12/03/24
July 05, 2010
Why not Canada? : A decade ago, with the loonie tanking and the NHL expanding to non-traditional hockey markets, Canadian fans fretted about the possible extinction of all the country’s NHL franchises, save for the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques had already moved to become the Phoenix Coyotes and Colorado Avalanche, respectively, when American George Gillett Jr. was introduced as the Montreal Canadiens’ new owner in January of 2001. He felt compelled to ease the tension by saying: “These are the Montreal Canadiens, not the Oklahoma City Canadiens.” Fast-forward 9 years. Today, fans are talking about the possibility of a seventh franchise in Canada to go with the thriving 6, whether by expansion or relocation. The assumption – it’s not if, but when. A joint Globe and Mail/TSN project studied four Canadian markets – Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City and the Greater Toronto Area – with the goal of determining which would be most realistic for an NHL franchise. Each market will be reported separately in the next four instalments of a six-part series, both with a story in The Globe and a segment on TSN’s SportsCentre.
posted by tommytrump to hockey at 01:57 PM - 27 comments
Expansion is not the answer.
Moving the weak bankrupt club(s) would be a start.
Phoenix & Nashville, I'm looking at you.
Atlanta, Miami, don't advise your players to sign 5 year leases on apartments.
posted by tommybiden at 02:50 PM on July 05, 2010
Quebec City and Winnipeg.
The NHL doesn't need any more soft expansion teams where the crowd is more into heat waves than ice hockey. Bettman at least should have learned that by now.
Get the teams out of the South, where it's primarily transplants that care about hockey and go to hockey games. Send these teams north to a more appreciative audience that knows something about hockey and its rules, and care about its history.
posted by roberts at 03:27 PM on July 05, 2010
I think the most obvious places are Winnipeg and Toronto. Winnipeg is in the early throes of large corporate growth and Toronto is, well, big enough for two teams. Also it's population has been growing at a high rate. I think Quebec City is probably just too small to support a team corporately. Hamilton is basically Toronto.
I think this is inevitable. The Canadian teams, (with perhaps the exception of Edmonton) Detroit and New York carry this league. Absolutely carry it. Eventually you have to go to the markets that want your product. Don't you?
Maybe not - maybe it's better for some of these guys to have a loss leader on their books. Take your parking money, food and ancillary revenue under another company, and take a big loss on the team itself - ah, these guys are pretty creative. Owners of negative revenue teams still seem to have pretty big houses.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:38 PM on July 05, 2010
I don't understand why there are three teams in the New York City area (Islanders, Rangers, Devils) and only one in Toronto.
Even as a Leaf fan, I know Toronto is the first place you put a team in Canada.
There are more than enough hockey fans in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA), and the demand for tickets would be huge.
As a Leaf fan, it would also force two things:
1) Competition for ticket prices.
When you have a team as bad as the Leafs, with ticket prices so damn high, and it still sells out, you know that ANY competition for ticket prices by a 2nd Toronto team has to help out us beleaguered Leaf fans.
2) Competition for results.
The common complaint is that Leaf management doesn't really care about hockey results, just revenue results. I don't believe it myself, but if there was any hint of complacency in the front office, it would be eliminated if another team might start stealing the mind share of the Leaf fans.
posted by grum@work at 04:10 PM on July 05, 2010
Two steps to make TheQatarian a happy hockey fan:
1) Move Nashville's team to Winnipeg. 2) Have Minnesota and Winnipeg swap divisions.
This puts Winnipeg in a division with three other Canadian teams, and puts Minnesota back with its traditional rivals (Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis), all of which are closer in distance than their closest geographic division rival now (Colorado). Then maybe you can swap Columbus and Toronto and have a full reunion of the old Norris division, but I'd happily settle for the above.
posted by TheQatarian at 04:24 PM on July 05, 2010
Winnipeg is in the early throes of large corporate growth
I'd like to see NHL here again but there's no "large corporate growth" at all. Our growth is due to immigration and employment growth mirrors this. New construction bears this out - the only major construction in the past 10 years has been the arena, new hydro building (Manitoba government) and the planned new football stadium - all are either 100% taxpayer dollars or a good portion thereof (no individual corporate construction).
Our fan support will never be questioned but we have a much smaller percentage of families that would be able to part with $4K per season ticket than do Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Montreal, or Vancouver.
Two steps to make TheQatarian a happy hockey fan
Any chance we can vote TheQatarian in as NHL Commisioner? Both make a lot of sense for the fan and probably the NHL's bottom line.
posted by cixelsyd at 05:26 PM on July 05, 2010
Then maybe you can swap Columbus and Toronto and have a full reunion of the old Norris division.
Don't even think that.
Ottawa, Montreal, the Quebec Panthers Nordiques, the Hamilton/Kitchener/Waterloo/London/Toronto (wherever) Thrashers Blackberries/Timbits and Toronto, now there is a division.
posted by tommybiden at 05:33 PM on July 05, 2010
Absolute genius, TheQatarian. I grew up hating the Leafs, cursing their existence and wishing a plethora of afflictions on their players and fans. Now, I nothing them...I don't ever think about them during the season, the Wings hardly ever play them, so I just have no feelings for them at all, I just feel sorry for their fans now instead of laughing at their misfortunes...and that makes me sad. I want to spit venom and spew obscenities at them again before I die...
posted by MeatSaber at 05:52 PM on July 05, 2010
I grew up hating the Leafs
Me the opposite, can probably still name most of the players from the early 70's. Completely lost interest in them when the Jets first arrived here.
I now feel sympathy for Leafs fans. Hopefully management will avoid any more Phil Kessel for the future type trades (um, Brian Burke is a Hockey genius?) and they can build something via the draft after the next 2 or 3 losing seasons.
posted by cixelsyd at 06:31 PM on July 05, 2010
Canada deserves to claim as many hodad US-based franchises for it own as it wants, just on the merits of the shred of sanity it possesses regarding debt in general and the governance of the banking sector.
posted by beaverboard at 06:42 PM on July 05, 2010
Any chance we can vote TheQatarian in as NHL Commisioner? Both make a lot of sense for the fan and probably the NHL's bottom line.
As long as homeslice doesn't touch my Hurricanes, he has my vote.
posted by NoMich at 06:58 PM on July 05, 2010
As long as homeslice doesn't touch my Hurricanes, he has my vote.
I think any franchise that has won a Stanley Cup gets a pass (at least for now) ;-)
posted by tommybiden at 08:38 PM on July 05, 2010
As long as homeslice doesn't touch my Hurricanes
Speaking as one who grew up in Hartford, there's something funny about that statement.
posted by tahoemoj at 08:42 PM on July 05, 2010
As long as homeslice doesn't touch my Hurricanes, he has my vote.
During those desolate times when Minnesota didn't have a team, I felt that any city where snow in the forecast would cause school closings should not have an NHL team. However, I can tolerate their presence now that the State of Hockey has a team again. So you're Hurricanes are safe, but we can probably find another team to move to Hartford.
posted by TheQatarian at 09:17 PM on July 05, 2010
I think any franchise that has won a Stanley Cup gets a pass (at least for now) ;-)
Looks like Tampa Bay gets a free pass too.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:26 PM on July 05, 2010
Looks like Tampa Bay gets a free pass too.
Yes, and Dallas as well.
Check with Commissioner Qatarian to confirm this ruling.
posted by tommybiden at 09:35 PM on July 05, 2010
Any city where snow in the forecast would cause school closings should not have an NHL team
Atlanta. Move the Thrashers to Hartford.
posted by roberts at 09:37 PM on July 05, 2010
Self-correcting my grammar: "you're" should be "your" in my last comment. A commissioner-nominee should have his grammar straight. :-)
We now return to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress...
posted by TheQatarian at 09:38 PM on July 05, 2010
Any city where snow in the forecast would cause school closings should not have an NHL team
Atlanta. Move the Thrashers to Hartford.
Any city where snow causes your arena's roof to collapse should not have an NHL team. Hartford is out.
posted by Demophon at 10:20 AM on July 06, 2010
Hartford is in. Shoddy construction combined with poor design is why the roof collapsed.
posted by apoch at 10:49 AM on July 06, 2010
Absolute genius, TheQatarian. I grew up hating the Leafs, cursing their existence and wishing a plethora of afflictions on their players and fans.
I missed that train. I only recieved inherited Leafs hatred but even that was quickly forgotten. Of course, it didn't help having the Avalanche around to focus all my hatred upon.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:04 AM on July 06, 2010
Hartford is in. Shoddy construction combined with poor design is why the roof collapsed.
The fact that it was allowed to happen (in a building that was only 3 years old) should be enough to prevent them from having a team. The fact that the city shuts down after 5pm and there is no night life what-so-ever also should prevent it from getting a major league team. They should limit major league teams to major league cities, and Hartford is not one. The entire state of CT is just a cross roads on the way from Boston to NYC. (this comes from someone who has lived in CT and currently works only 10 minutes north of Hartford)
posted by Demophon at 12:03 PM on July 06, 2010
I wonder how many Leaf-hating Leaf fans would jump ship to a new Toronto area team in the first week.
posted by billsaysthis at 12:04 PM on July 06, 2010
The fact that the city shuts down after 5pm and there is no night life
Based on this logic the Senators need to be moved also ...
posted by cixelsyd at 12:46 PM on July 06, 2010
I wonder how many Leaf-hating Leaf fans would jump ship to a new Toronto area team in the first week.
Not me.
That said, I'd also support a new team by watching their games (or going to them, if the prices are right), and cheering them on against every other team except the Leafs.
They should limit major league teams to major league cities, and Hartford is not one.
Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary and Edmonton are not "major league cities" by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd find it hard to call Buffalo or Columbus one either. However, all of them are cold-weather cities, and at least have a history of people playing hockey in them.
posted by grum@work at 12:53 PM on July 06, 2010
They should limit major league teams to major league cities, and Hartford is not one.
Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary and Edmonton are not "major league cities" by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd find it hard to call Buffalo or Columbus one either. However, all of them are cold-weather cities, and at least have a history of people playing hockey in them.
I can not speak to the viability of those cities (and you are correct, I would not necessarily call them "major league cities" either). However I do not see the point of moving a team into a market that has already failed as an NHL market once, and currently can barely reach an average of 1/3 of capacity for their AHL team. The Wolfpack finished 18th out of 29 teams in the AHL, with only 4,188 fans per game while the XL Center (formerly the Hartford Civic Center), with new roof in-tact, holds over 15,000 (per wikipedia).
Hartford is a commuters market that can barely support an AHL team. Even when given the chance to host a "major league" event game last fall, they only drew a little over 10,000 for a Celtic preseason game. I do not see an NHL team being able to thrive as more than a middle of the pack occasional playoff appearing team. I would rather see a team return to one of the Canadian markets where the fans will hopefully properly appreciate it as opposed to returning to Hartford where it will just be a second (or third) fiddle to the Rangers and Bruins and the UConn basketball teams.
An interesting aside that I would like to point out from the AHL attendance figures, there are several warm weather non-traditional hockey markets that stand above Hartford. Also the Hamilton market that everyone points to as a key market to return hockey to Canada is only 3 spots higher than Hartford (and behind non-traditional markets such as Houston and San Antonio) with about 200 more fans per game than Hartford.
posted by Demophon at 04:29 PM on July 06, 2010
Winnipeg should be a no-brainer. There's a huge land gap between Toronto and Alberta. Quebec and Hamilton could be workable; the question is from where to get the three teams. I'm not sure expanding past 30 clubs is the correct way.