April 16, 2003

Why is Jeremy Roenick playing in game four tonight?: Alexander Mogily isn't. He's been scratched because of concussion-like symptoms and yet there hasn't been a peep about suspending Roenick. Hell, this article doesn't even mention his name.

Here are the (loaded) questions for discussion: Shouldn't the punishment (nil, not even a whistle) fit the crime (at least one OT and one game without the best player on the ice)? What more does JR have to do to earn the dirty-player tag (and consequences)? Do Pat Quinn and Co. need to start "whining" to draw attention to this? Why has no one asked these questions?

posted by 86 to hockey at 12:56 PM - 25 comments

i was ok with the non-call, assuming mogilny only needed stitches, not a neurologist, and it seemed like a accidental high-stick. but considering the 'legal' but head-hunting hits JR has laid out this year, and in years past, i think its high time he got the repeat offender label, and the punishment to go along with it. if he gets by because of his spokeman status, the bettman needs to seriously check himself, but thats another post. its intriguing that Quinn hasn't said much, or atleast i haven't heard anything. probably a playoff coach's ploy, not to give the other side ammo/motivation. but when the best playoff performer this year goes down with zero consequences for the other team, somethings not right. I like the idea of punishment fitting the crime, but that would only work in a 'perfect' sports world. if some softy goes down for the series, the guy who dished it out shouldn't have to wait for the other guy to return.

posted by garfield at 01:07 PM on April 16, 2003

Why has no one asked these questions? Because the entire universe outside of Toronto knows it was an accident. Not only that, it was Mogilny who knocked Roenick over. Give me a break.

posted by Succa at 01:11 PM on April 16, 2003

sure, i'll give you a break...for being wrong. check the rules: any high stick the draws blood should be penalized, the degree of which is left to the refs discretion.

posted by garfield at 01:31 PM on April 16, 2003

I'm sure Corson will be perfectly ready to step in for Mogilny anyway. Hey, why not? Oh.

posted by Samsonov14 at 01:32 PM on April 16, 2003

Succa, I'm not a Toronto fan and I'm not in Toronto. Even if it was an accident, which I think it was, Roenick needs to be punished. Instead, there isn't a penalty, there is no suspension and there isn't even talk of either. Why he's allowed to slash the opponents star player in the chin causing a gash and concussion and walk away is beyond me. I love gritty play and hard hits. It's my favorite part of the game, but take Mogilny, add in the Modano/Modano incidents and I start to see less grit and more dirt. And dirty players need to face the music. I accept it as part of having a player like Barnaby or Kasper on my team that they will receive no benefit of the doubt from refs, reporters or fans, but I wonder why JR gets away with it. His accidental high stick caused the Leafs to be shorthanded for the OT and now game four (at least). Mogilny has been (without argument) Toronto's best player in the series and (with argumet) one of the best performers in the playoffs as a whole. His loss hampers the Leafs in obvious ways and coupled with other injuries leaves them without significant portions of their offense. For JR to skate off without so much as a minor or an article questioning his play is questionable. So, I'm questioning it.

posted by 86 at 01:48 PM on April 16, 2003

a double minor penalty for all contact that causes an injury, whether accidental or careless, in the opinion of the Referee. Kind of ambiguous, that "opinion of the Referee" part. Remember that Mogilny tripped Roenick, which could technically have been a penalty itself. I'm just sayin'. I would have had no problem with a penalty being called, but they chose not to. Everyone on the ice saw what happened. But penalty or not, the insinuation that Roenick should be suspended for an obvious accident is completely and utterly laughable. Only in Leaf-land, I tell ya....

posted by Succa at 01:50 PM on April 16, 2003

Sorry, I shouldn't be so flippant, but how do you suspend an accident? What message is sent to the player? "Don't commit accidents!" ?? If it was eye for an eye all the time, there wouldn't be anyone left to play. Bertuzzi would be suspended the entire series for taking out MacInnis. Whoever fired the shot that Antropov blocked with his ankle would be sitting out the rest of the post-season. And on and on. I'm exaggerating of course, but you get my point.

posted by Succa at 01:55 PM on April 16, 2003

Succa, I hear it all the time that players are responsible for their sticks, so that is why I think he should be called and/or suspended. You say Mogilny tripped him, but I've watched that play over and over (the glory that is Tivo) and it could go either way on who tripped who. Still, I think it's beside the point because he was reckless with his stick and the best player in the Eastern playoffs is now out. I appreciate your exaggerations, but let me flip them around. If a player tries to chop a stick with a slash, misses and breaks a wrist, it's technically an accident, but still a penalty and warrants a suspension. The same is true when a player tries to lift a stick and catches and opponent in the face. This is the case especially if that player has a history. If it had been a player other than Roenick, with the same history of dirty, injury-causing plays, accident or not, it would have been called or at least questioned. JR has now taken out at least three star players. That's more than Barnaby, Kasper, Ulf Samuelsson, or anyone else I can remember and people still defend it as an accident. He's a dirt-bag, hotel-trashing, loud-mouth douche and he at least deserves any negative publicity he can get. And let me say it again, I'm not anywhere near Leaf-land. I haven't seen or heard any Leaf fans (with the exception of Garfield's response) question this. I haven't seen an article from the Friends of The Leafs in the media. No one has said a thing, except me, non-Toronto fan, living in New Jersey, sulking because my Rangers aren't in the playoffs. So, whatever you do, don't pin this on them. That would be too easy. Oh off topic, but whatever: What do you think? Is Snow legit or some sort of super-padded, cheating goalie?

posted by 86 at 02:25 PM on April 16, 2003

All season accidental high sticks were called. I can hear JD now, rambling about stick responsibility. And thats that. Surely you remember the blood = penalty campaign in the early 90s. I'm pretty sure that still stands. And let me qualify 'the best playoff performer' - best offensive performer. J.S. Gigs is the best performer overall. Snow is not legit. Though I did hear an interesting rumor that J.S. Gigs uses the same pads. Any truth to that?

posted by garfield at 02:57 PM on April 16, 2003

You say Mogilny tripped him, but I've watched that play over and over (the glory that is Tivo) and it could go either way on who tripped who. I'm not sure how that's possible, as Roenick had his back turned. Al-Mo certainly didn't mean to slewfoot JR, but I put the blame on him for the collision. If a player tries to chop a stick with a slash, misses and breaks a wrist, it's technically an accident That would be reckless stick use. The evildoer here is the guy swinging his stick intentionally and carelessly at an opposing player. This case is different. JR's stick hit Mogilny's chin not because of any reckless stickwork, but rather the positioning of both players when they collided. I mean, you saw the replay a hundred times. How was JR supposed to NOT hit him in the chin, based on how he fell? How could he have done something different to avoid it? He was just skating through the neutral zone! In contrast, let's say Mogilny got hurt by a careless backhand clearing attempt, in which Roenick's stick hit him in the mush on the upswing. Then I could see it. Roenick is the doer of the action here. He swung his stick carelessly. But in this case I simply can't see this as anything but an unfortunate accident. And let me say it again, I'm not anywhere near Leaf-land. I wrote the first message before I saw your post. For some reason I had you pegged as a Leaf fan. My apologies. Let me also say that I haven't heard any Leaf fans calling for Roenick's head. As for Snow...I think he's played quite well actually. Ottawa needs to get some more bodies in front of him, namely Varada. Snow hasn't let in any soft goals, which is pretty much all you can ask from a guy whose team is only playing with 4 defencemen.

posted by Succa at 03:04 PM on April 16, 2003

Hey! I qualified my comment about best playoff perfomer... I said he was the best in the East. Agreed, the Gizzer takes it overall, but Mogilny has to be considered for the spot in his confernce. And I haven't seen the evidence on J.S. pads so far, but maybe he just wears it better. I'll keep an eye out for that one. Succa, we'll have to agree to disagree, but watch out for JR if the Sens and Flyers meet. He'll headhunt everyone and anyone, mark my words. That bastard is a bastard. By the way, following through on a shot (or I imagine a clearing attempt) and clipping a player is not a penalty, according to John Davidson's contacts at the league. So, that wouldn't be a penalty though I've seen it called against "dirtyish" players. Berards eye injury back when he was a Leaf is the best example I can give. The Sen on that play should not have been penalized. As for Snow, screw him too. Maybe I just hate everyone. Maybe I'll get over that next year. Maybe the Rangers will make the playoffs and my disposition will change. Maybe next year! Clap-clap clap-clap-clap. Maybe next year!

posted by 86 at 03:14 PM on April 16, 2003

clearing attempt, shot attempt, check attempt. if the stick draws blood, its a penalty. the only loop hole i can see would be the injured player being careless. 86, you got a link for that JD dish?

posted by garfield at 03:31 PM on April 16, 2003

Rule 61 - High Sticks A "high stick" is one which is carried above the height of the opponent's shoulders. A player is permitted accidental contact on an opponent if the act is committed as a normal windup or follow through of a shooting motion. (a) Any contact made by a stick on an opponent above the shoulders is prohibited and a minor shall be imposed subject to section (b) of this Rule. (b) When a player carries or holds any part of his stick above the shoulders of the opponent so that injury results, the Referee shall: (i) Assess a double minor penalty for all contact that causes an injury, whether accidental or careless, in the opinion of the Referee. (ii) Assess a match penalty to a player, who in the opinion of the Referee attempted to injure an opponent. (See Rule 43 - Attempt to Injure.) (iii) Assess a match penalty to a player, who in the opinion of the Referee deliberately injured an opponent. (See Rule 52 - Deliberate Injury of Opponents.) I'm pretty sure rule (bi) should have been in effect ("whether accidental or careless") - so it should have been a double-minor. I'm on the fence about teh suspensions, though. I'll have to see the replay again. I'd like to point out that Jope Thornton has a history of careless use of his stick (not necessarily with intent to injure, just kind of being reckless), and he's been suspended for it several times. If J.R. wasn't being trippped by Mogilny, he should be suspended. He is a cheap-shot artist. Again, I'll reserve final judgement until I've seen the replay a few more times. (rule taken from NHLOfficials.com, which sadly has not put up any new referee screensavers since the hilarious Don Koharski one)

posted by Samsonov14 at 03:51 PM on April 16, 2003

watch out for JR if the Sens and Flyers meet. He'll headhunt everyone and anyone, mark my words. That bastard is a bastard. Heh. They met last year in the first round, and I know exactly what you're talking about. I was at one game where Roenick decided that he was going to spend the better part of the second period punching Chara in the face. He'd just skate up to him, punch him, and skate away. Several shifts of this. Mindboggling...of all the players to pick... Anyway, the happy ending is that they had to scrape JR off the ice and give him a few stitches when Chara decided to retaliate. I like JR though, I really do. I think on the whole he's one of the better personalities in a league that's short on charisma. But he does have a tendency towards cheap hits and that's not cool. And: when the hell are the Wings going to get some bodies in front of Giggy? He's seeing every shot clean. Get the bodies flailing! That's how you score goals in the playoffs.

posted by Succa at 03:55 PM on April 16, 2003

Succa, have you seen the "Rooming with Roenick" commercials? I'm assuming you haven't. It's impossible to like J.R. after seeing them. Impossible.

posted by Samsonov14 at 04:09 PM on April 16, 2003

"Rooming with Roenick" commercials *shudder* Got a link? Haven't seen 'em.

posted by Succa at 04:34 PM on April 16, 2003

Here's the InDemand write-up on Rooming With Roenick, but it doesn't do it justice because it fails to include the phrases, "made my eyes bleed", "forced me to stick forks in my ears", "torture" or "was fired for crimes against humanity". And another nice find: WA-WA! (Video link, especially for Succa as it's about the Senators)

posted by 86 at 05:13 PM on April 16, 2003

I was wrong. No suspension was needed, that Tucker hit in the opening moments solved everything. Perfect.

posted by 86 at 06:31 PM on April 16, 2003

I'm a Leaf fan through and through, and I'd have been embarrassed if they gave Roenick a penalty/suspension for that high-stick incident. It was an accident, and I'm glad the referee used his "opinion" properly. That said, the hit by Tucker in the first period was a beauty. A little late, but still a beauty. Just watching Roenick slowly slide down the boards after the hit reminded me of all the times I've decked him in games. NHL 2002 video games, that is.

posted by grum@work at 06:35 PM on April 16, 2003

The rooming with Roenick stuff made me laugh the first time I saw the "what's on?" hockey whats next? hockey what's after that? hockey bit, but then the feelings of forks in the ears, eyes bleeding, cutting my head off, etc took over.

posted by Bernreuther at 06:54 PM on April 16, 2003

Pat Flatley! There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Anyway, great links all. And I'll hand it to Tucker for an absolutely surreal hit on JR. For what it's worth, Cherry thinks JR hit Mogilny on purpose. What a surprise.

posted by Succa at 07:01 PM on April 16, 2003

Actually, that's a pretty big surprise. Consider the following: Mogilny = for'ner = evil Roenick = American kid = good Slew-footing a guy = dastardly Staying down on the ice = wimpy The formula says that Cherry should have sided with Roenick, not Mogilny.

posted by grum@work at 08:55 PM on April 16, 2003

The formula says that Cherry should have sided with Roenick, not Mogilny. There's a variable you forgot: Mogilny = Leaf Roenick = Flyer It's like multiplying the formula by -1. Flips everything.

posted by Succa at 12:01 AM on April 17, 2003

Seeing the Pat Flatley ref, I have to ask: I bought a couple of those mixed-bag packs of hockey cards from the dollar store, and got an 84-85 Danny Gare with the Wings. What ever happened to that guy? 300+ goals in like 8-9 seasons, and I never heard of him?

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:02 AM on April 17, 2003

Danny Gare? He retired due to back problems. link

posted by tj at 11:49 AM on April 17, 2003

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