12/21/24
May 01, 2004
"Boston has probably the same chances the Yankees will have.": Citing management's lack of negotiation since spring training, Pedro is closing the negotiation process for the duration of the regular season and will try free agency at the end of the season. Somewhere, George Steinbrenner just declared, "Well, hell, I do need pitchers!!" Martinez hasn't ruled out playing for the Yankees (I think I just threw up a little), doesn't appreciate that no one has talked to him since spring training (Pedro, baby, it's only been a month) and doesn't like that questions were raised about his shoulder. In the past couple years, the team has declared openly that they don't negotiate during the regular season. What the team apparently has been trying to negotiate in is a voidable contract, which I admit I know little about and this is the first I've heard of it.
posted by jerseygirl to baseball at 08:48 AM - 23 comments
Anyone heard of these voidable contracts? You mean besides the NFL? Pedro's a smart guy. He knows how to negotiate, and he's letting the fans do it for him. I love Pedro and I'd love for him to finish his career with the Sox 8 years from now, but the reality is he may not be here next year and he won't last 8 years whereever he goes. He's had the same cold-weather problems at the start of the last 3 seasons or so and he's come through them. Maybe he's become a better pitcher since losing his velocity, but in my heart of hearts I have to admit he's not the Golden God he was in '98-2000. And he's never going to be that guy again without his fastball returning. Which would involve Della Resse and the Pax Network being on the mound with him. His struggles are reminding me more and more of Ramon Martinez's tenure with the Old Town Team. Want to see the Sox paying $18-20 million for someone who needs an hour to warm up and then gives you 5 decent innings? The good news is, you may be panicking but I doubt Theo is.
posted by yerfatma at 11:26 AM on May 01, 2004
I pretty much haven't expected Pedro to come back since mid-last year. Thing is, he's gonna break down at some point, and the Sox are not going to be stuck paying him 16 mil a year for not pitching. There's no way. They're willing to deal with him pitching well for the Yankees for a couple of years; it's better than having the salary tied up in an injury. I am phlegmatic.
posted by Bryant at 11:30 AM on May 01, 2004
Steinbrenner wouldn't make THAT bad a decision, would he? Pedro is already down to a high 80s fastball and is too fragile to have the longevity of Schilling or Clemens. Even though he's become more of a 'pitcher' over these past years, what kind of market would there be for him in free-agency?
posted by crank at 11:36 AM on May 01, 2004
There will be a huge market for him in free agency. It is totally sane for Theo to want to pay him less, but... this is still a guy whose highest ERA since 1998 was 2.39 and in two down years has been 34-8. 99% of the pitchers in the league would kill for that ERA and 95% of them would kill for that record.
posted by tieguy at 01:10 PM on May 01, 2004
Is there any possibility that, nearing the trade deadline, the Sox will trade PM to get some kind of value rather than lose him for naught?
posted by billsaysthis at 01:19 PM on May 01, 2004
Maybe Theo is just being cagey. As it stands now, if Pedro wants the simoleans, Pedro has to prove he's worth it this year. If he does, the Sox are more likely to win the big one and Theo has a better chance of affording his free agent price. If he doesn't, Theo is lauded as an astute observer who made a smart decision.
posted by dzot at 02:02 PM on May 01, 2004
There will be a huge market for him in free agency. Who do you think will try to sign him? There won't be many teams that can afford him. Gary Sheffield batted .330 with 132 RBIs and really only had one place to go.
posted by crank at 02:32 PM on May 01, 2004
crank: fair point. But that one place will probably be enough, given their current ERA.
posted by tieguy at 03:28 PM on May 01, 2004
what kind of market would there be for him in free-agency?
posted by yerfatma at 04:53 PM on May 01, 2004
I think Steinbrenner would take PM, just to grab Red Sox Nation by the gonads and yank(ee). He hates Boston, he hates Boston's management. This isn't to say he'll overpay Pedro, but money isn't an issue in the Bronx. I can't let myself panic about it now, the team is just doing too well to let something hypothetical spoil it. I have kind of written off the free agents (with the exception of Varitek) as gone for next year. We'll see. Maybe it is a posturing mechanism through the media, in which case, its probably smart. Nothing strikes fear in the hearts of red sox fans like the idea of anyone going from Boston to NYY a la Clemens. Well, except Tony Clark. You can have Tony Clark. Cafardo's take in the Globe from this morning.
posted by jerseygirl at 05:19 PM on May 01, 2004
yerfatma: Sure, any team would take Pedro in their rotation. The question is, how many teams can afford to have him in their rotation at $18+ million a year? That narrows the list way down. Of those teams that can afford him, only those that expect to have a shot at the world series in the immediate future are going to actually shell out the money for him. Nobody in the midst of rebuilding a team is going to drop $50-60 million on an aging Pedro with the kind of questions that are out there regarding his shoulder. They'd rather spend that money on younger players. Vlad was the hottest free-agent this past off season, but the market wasn't that great for him. The Mets were afraid to offer him a long term deal becasue of his back. Who else was in the running? Baltimore and obviously Anaheim.... I don't remember if there was really anyone else, despite the fact that any team would put him in their line-up if they could..
posted by crank at 06:16 PM on May 01, 2004
The question is, how many teams can afford to have him in their rotation at $18+ million a year? That narrows the list way down. Dearie, if he can command $18 million, there's a market for him. Much as I will miss him, I think Tek is gone. Big $$$ for a catcher + Scott Boras: Super Agent = Overpriced. Learn to love what's-his-nuts, the kid in Portland last year. He gets on base and he's a solid defensive catcher.
posted by yerfatma at 07:32 PM on May 01, 2004
Dearie, if he can command $18 million, there's a market for him. Then tell us what teams will pay $18+ million for the tail end of Pedro's career if it's such a lock.
posted by crank at 07:56 PM on May 01, 2004
As a Red Sox fan, this doesn't surprise me, nor does it bother me. I love pedro, even with all his drama, but anything near 18 million a year in his current state is insane. Could he go on to win another cy young or two and embarass boston? Sure, but that's the chance you take. It's still a good decision. Really, he's now put all the pressure on himself to perform at a high level. It will be interesting to see how it goes from here.
posted by justgary at 10:07 PM on May 01, 2004
I don't want to learn to love what's-his-nuts aka Kelly Shoppach yet. I still think he's too green to be a backup catcher. Maybe a 2 year deal for Varitek, with a team option for a third. Somewhere in that 2-3 year deal, you work Shoppach up from the minors and let him learn under Varitek. I don't think Varitek is going to be the Boras puppet thamaybe D. Lowe is. Where'd the 18m Pedro figure come in for next year? I thought Pedro was taking a paycut. Christ, if Schilling is getting 12.5m, Pedro shouldn't be getting too much more than that. They can't trade Pedro, he's a 10-5 guy, so who is up as a FA at the end of the season? Theo responds to Pedro perfectly.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:21 AM on May 02, 2004
Then tell us what teams will pay $18+ million for the tail end of Pedro's career if it's such a lock. I don't know if $18 million is the price tag for the best pitcher in baseball anymore. The market has slowed down and gotten more sensible in the last two off-seasons. Either way, it won't just be NY and Boston who're interested. He may wind up in one of those two places because he's worth more to those teams, but Texas, Baltimore, LA, Anaheim, Chicago, Atlanta (maybe), etc. could all be players. That's 8 teams and I'm surethere will be more that inquire. Kelly Shoppach wasn't ready to hit major league pitching last year. He'll be up in September and we'll see how he does. I wouldn't underestimate how much Scott Boras can fuck things up even with a big market team. A catcher is only worth so much-- there are a lot of fish in that positional sea, and what's Varitek got that makes him a Piazza/ I-Rod dollars type guy? Blocking the plate better than anyone else is only worth a few dollars, relatively speaking. I like Jason Varitek a lot, but the reality is catcher is a realtively elastic position in erms of replacing one player with another.
posted by yerfatma at 09:21 AM on May 02, 2004
Gammons thinks Boston could trade for Zito. There's no direct permalink for it, so here's the text. Thanks bostondirtdogs.com
Gammo thinks it could be so. 5.2.04: Gammons excerpts on WEEI The Baseball Show with Neumy, McAdam, Buckley: Pedro’s stream of consciousness wasn’t well thought out. If you’re worried about the fans and love Boston, you can play for $13M a year... some people sign under market, Curt Schilling coming here, if you really want to take the AAV (average annual value) side of it. Playing in a sold out park, having a team competitive in probably the most rabid baseball town in America, does mean something. Only a finite amount of money that the Red Sox can spend. They can’t spend with Yankees. They've done an astounding job raising revenue from $160M – 230M. But the Yankees have $340M. The Red Sox have $380M in debt service. George Steinbrenner paid $10M back in the '70s. So they (Sox) can’t play it that way. There's only so much money for each player. It's unfair to call them liars. He might not agree with what they offer. But he hasn’t been lied to at all. They’re (Red Sox brass) trying to find a way. His shoulder is not likely to be insurable, so the Red Sox couldn’t collect if he went on the disabled list for a year. The way that was said (by Pedro) was wrong. John Henry, Larry Lucchino, and Theo Epstein sat down with all people in the organization to make sure not to say anything negative about this guy. It was a pretty strong order. I think the shots he took at them were a little bit unfair. But part of what makes Pedro so good is to run off like this. Buck: How much of this is a 72 hour brushfire or is it a season-long black cloud? PG: Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek are not affected by this. Or Ortiz, and I think they’ll get him done. The cloud is with Nomar and Pedro, but they're both so driven to succeed, they’ll perform... They haven’t bled Red Sox blue for a couple of years now. Still, a very close team. And it's not from star players but from the second tier (read: dirt dogs). Ortiz, Varitek, Millar, they drive the engine, and create this team's personality. I was amazed to see how much Pedro was missing the glove last night. It’s troublesome, but it’s one game... At same time, what level (salary to pay Pedro)? He wants an AAV higher than Kevin Brown, but what can you live on? $13.5M two years, plus options, depending on health. After two more years, he'll have made $117M with the Red Sox. It’s not the dollars (the players' care about), it’s you want more than this other person. If they gave each one what it requires to sign them right now, to me, they’d be insane. They’re gonna stick to what they believe each player is worth… Scott Boras and Lowe at 4x12, 4X10 for Varitek, is not going to get done right now. ...I don’t know if the Nomar thing is going to get reopened or not. There's a lot of bitterness there. If they sign Ortiz, it's not going to infuriate Jason Varitek. I think Oakland will trade Barry Zito and he could wind up here because of the relationship between the GMs. (Buck: Cape league coach Joe Walsh over at Hartford raves about him every chance he gets). ...Andy Dominque has gotten Oakland A’s written all over him... Zito would be great here. Tall lefty, Bruce Hurst did well here. But we’re a long way from there.
posted by jerseygirl at 03:22 PM on May 02, 2004
Manny tells the Boston Herald he'd gladly help pay to keep Pedro in Boston.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:53 AM on May 03, 2004
I don't get how everyone is reading 'defer' as 'pay' in that manny story. Still, nice to see.
posted by tieguy at 12:08 PM on May 03, 2004
You're right, I was a little hasty on the typing. My bad entirely. The papers are kind of split.. and talk radio is all over the place... does anyone think Boston would be making a tremendous mistake by letting Pedro walk, and then trading for another pitcher?
posted by jerseygirl at 12:35 PM on May 03, 2004
depends on who that pitcher is. Letting Pedro go would nt be the same as letting Clemens go, in my estimation. I'd trust theo to make the right decision though - he's proven to be pretty damn good so far.
posted by Bernreuther at 02:50 PM on May 03, 2004
If I'm not mistaken, there is a bunch of bad blood between many of the Yankee players and Pedro. Of course, there was bad blood between the Yankee players and Roger Clemens back in '98, and that worked out pretty well. Don't think that George wouldn't jump at the chance to get Pedro, though, even over the heads of Cashman and Torre. It has all the things he looks for in a deal: It torques off the Red Sox, it adds a big name, and it will increase ticket sales. Pedro is extremely popular with the Dominican population of NY. A few years ago, I remember going to a game where someone shot fireworks off of one of the apartments across from the stadium every time he struck someone out.
posted by Jugwine at 04:15 PM on May 03, 2004
Anyone heard of these voidable contracts? Can you imagine if the Mets' had one with Mo Vaughn? He has had shoulder problems and he has been able to get around it thus far by lowering his velocity but keeping the pitch location accuracy. He got lit up a couple times this year, but that is possibly attributed to the weather (it was cold both times). Obviously, without being privy to exactly what was said, the team asking about his shoulder doesn't seem that way off to me. Neither does the not-negotiating during the season, since that's what has always been the policy prior.