September 05, 2012

Wow, I'm not really not cool with the comment editing- chide me if you must, but if you're going to rewrite comments (and without clear indication, to boot), this site just became a whole lot less friendly.

Sorry you feel that way Hincandenza. I should have noted the edit, but this isn't a new thing. From the new user page:

This site is not a place for trash-talking fans to repeatedly proclaim that their team rocks and someone else's team sucks.

I'm all for fun. Trash talking doesn't encourage discussion. And this has been a problem in the past. People either love or hate the Yankees, but if every link about them becomes a discussion of how much they suck, why put the time into created a post about the Yankees.

If you disagree please bring it up in the locker room or email a moderator.

posted by justgary at 05:56 PM on September 05, 2012

Just one drone from the mob, but if a comment or part thereof is deleted, could not something be inserted to let the rest of us know that? An announcement that a sentence/paragraph/comment has been deleted due to inappropriate language, commentary not in accordance with site guidelines, or such would remind us that we are being monitored and need to be careful with the keyboard.

I do note there is little visible evidence of editing by the monitors. This tells me that those of us who do contribute are behaving themselves. We do get into some pretty good verbal battles, but the temperature stays down, we are willing to accept other viewpoints, and are more than ready to defend our own. I've been a member of the community for 6 1/2 years, and I've learned a lot about sports, discourse, and good behavior. At my age, courtesy is important, and I congratulate the vast majority of SpoFites for the way they act.

posted by Howard_T at 06:28 PM on September 05, 2012

For the record, the line I deleted was something along the lines of:

"as a fan of the Red Sox the past two seasons can I say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

When the site first started we had a good number of Yankee fans, and over the years many have vanished. I know for a fact that some left because every Yankee thread turned into a Yankees hate fest.

There's nothing wrong with commenting that you're enjoying a certain team losing. People have done so in the thread. But I thought hincandenza's comment was a little over the top.

I enjoy the Yankees losing, but I didn't make the post to bash them. I posted it because it's an interesting story.

I disagree that by enforcing that particular guideline we're making the site less fun. you often have enlightening comments hincandenza. In my opinion, that's where the fun is.

posted by justgary at 07:51 PM on September 05, 2012

Or did you mean here?

I meant here, and only in reference to partial comment deletions. I looked in MetaTalk to see if in-comment editing was ever discussed, but didn't find a thread.

I also think that if you're going to delete text and then reference it here as done above, you should quote it verbatim rather than paraphrasing it.

It's not a matter of being dismissive. There's no way to quote it verbatim. After the comment is saved again, the original is no longer available.

One of the reasons MetaFilter and SportsFilter are more civil than other sites is because of active moderation. Comments are rarely moderated here any more, but in the early years we doused a lot of flamewars using the technique you object to.

posted by rcade at 09:38 PM on September 05, 2012

I would really love it if people could stop basing the emotional energy of their baseball fandom over how much they hate some team. I find this flavor of sports "fandom" kind of embarrassing and kind of disturbing. It doesn't help that I'm a Yankee fan, always have been, and that SpoFi has a long history of shitty attitudes and behavior towards the Yankees and their fans. The fact that it's worse elsewhere doesn't make it good here.

I know for a fact that some left because every Yankee thread turned into a Yankees hate fest.

Exactly so. Who the hell needs that kind of bush league bullshit all the time? But no, apparently we can't have a thread where the Y-name is mentioned without this kind of silly-ass nonsense, always and forever. Who needs it?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:57 PM on September 05, 2012

Do they actually edit comments over on MeFi (other than the occasional broke-the-page HTML stuff)? Seems to me that they just flat-out delete a comment rather than edit out offending parts. And that is what I would vastly prefer, if only because it doesn't expose the mods to charges of changing the intent of what someone said.

posted by Etrigan at 07:46 AM on September 06, 2012

I love to hate the Yankees. It's fun to root against those kind of dominant teams. However, I don't want to do it such that SpoFi loses Yankees fans. I think we lost BullpenPro over that, and he was a great member.

posted by bperk at 08:57 AM on September 06, 2012

counterfans who are as motivated to see them lose I love to hate the Yankees.

Well, it's really up to y'all what kind of fans (or "counterfans", or haters) you want to be, and what kind of place you want this to be. I'm surprised that the comment was censored because for years, it's been open season on Yankees and Yankee fans here. If you didn't want that, you should have done something long ago, and if you do want that, why make a pretense of changing the nod-and-wink-at-the-haterade-fest policy now?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:18 AM on September 06, 2012

I guess I feel that rather than edit it, if you'd just followed up with a comment (in big bold mod font) saying "Hey, let's not do the pile-on and keep it civil" ...

Do people really like that approach? I think anything that calls attention to moderation tends to bother people. They'd rather see comments disappear than be told how to conduct themselves.

posted by rcade at 11:00 AM on September 06, 2012

rcade: Do people really like that approach? I think anything that calls attention to moderation tends to bother people. They'd rather see comments disappear than be told how to conduct themselves.

I have long felt that comments- here or at Metafilter- should almost never be deleted, except in unbelievably extreme cases where it is legally problematic (i.e., if someone types a very explicit threat against someone's life, hiding but not deleting the comment and discussing among the site owners what to do, etc). Using gentle nudges will be more effective at moderation than comment deletion, without the side effect of angering the people who make up the site.

If the mod is polite, it's a way of appealing to my good nature and reinforcing a site ethos- and it doesn't even have to be public the first time. Your email to me yesterday for example reminded me "Okay, as a Sox fan, I certainly can sympathize with Yankee fans who are potentially watching their team do what mine did last year". And you know what? That would have been enough. I'd have not posted a 'HAHAHA' again in that thread.

If multiple people piled on the Yankees, then maybe a public mod-quote of [Okay, let's tone down the anti-Yankee rhetoric and keep it civil] to help tame things. If I or others persisted in being a dick over and over, despite you trying to moderate, then a time-out (one-day) ban seems reasonable, as a "Okay, you keep going over the top, we asked nicely, so take a breather and come back tomorrow".

I certainly understand the desire to not want this be every other sports site comment section, with lots of "_____ SUXX!" shouting; but we're more of a community here, with far fewer (and in a way, less anonymous) voices than an ESPN. So, please appeal to that understanding, and ask me and others to tone it down if things seem to get heated or divisive.

But when the comment is just up and edited/deleted, at least for me it makes me far more defensive, and angry: suddenly, the eggshells we're apparently all walking on are too visible. Will my next comment get edited/deleted? Why? Will I know? Is the deletion just, and is it balanced- or will I feel persecuted if seemingly parallel comments are left up? Now, instead of just typing and being part of the conversation, I'm thinking "What's the point? Why invest even 5 minutes of my time to comment, when it could just be deleted because someone didn't have their morning coffee?" And I don't think I'm alone in being really uneasy about comment deletion.

This might be my American sensibilities, but comment deletion seems so extreme, and seems like something that is inherently an abuse of power. Again, might be the "Freedom, man!" upbringing, but something about being able to edit history as if a comment didn't happen (or even, that a user never existed), seems like a really difficult thing to have on the table for anything that isn't utterly exceptional. And I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but it just has a touch of Orwellian overtones to rewrite the past- even if well intentioned and obviously small potatoes, since we're just talking a message board on the internet. That it's "just a message board" doesn't mean it isn't unsettling when it happens.

I feel strongly that the comments and users should be left untouched, warts and all, and if you think a user or thread is becoming unfriendly to certain fans or an overall trainwreck, then try to guide it using social tools (including the 24-hour or escalating timeout as an option). I hope I can convince you to feel the same way, and to avoid comment editing in the future- even if it's already rare- altogether.

posted by hincandenza at 01:27 PM on September 06, 2012

Do people really like that approach? I think anything that calls attention to moderation tends to bother people.

Not that I'm a guide to human behavior, but I would prefer a note indicating what happened or deletion of any comment that refers to the comment with the Metafilter-style "[please don't do x]" replacing the comment(s). I've had a couple of comments axed at Metafilter because they were in reply to something problematic and I got a note from the mods letting me know and providing the text of the comment. I think that's above and beyond, but having things disappear down the memory hole is the worst possible outcome for me.

If you treat people in a nasty fashion, over a long period of time, don't be surprised when that becomes and remains a sore point.

This is veering close to "When's White History Month?" and "Know who the real minority is now? Straight white Christians!" Other teams, for me the Red Sox and the Patriots, cause just as much schaedenfreude as the Yankees. It's the price of success and the only answer is to grow a thicker skin or avoid the threads. I can sympathize as it is almost impossible to enjoy Deadspin as a fan of New England sports due to the knee-jerk "Tawmee from Qwinzee is a racist" trope that crops up between members making racist jokes as an arch art form. Bringing together sports fans from different regions/ teams is going to lead to arguing and the successful teams will always get the brunt of it.

If you feel like anti-Yankee bias is the result of intentional actions from the moderators, I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes in threads about major US sports, you don't so much come across as a fan of a team as there to complain about people who aren't fans of a team.

posted by yerfatma at 02:16 PM on September 06, 2012

I have long felt that comments- here or at Metafilter- should almost never be deleted, except in unbelievably extreme cases where it is legally problematic ... Using gentle nudges will be more effective at moderation than comment deletion, without the side effect of angering the people who make up the site.

I used to share your "Freedom, man!" thinking. Then I ran online web communities for 17 years.

I think you greatly underestimate the amount of problems that bad-behaved users create for a community. Gentle nudges only work on reasonable, even-tempered people. They would work on you and most long-timers because you have respect for the place and the people here.

Some people don't have respect for sites like this one and MetaFilter. They just want to troll and enjoy the ensuing chaos. Others can't express an opinion without personal invective or bigoted opinions. Others are too angry about a subject or person to discuss them without a flamewar. That stuff has to be dealt with. Otherwise, the site will become a troll orgy and good users will leave.

As for you being upset that your comment was moved here, it was necessary to address your concerns properly.

posted by rcade at 02:56 PM on September 06, 2012

Other teams, for me the Red Sox and the Patriots, cause just as much schaedenfreude as the Yankees.

I think this would be more of an issue here if there weren't so many fans of these teams here. There are far fewer Yankees fans here, so the Yankees posts get more easily diverted to a hate-fest. We ought to be able to discuss any sports team rationally -- pitching, hitting, coaching without the hate. And, as Nerf pointed out, the thread could have just as easily been focused on the surprising Orioles or surging Rays.

posted by bperk at 03:58 PM on September 06, 2012

This might be my American sensibilities, but comment deletion seems so extreme, and seems like something that is inherently an abuse of power. Again, might be the "Freedom, man!" upbringing, but something about being able to edit history as if a comment didn't happen (or even, that a user never existed), seems like a really difficult thing to have on the table for anything that isn't utterly exceptional. And I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but it just has a touch of Orwellian overtones to rewrite the past- even if well intentioned and obviously small potatoes, since we're just talking a message board on the internet. That it's "just a message board" doesn't mean it isn't unsettling when it happens.

Oy, if you think the removal of a pointless comment is at all related to some Orwellian overtone then I don't know what to tell you. From the time kids learn to babble, we've told them to be quiet if they're not being productive with their speech. I think sometimes it takes people a while to realize this. I think on the internet, some people go back one development cycle.

The day that something of actual substance gets removed, I will lead the mob. A slippery slope argument based on a comment which is purely antagonistic doesn't make me want to run to the barn and grab my pitchfork. There are degrees to which discourse gets more productive without antagonistic elements in it, and people on the black and white sides of censorship arguments frustrate me to no end. We humans can have a little censorship without descending into a dystopian novel. We actually do extremely well in the grey moral areas, partly because they're the only realistic areas to actually be in.

posted by dfleming at 07:05 AM on September 07, 2012

Hal, you and I had a very nice and very civil exchange on the subject of replay in baseball this week. Its the sort of exchange that this site carries so well. Now, I'm pretty passionate on the subject (I dislike the idea), but in a forum such as this it's best to leave the passions at home. I too have teams that I ardently support and teams that I vehemently dislike. I'm often tempted to make a snarky remark in the occasional thread, but I've learned over time to bite my tongue (or since I'm typing, my fingers) and just keep quiet.

I've said before that SpoFi reminds me of a bunch of people in a sports bar who are discussing the latest news in the sports world. Most of us try to contribute something when we know what we are talking about, otherwise we shut up. On many occasions, we will put a little bit of a "yo mama" into a comment, but it is always recognizable for what it is - just a way of having fun with your friends. The guys in the bar all have teams they support or dislike, and when those teams come up in discussion, there is often some passion and borderline insult. This is when the violator of decorum should be hooted down and sent to buy everyone a fresh beer. For those who moderate the site, I say hooted down, not muzzled. Note the offending comment or part thereof, point out why it is offensive, and only if the offender persists in such behavior, send him for a round (that is, a temporary ban - either on the particular thread or on the site in its entirety). Once in a while someone walks into the bar who for whatever reason has nothing to offer except inflammatory, off-topic, and negative comments. This is the time to call the bouncer and remove the offender to the nether reaches of a table next to the men's room.

Free speech comes with the responsibility to adapt such speech to the company present or situation at hand. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' metaphor of "Crying fire in a crowded theater" is applicable, as would be the consequences of calling someone an asshole when his fist is within striking distance of your nose. Many wise men have made reference to the "two ears, one mouth" idea - that one should listen twice as much as speaking. There is also the saying "engage brain before putting mouth in motion". The sorts of caution implied in such sayings should be observed on a site like this, but the idea of patience and understanding should serve equally.

posted by Howard_T at 03:36 PM on September 07, 2012

The very fact that you said "They would work on you and most long-timers"- and yet still my comment was edited- says you don't actually believe that.

That's not true. Your comment was edited because that's been SportsFilter policy since day one and we adopted the policy from MetaFilter. We never considered another approach until you objected because it never was an issue with anybody.

We will stop making partial edits to comments.

As for deleting comments, we're still going to do that in the extremely rare instances where it's necessary. Websites that never do it become cesspools.

posted by rcade at 04:08 PM on September 07, 2012