July 15, 2005

500 homeruns: and 3,000 hits, what does Rafael Palmeiro need to do to get his call to The Hall? Mark Starr of Newsweek says he needs to do more.

posted by Bag Man to baseball at 10:21 AM - 30 comments

hes in!!!!mark starr is a prick.

posted by HOE.O.K. at 11:31 AM on July 15

I'd put him in as well. Eight of his top ten comparables are in, with the exception of Fred McGriff and Harold Baines, who are not yet eligible. He clearly not a no-brainer though, and I expect a good debate over his candidacy.

posted by mbd1 at 11:46 AM on July 15

Besides, if Skip Bayless thinks Palmeiro isn't deserving, he's definitely going in.

posted by mbd1 at 11:48 AM on July 15

HOE OK is ... [deeeep breath] ... exactly right.

posted by chicobangs at 11:48 AM on July 15

Starr tries to equate all-star game appearances with Hall of Fame credentials. But the all-star game is more of a popularity contest than anything else. Plus, with the requirement that at least one player be taken from every team, a lot of deserving players get left off. In other words, I do not see how one equates to the other.

posted by graymatters at 11:59 AM on July 15

Names such as Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Robinson, Mantle and Foxx are 7 of the twelve names ahead of Palmiero's on the all-time homer list, and he doesn't belong in the Hall?? Plus he'll probably move up 3 or 4 more spots before this year's over. The guy's always been a great hitter and a really tough out. This is just one more example of giving media, reporters, etc. too much power to start throwing a guy under the bus. Christ, the guy drove in over 100 runs in 10 out of the past 12 years, 3,000 hits. NOW they start getting choosy for the Hall.

posted by dyams at 12:08 PM on July 15

3000 500 nobody with either of these numbers has been excluded, right? I think only 3 or 4 other guys have ever done both. It is amazing that anybody has the nuts to say he doesn't belong.

posted by stofer71 at 12:20 PM on July 15

I agree with graymatters. If Palmeiro played in New York or Los Angeles for a significant portion of his career, he'd have gotten more All-Star appearances (via greater exposure). While location is the most important thing for real estate, it shouldn't matter for the hall of fame. Get him in there. But the question is...which hat would he wear? Baltimore or Texas?

posted by grum@work at 12:30 PM on July 15

Not only has he done this great thing (well he will soon, 2999 hits) He did it on bad teams. And to top it all off, he is still productive. He helps a team that has a good shot at the playoffs now. He is not a part time player just trying to get his AB's to get this milestone. He is good 1st baseman and a solid hitter in a good lineup. Regardsless...........1st ballot all the way.

posted by jtrainhoopster at 12:49 PM on July 15

Why is there even a discussion about this? We all know Skip Bayless has no clue. The only reason the media is even bringing up the idea of him not going in is because he was in front of the Congressional Committee on steroids. This is a no brainer and he should go in on the first ballot. Case closed.

posted by dbt302 at 01:03 PM on July 15

Cumulitive batting average of .289 On base % of .372 Slugging % of .517 3 time Gold Glove winner Throughout 19 seasson...what does a guy have to do? Hell they let Tony "Doggie" Perez in!

posted by kingosiris at 01:14 PM on July 15

Palmeiro is a no-brainer for the HOF. I agree with that statement. The real questions are why are the people who are going to vote for HOF candidates raising these questions? In light of the rumors of steroid use and an across the board increases in offensive numbers, is there a new standard for the HOF? If so, what is it?

posted by Bag Man at 01:16 PM on July 15

The guy is a can't miss for the hall, but i understand peoples resentment for letting in a guy who probably used performance enhancing drugs.

posted by gregy606 at 01:25 PM on July 15

Note: We're going to have this discussion about Fred "worst player with 500 homers ever" McGriff soon, too.

posted by chicobangs at 01:34 PM on July 15

Note: We're going to have this discussion about Fred "worst player with 500 homers ever" McGriff soon, too. Would that be Fred "Major League Superstar" McGriff.

posted by Bag Man at 01:39 PM on July 15

Did he use the juice? Did anybody prove it?

posted by jtrainhoopster at 01:40 PM on July 15

I'd say McGriff is a different player though. Based on 0 research, it seems to me Palmeiro has been effective for a much longer period of time. McGriff was a very good player for a while, then sucked out for a few years. Palmeiro's still dangerous. Of course, McGriff's got a couple of rings from Toronto (right?), so he'll probably get right in.

posted by yerfatma at 01:41 PM on July 15

People have got in for doing less the baseball hall of fame is to lenient. They should stiffen requirements to get in. Ryan Sandberg and And Wade boggs both had awesome numbers Sandberg's 9 gold gloves and Bogg's 5 batting title's what rafael got like that nothing, He has played for shit teams, never been MVP or anything like that. I hope that if i stuck around for 15 years that i could do that too. Plus he is a juicer.... Enough Said

posted by Astroheat442 at 01:56 PM on July 15

McGriff NEVER received a ring with Toronto. He and Tony Fernandez were traded in a blockbuster to the Padres for Joe Carter and Roberto Alomar, and that's when the WS came. Fernandez of course returned to the Jays in '93 and won a ring.

posted by the red terror at 02:05 PM on July 15

However, McGriff did win a WS ring with Atlanta in 1995.

posted by the red terror at 02:10 PM on July 15

what rafael got like that nothing, He has played for shit teams, never been MVP or anything like that. I hope that if i stuck around for 15 years that i could do that too. Indeed. I think if you look at the careers of all players who stayed in the league 15 years, they're all at least close to 3,000 hits and 500 home runs, right?

posted by yerfatma at 02:16 PM on July 15

Yeah, but really there are a lot better players that are already eligible that get the shaft because someone hit 3000 hits or 500 HR or both. ANd i know no matter how much i argue he will still get in.

posted by Astroheat442 at 02:22 PM on July 15

Astroheat re: other players; I have been to several HOF induction ceremonies at Cooperstown, and I have seen players like Tony Lazzeri, Hal Newhouser and Nellie Fox get belated inductions via the Veterans Committee. Thankfully there are some experts who understand that there was a time when 50-HR seasons were freakazoidal aberations, not like the past decade, so some players who may not have the numbers will get inducted because in their era, they really were amongst the elite.

posted by the red terror at 02:35 PM on July 15

You know what a guy has to do? He has to be remembered as one of the greatest of all-time, if not among all players than at least among players at his position. If any one of you can look me in the eye and say, "You know, I always thought Palmeiro was the best first baseman of his era," I'll eat my goddamned hat. I have nothing against Raffie. Hell, I like and admire the guy. I won't even be that upset when he is enshrined. I just think the Hall of Fame is for the greatest of the great, not for the players who are very good for a very long time.

posted by wfrazerjr at 02:35 PM on July 15

wfrazerjr.> Agree completely. Palmeiro will get there, and it won't annoy me, but I won't be doing back-flips either. Like you say, when I think back to the best sluggers -- or even just 1st basemen -- of his generation, he doesn't rank high. But he's had a long career and done consistently well, kinda reminds me of the Don Sutton argument.

posted by the red terror at 02:39 PM on July 15

wfrazerjr----- I agree with you, I never would turn on a game to see "Raffie". I mean in my mind there are players that don't have his numbers but i feel are better "players". You can crunch numbers all day but i really don't think "Raffie" will be remembered as an all time great.

posted by Astroheat442 at 02:45 PM on July 15

But the question is...which hat would he wear? Baltimore or Texas? Texas - 321 HRs, 1039 RBIs Baltimore - 220 HRs, 691 RBIs so far So, it should be Texas. But they pissed him off, so it will probably be Baltimore.

posted by graymatters at 02:49 PM on July 15

He doesn't get to choose it will be Texas, i don't know him as an O he is a Ranger. ANd being from teh great state of Texas i would not have it any other way.

posted by Astroheat442 at 02:51 PM on July 15

McGriff doesn't have 500 HR, he has 493. And we really should be talking about which tier Palmeiro belongs in in Bill Simmons' HOF pyramid. (No link because stupid-ass espn.com is going to eventually be all Insider content).

posted by mbd1 at 03:00 PM on July 15

My take on Palmeiro for the hall of fame:

  • If he gets in on the first ballot, I have no problem with that.
  • If he JUST misses getting in on the first ballot (65-70% of the vote) but gets in cleanly on the second one, then I don't have a problem with it, but I exercise the right to say "I think he got stiffed."
  • If he doesn't get in for a couple of tries but eventually makes it in, then I'll be a little upset and I'll blame it on Steroid-mania.
  • If he never makes it in, I reserve the right to call the voters a bunch of lilly-livered morons.
He's not a "Hall of Legends" or a "Hall of Amazing" member, but he's a "Hall of the Very Good" member in my books. If you are a "Small Hall" proponent, then I can understand leaving him out. He's done nothing legendary. His consistancy reminds me of Harold Baines, but at higher level (+10HR/season, +60OPS/season). If you are a "Big Hall" proponent, you push him right in there, but worry about him dragging some of his contemporaries along with him that might not be as deserving.

posted by grum@work at 03:20 PM on July 15

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