11/23/24
January 08, 2014
Hall of Fame Admits Maddux, Glavine, Frank Thomas: Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Frank Thomas have been chosen by the Baseball Writers' Association of America to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, each by large margins. Craig Biggio fell two votes short of the 75 percent required to get in. Joining the three from the managerial ranks are Bobby Cox, Joe Torre and Tony La Russa.
The fact that Alou, Nomo, Gonzalez, Gagne, Snow, Benitez, Jones, and Rogers all got votes suggests that there are some people who didn't take the process very seriously. If anyone voted for those names AND didn't fill their ballot to ten...
I was looking for some homerism (all those players played for one or more of Det, LAD, or SF), but it seems to me if you're a Detroit writer just voting for all former Detroit players, by the time you get to so-so players, you'd pick Todd Jones over Jacque Jones* anyways.
* Edited because Armando Benitez, apparently didn't play for Det.
posted by dfleming at 02:35 PM on January 08, 2014
There is a suggestion that some writers picked the bottom-barrel-ballot choices as a way of confirming their votes were counted.
posted by grum@work at 02:41 PM on January 08, 2014
Deadspin reveals who "sold" their vote to them.
They are careful to point out the voter didn't actually receive anything for letting Deadspin fill in his/her ballot. It was purely on principle.
posted by grum@work at 02:56 PM on January 08, 2014
We all know the only reason that most HOF voters are making Maddux a first ballot pick is because they know what will happen to them if they don't.
You want to mess with this guy, be my guest:
posted by yerfatma at 03:48 PM on January 08, 2014
by the time you get to so-so players, you'd pick Todd Jones over Jacque Jones* anyways
Assuming you weren't going alphabetically.
posted by yerfatma at 03:49 PM on January 08, 2014
"There are 16 idiots who didn't vote for Maddux."
In related news, Greg found 16 new people to contribute to the flesh suit he's making in his basement.
Brutally honestly, considering all the hatred for them, I'm surprised at how many votes Clemens and Bonds got. That actually gives me some hope ("some" being the operative word here).
posted by Bonkers at 06:13 PM on January 08, 2014
Maddux receives 555 votes... just 111 votes off from... well, you can add.
111, of course, being the documented number of victims.
posted by Joey Michaels at 06:57 PM on January 08, 2014
My current ballot for next year:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Mussina
Schilling, Smoltz, Martinez, Sosa, Trammell, Walker, and Kent would also get votes from me if there was an unlimited ballot size.
The ones in bold are the ones that I think have the best chance of getting elected next year.
Johnson and Martinez are almost assuredly getting in with 85% of the vote.
Biggio will climb above the 75% mark after coming so close this year.
Smoltz might sneak through at 75% because of his connection to Maddux/Glavine/Cox, as I suspect one (or more) of them will comment about "Smoltz joining them when his time comes".
It think Sosa drops off the ballot (<5%), and Mattingly disappears (as it is his last year on the ballot).
Piazza will be the "close but no cigar" candidate at about 68%.
Bagwell will get a big jump in numbers (riding on the Biggio bandwagon) and will bust through 60%.
Raines will be the sabremetric darling of choice, and the push for him will get him to almost 60%. (I see a Blyleven-style progression to eventual election for him.)
posted by grum@work at 09:40 AM on January 09, 2014
Can someone please explain the case against Tim Raines? I'm at a loss.
posted by yerfatma at 12:15 PM on January 09, 2014
Deadspin reveals who "sold" their vote to them.
I can appreciate what Le Batard did but he has just about every platform available to discredit the HOF voting without giving up his right to vote. Now his vote may be taken away.
posted by BornIcon at 12:31 PM on January 09, 2014
Can someone please explain the case against Tim Raines? I'm at a loss.
Heck, Kenny Lofton, whose career numbers are very similar to Raines' (Raines has one WAR more throughout his career) couldn't even stay on the ballot. Relief pitching and stolen bases seem to be given significantly less value by BBWAA.
posted by dfleming at 12:41 PM on January 09, 2014
Can someone please explain the case against Tim Raines? I'm at a loss.
I'd vote for him, but here goes my attempt:
1) "There are 10 better candidates."
Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Mussina/Schilling/Morris
It's subjective, but I can think of at least 7 off the top of my head (for this year and next), and it's not a stretch to push him further down the list.
2) He played at the same time as Rickey Henderson.
You know who's a great hockey player? Dale Hawerchuk. Except the dude played during the era of some of the greatest of all time (Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Lemiuex), so he's almost always forgotten. The same thing happens to Raines. He's one of the best leadoff hitters in history...except that he played at the same time as the greatest leadoff hitter of the last 80 years.
3) He played in Montreal.
His prime years were in a place that barely got mentioned by the American sports media. If he had put up those numbers in LA, Chicago, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, St. Louis...he'd probably be there now.
4) Award drought.
One batting title.
One All-Star MVP.
Voted to only two All-Star games.
Not a single 1st-place MVP vote.
5) No flashy numbers.
Never stole 100 bases.
Only four .300 AVG seasons when he qualified for a batting title.
The two years that he led the majors in stolen bases are the only two years out of a run of five seasons that Henderson didn't steal 100+ bases.
6) Drugs.
He's probably taking a hit for his famous "I slid head-first because I didn't want to break my coke vial in my back pocket." comment.
posted by grum@work at 01:21 PM on January 09, 2014
Relief pitching and stolen bases seem to be given significantly less value by BBWAA.
As a rule, I think high OBP guys are undervalued by the writers. On Pardon the Interruption yesterday in the midst of burning ex-fill-in host Dan LeBatard at the stake, Kornheiser casually mentioned he thinks Biggio will get in but that he belongs in the Hall of Very Good with Jack Morris. You probably heard my sigh as I changed the channel. While he did it with two additional seasons, Biggio racked up 147% of Morris' WAR total. But yeah, they're the same.
posted by yerfatma at 01:55 PM on January 09, 2014
Can someone please explain the case against Tim Raines? I'm at a loss. I'd vote for him, but here goes my attempt:
Very competently said, grum. Now, how can we make you a BBWA member and get you a HoF ballot every year. I would be willing to bet that fewer than half of the BBWA HoF voters do as much research as you, and that's the whole problem. Perhaps no ballot should be accepted unless accompanied by an explanation of the logic behind it.
posted by Howard_T at 02:48 PM on January 09, 2014
I vote for grum as a voter and howard as returning officer.
posted by cixelsyd at 04:28 PM on January 09, 2014
Now his vote may be taken away.
Indeed it has. But given that the annual complaints against the BBWA circlejerk seem to do nothing, perhaps it's time to escalate.
posted by etagloh at 05:00 PM on January 09, 2014
Please observe the list of revealed voters and their ballots from the official BBWAA website.
(Which looks like it was coded in 1999.)
Now scroll down to Lawrence Rocca's ballot.
Bathe in the ridiculousness of the choices, and remember that they threw out Dan LeBatard from their group for making a mockery of their process, but Mr. Rocca is a member.
posted by grum@work at 02:46 PM on January 10, 2014
What's the case against Kent? Is it just his defense and his general douchiness?
posted by Whizbang at 10:00 PM on January 10, 2014
What's the case against Kent? Is it just his defense and his general douchiness?
Pro:
MVP award.
Most HR by a 2B (351).
Voted to the All-Star Game four times.
Decent post-season numbers.
Very long career (for a 2B), with generally good-to-great numbers for the last half of his career.
Cons:
Zero "black ink". (Never led the league in ANY statistical category, regardless of how minor it might be.)
Meh, defensively. (Probably below average for his career.)
Even his MVP is looked back on as "anyone but Bonds", who had better numbers than him on the same team.
Never finished in the top 5 in MVP voting ever again.
His power numbers jumped a lot when he turned 30 in 1998, so some may cast a curious glance at him...
Serious douchebag, at times. (For fun, point out that his truck is dirty and needs to be washed.)
He's borderline HOF, and in the group of 18 realistic HOF-potential players on the ballot this year, he was around #15 to #17, or so.
I think he wouldn't be a bad choice for the HOF, it's just that there are a lot of guys on the ballot I'd vote ahead of him.
An unlimited ballot? Sure, I'd write his name.
posted by grum@work at 02:12 AM on January 11, 2014
Cons:
Bad at motorcycle wheelies
Bad at lying
posted by yerfatma at 09:11 AM on January 11, 2014
Rocca's argument is that he's boycotting the steroid era, including Maddux and Glavine because they had "standing" to blow the whistle. But Nomo doesn't count because Japan. Or something.
Personally, I think Halls of Fame are stupid, but like college rankings, the baseball HoF is there for the arguments, not the decisions.
posted by etagloh at 01:39 PM on January 11, 2014
Baseball Hall of Fame voting results
(the BBWAA site is getting hammered right now)
Total ballots cast: 571
Required for election: 429
Name Votes (%)
Greg Maddux 555 (97.2%)
Tom Glavine 525 (91.9)
Frank Thomas 478 (83.7)
Craig Biggio 427 (74.8)
Mike Piazza 355 (62.2)
Jack Morris 351 (61.5)
Jeff Bagwell 310 (54.3)
Tim Raines 263 (46.1)
Roger Clemens 202 (35.4)
Barry Bonds 198 (34.7)
Lee Smith 171 (29.9)
Curt Schilling 167 (29.2)
Edgar Martinez 144 (25.2)
Alan Trammell 119 (20.8)
Mike Mussina 116 (20.3)
Jeff Kent 87 (15.2)
Fred McGriff 67 (11.7)
Mark McGwire 63 (11.0)
Larry Walker 58 (10.2)
Don Mattingly 47 (8.2)
Sammy Sosa 41 (7.2)
Rafael Palmeiro 25 (4.4)
Moises Alou 6 (1.1)
Hideo Nomo 6 (1.1)
Luis Gonzalez 5 (0.9)
Eric Gagne 2 (0.4)
J.T. Snow 2 (0.4)
Armando Benitez 1 (0.2)
Jacque Jones 1 (0.2)
Kenny Rogers 1 (0.2)
Sean Casey 0 (0)
Ray Durham 0 (0)
Todd Jones 0 (0)
Paul LoDuca 0 (0)
Richie Sexson 0 (0)
Mike Timlin 0 (0)
Comments:
There are 16 idiots who didn't vote for Maddux.
Biggio missed by TWO votes.
The Morris story is done until the VC votes in 3 years.
Palmeiro drops off the ballot. This is unheard of for a 500HR or 3000H player, never mind someone who did both.*
Based on the votes that were announced ahead of time, it seems the unannounced voters were WAY below the published average of names on the ballot (over 9), hence why EVERYONE'S vote totals dropped significantly (compared to the published ballot totals).
The fact that Alou, Nomo, Gonzalez, Gagne, Snow, Benitez, Jones, and Rogers all got votes suggests that there are some people who didn't take the process very seriously. If anyone voted for those names AND didn't fill their ballot to ten...
*Before some smart alek says "Pete Rose!", I'll point out that the Hit King was never ON the ballot in the first place.