole to play. Like Leominster, I can't wait for it to start!
posted by JJ at 04:58 AM on March 03, 2006
Here's a article giving more details about the changes. It pretty much speaks for itself about maintaining shot values. I suppose it's daft to come down in favour of or against the changes before a tournament has been played on them (not that I'm calling Jack and/or Arnie daft), but for what it's worth, even if the changes turn out to be rubbish, they have clearly been thought through and are well intentioned.
posted by JJ at 05:13 AM on March 03, 2006
As the only major that remains in the same location, it's only natural that through the years it would have to change. Anyone can understand the emotion Jack and Arnold would have regarding "what was" at Augusta. It remains, though, in my mind, the most anticipated golf tournament each year, and I'm sure many feel the same as I do. I love it and can't wait.
posted by dyams at 06:59 AM on March 03, 2006
Holy shit. You guys sure know your golf. After reading these comments - I'm convinced I've got the right info to shoot at least double par on the 11th. Possibly even a mere triple bogey.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:46 AM on March 03, 2006
Excellent comments above, one and all. Everything about this sport is grand, including the fans. The first whiff of sping and we are all anticipating all that is great about "Bobby Jones' lil get together". JJ was right on when talking about the 11th hole. I believe Ben Hogan used to say "If I've put the ball on the green in two at 11, it is because I pulled my second". Many players played for a pitch and putt par there because hitting not just the green, but the right part of the green, was so difficult with a long iron in your hand. The distance that players (even high handicappers, for god's sake) hit the "improved balls" with the "improved sticks" necessitate an adjustment in course length if one is to place the same "shot value" on the approaches at venerable old Augusta National. That said, I bet everyone who commented before me sorta wishes it could remain the same, because Mr. Jones had himself one jewell of a course, one that all golf lovers know the back nine of almost as well as the back nine of their own club, thanks to the excellent TV coverage CBS has provided through the years. I'll be in the 19th hole at the "can't wait" club, gentlemen.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:12 AM on March 03, 2006
JJ, you make golf interesting to this non-duffer. Thanks.
posted by yerfatma at 09:12 AM on March 03, 2006
By the way, has it really been 20 years since Jack raised the hair on the back of our necks with what I consider to be the most awe inspiring nine holes of golf ever played? Wouldn't it be great if Jack had enough left in the tank to make the cut? Imagine the roars if he could remain in contention until "the tournament starts on the back nine sunday afternoon"?
posted by mjkredliner at 09:43 AM on March 03, 2006
Thinking about this today has actually crystalised for me something I couldn't put my finger on about Bay Hill when I played it a couple of weeks ago (sorry, did I drop that?). I was told by a low handicap player who played it five years ago to expect a really long sloggers course that was really difficult, but it just wasn't at all. It's a long course on the card, but a lot of the holes have suffered terribly from the technological advances. The 18th is a perfect example. The fairway rises to a peak at about 260 and then slopes gently down all the way home. When it was built, that feature meant a really big drive got extra reward, while a shorter one landed on the up-slope and didn't run. Either way (ten years ago), you would have faced at least 190 (so a five or even four iron for the pros depending on the wind) over water to a very shallow, very slopey green and you would have had to make a decision. I hit a reasonable (but not great) drive from the tips that flew over the crest of the hill in the fairway and I was going in with eight iron from 168 (pulled it to the left half of the green and holed a good second putt from ten feet below the hole for par). My dad and I threw down a ball each at the crest of the hill - so about 210 back from the green. I hit a five iron to about 15 feet (and the thought of having to lay up from there seemed ridiculous - but that might just be me) and my old man (now 60) hit a five wood to about two feet (the git). To restore that hole's "shot values" for the pros you would have to move the tee back 40-50 yards (so either remove the 17th green or someone's house) and also bring the slope back so that unless you get over the crest, you're faced with that in-between (long iron and 3 wood) shot and therefore have to decide whether or not to go for the green. It will be interesting to watch Bay Hill this year (is it next week?) and see just how far behind I am in terms of driving distance now. The best drive I hit all day was at 15. I had 73 yards left to a back right flag. The forecaddy claimed he'd never seen anyone that far up off the tee, but he was fishing for a big tip.
posted by JJ at 09:48 AM on March 03, 2006
mjkredliner - is he playing? I thought he bowed out for good last year... It's amazing to think that was 20 years ago - and slightly depressing to think that means I now have a very vivid memory of something that happened 20 years ago. yerfatma - thanks, I left the money in the usual place.
posted by JJ at 09:51 AM on March 03, 2006
I may be wrong, JJ, but I think it was Arnie that pulled out for good last year, after his 50th appearance.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:55 AM on March 03, 2006
Many of the comments above focus solely on the lengthening of the course, assuming that Jack, Arnie, and others are crying about that. Which makes me wonder if the article was actually read (but regardless, JJ's and other's comments are well-taken). "Nicklaus and Palmer apparently are most unhappy about the narrowing of some holes;" Their problem isn't necessarily with length (although unrelatedly, Jack has strong distaste for today's equipment that leads to such length). Their concern is that by narrowing the course (coupled with lengthening it), you're taking away the strategy of hitting into Augusta's nasty greens. All this is going to do is decrease the importance of the appraoch shots - either you hit short to keep it in the fairway or you go long and likely hit the rough - either way, the approach shots become crap. Isn't what we want to see, regardless of what the guy's name is and how far he can hit it, is whether he put himself into position to make either a smart or exciting run at the pin from deep in the fairway? My guess is that the "old-timers" are all for keeping up with today's longer hitters. But, when start messing with the real part of the game - the approach shots, that's when they've got a beef.
posted by littleLebowski at 10:30 AM on March 03, 2006
I left the money in the usual place. Which I previously asked you not to do, viz. the chafing issue.
posted by yerfatma at 10:31 AM on March 03, 2006
I'm fairly sure Jack retired from both the Masters and the Open last year. Amusingly, this means that Tiger has won the "Nicklaus Retirement Slam" - Nicklaus retired from the US Open and the USPGA in 2000 (both of which Tiger won) and the Open and Masters last year (both of which Tiger won). the chafing issue - are you shitting on the floor or pissing in the corner now?
posted by JJ at 10:35 AM on March 03, 2006
littleLebowski - Nicklaus and Palmer are in a better position to comment than I am (for all sorts of reasons, but mostly because they have seen the course changes and I haven't), but I suspect they might be being a bit precious about the narrowing of the course. I'll be interested to see if Augusta really have removed some of the options for playing the holes rather than just putting in place heavier punishments for getting your tee shot wrong. The new drivers hit the ball further, but they're also more forgiving of a bad shot, so it stands to reason that the holes should be narrowed as well as lengthened.
posted by JJ at 10:46 AM on March 03, 2006
are you shitting on the floor or pissing in the corner now? If we're slicing details this fine, maybe we should stop and look at what we're doing with our lives. stands to reason that the holes should be narrowed as well as lengthened. Who's being crude now?
posted by yerfatma at 12:07 PM on March 03, 2006
Both guys have legitimacy on their side- but Augusta has the legacy of Bobby Jones, who had the ability to plan for the future and then acknowledge it when it arrived. "It" is now the game of the PGA tour today, with 330 yd tee shots, seven irons from 180 and players who'd rather be in bunkers than face a ten yard chip shot. Jones himself stated that Nicklaus possessed a game that "I am not familiar with" when asked about Jacks ability to hit it long and straight. Imagine Jones laying out ANGC in 1932, and still having that venue used today. "wow" comes to mind when I think of all the great courses the tour/US Open used to play at, that are now obsolete. The complaint will be heard that only certain players will be able to win at Augusta. Thats ALWAYS been the case- Jacks got five, Arnie has four, and a bunch of others have multiples. Its the best TV coverage, and fans like it because its the only major that is site-static. I can hardly wait for it to start.