11/21/24
December 17, 2005
Outside looking in: One of the greatest sources of true heat during the Hot Stove season is arguing about who should be in the Hall of Fame. You just don't get the same kind of passion when discussing the Hall of Fame in the other sports. For baseball fans, it's a pastime in itself. So I thought it would be fun to come up with a team of the best eligible guys NOT in the Hall of Fame...
Excellent post justgary...I'm not going to post a "lineup", but here's a few names that came to my mind: Ryne Sandberg Dale Murphy Alan Trammell Lou Whitaker Ron Santo Andre Dawson Gil Hodges Dave Concepcion.
posted by stockman1021 at 05:35 PM on December 17, 2005
Ryne Sandberg is in the HOF. I believe he was inducted last summer.
posted by skydivemom at 05:42 PM on December 17, 2005
I can't speak to most of the above, although I strongly agre about Dawson and Santo. Dale Murphy is not a HoFer, though. He had a few great years, but his career numbers are nothing special. To me, the biggest travesty is Jack Morris. More wins than any pitcher in the 1980s, and one of the best big-game pitchers in history. (Game 7, 1991, anyone?) People scoff at his ERA, but consider that he spent the majority of his career at the hitter-friendly Tiger Stadium. The man was a winner, pure and simple, and he belongs among the elites.
posted by TheQatarian at 05:51 PM on December 17, 2005
Tiger Stadium was a pitcher-friendly park for most of Morris' career. Yes, it was a good park for home runs, but not for overall offense. Morris had a (relatively) high ERA because he wasn't a great pitcher. There's a reason his park and league adjusted ERA is only 5% better than average. What was great was Morris' run support, which was 7% better than that of the average pitchers. Not quite Catfish Hunter level run support, but way above average nonetheless). Run Support has more to do with a pitcher's so-called won-loss record than any other factor. That's why Morris has a much better "record" than those who were much better pitchers. Steve Rogers, for example, was a terrific pitcher, much better than Morris, who had terrible run support. And there is no such thing as a winner, in baseball or in life.
posted by spira at 06:15 PM on December 17, 2005
I am just glad that Pete Rose was left off the list, the guy cut a deal to save his skin and stop the gamblimg on baseball investigation, and then disengenously goes in with Pony and mastercard to promote his book and squeeze his way into the hall. More than that, the guy signed anything you could write on with a sharpie, and then (OOPS) forgot to pay tax on it, he plead guilty to criminal tax evasion. It hasn't changed much either. If you want to meet Pete, your best shot is to go to the Turf Club at Santa Anita Racetrack, just wait until he gets a couple of drinks down, and he might sign a losing bet ticket, he did for a friend of mine.
posted by Reaper at 08:53 PM on December 17, 2005
Thanks Spira. You just inspired me to kill myself.
posted by DudeDykstra at 08:54 PM on December 17, 2005
Let's leave Pete Rose out of this. We can put drug addicts in the Hall, and claim that their on the field efforts is what matters. Why can't Pete's name be there?
posted by kcfan4life at 10:33 PM on December 17, 2005
Ryne Sandberg is in the HOF. I believe he was inducted last summer. Comment icon posted by skydivemom at 5:42 PM CST on December 17 So he is...my bad.
posted by stockman1021 at 10:58 PM on December 17, 2005
Pete Rose belongs in the hall. His plaque should spell out all the details of how he gambled on baseball, right after he is recognized as the all time hit leader. I met the guy, I hate the guy, a self motivated ass who collected the most base hits all time. For God's sake, this is enshrinement into the ultimate record book, not heaven.
posted by SAVANX at 01:31 AM on December 18, 2005
Ever noticed the two guys with the most hits (Rose and Cobb) were also two of the biggest assholes? Just something I often ponder!
posted by Big D Alexander at 07:25 AM on December 18, 2005
If we knew all the facts about the men in the hall,rose would be one of the guys.
posted by dan the husker fan at 09:54 AM on December 18, 2005
There's a certain catcher who played for 11 seasons, was a 7 time all-star, had 3 gold gloves, 1 MVP, and 1 plane crash. Can't say he's better than Torre or Simmons, but his BA was 23 points higher than Fisk - who is in the Hall. Thanks skydivedad for the Gil McDougald mention. Unfortunately, that line drive off of Herb Score's head took all the desire to play out of him. He hung around for a couple more seasons then quit to become athletic director at Fordham U.
posted by drevl at 11:08 AM on December 18, 2005
Can't we please stop hearing the argument that Rose belongs in the Hall because there are other bad people in the Hall? Rose is not banned from the Hall because of how bad a guy he was; he's banned because he broke baseball's number one rule, the rule that's drilled into players' heads over and over from the time they entered professional baseball, the rule that's posted in every clubhouse. It has nothing to do with morality whatsoever. I'm not saying that you can't argue that Rose belongs in the Hall; I just want to stop hearing these off-topic arguments like "other bad guys are in the Hall" and "what about drug users." Rose's suspension is based on the fact that by gambling on his team's baseball games, he created doubt as to whether his intent was to win the most games or win the games he bet the most on. And, by the way, I think the Hall should have an exhibit on Rose, detailing all his accomplishments and flaws. Just because I wouldn't vote him in as a member doesn't mean I think the Hall should airbrush him out of baseball history; I think just the opposite: Rose is a hugely important figure in baseball history and the Hall should tell his tale. And dude, I hope I haven't inspired you to try too hard. All I meant was is that while there are lots of people who work hard and excel, success in life is determined in good part by luck, and labeling people winners because of luck is distateful. People should be applauded for their efforts, not for the outcome of their efforts.
posted by spira at 11:10 AM on December 18, 2005
JG Help me out here. Can we get this thread back on track. What is your lineup?
posted by skydivedad at 11:28 AM on December 18, 2005
There are quite a few Tigers who should be in the hall, Alan Trammel, Lou Wittaker, Jack Morris. I think Trammel deserves it most, as long as they don't look at his manager career.....
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:48 AM on December 18, 2005
Topic? I think of Jack Morris belonging in the Hall the same way I see Roger Maris there. Both had above-average (multi-team) careers that by themselves make them borderline cases, with incredible one-off highlights that could put them over the top. They also both have plenty of statistics that would (and have) keep them out of the Hall, and I understand the debate. Personally, I think they both belong in. But not before Bert Blyleven. (Yes, I'm still beating the drums for him.) We will never stop discussing this. It's fun.
posted by chicobangs at 11:54 AM on December 18, 2005
Catcher - Thermon Munson. Torre caught 903 games but 1302 games at other positions. Also, no gold gloves. Munson had 7 all-star, 3 gold glove and 1 MVP in11 seasons. Simmons had 8 all-star, 0 gold glove and 0 MVP in 21 seasons. 1st - Mattingly slightly over Hernandez. They are the two slickest fielding first basemen that I've ever seen and both have 1 MVP. However, I am a Yankee fan so this close race goes to Donny Baseball. 2nd- Roberto Alomar SS- Vern Stephens. would not have thought of him, so thanks, skydivedad. 3rd- Ron Santo - nuff said LF- Jim Rice very slightly over Minoso. That 502 SLG is just too much to pass up, not to mention those 8 all-star and 1 MVP seasons. That White Sox outfield of Minnie and Jungle Jim Rivera was fun to watch. CF- Dale Murphy. I hate leaving Fred Lynn off the list, but Murphy gets my vote. RF- Andre Dawson LH Pitcher- Billy Pierce RH Pitcher- Louie Tiant Closer- Lee Smith Utility- Gil McDougald
posted by drevl at 02:45 PM on December 18, 2005
i cant limit it to positions. if t.munsons not there shame on the voters,same with donnie baseball, and the goose,and im a yankee hater.drevel pudge fisk is in there for a lot more then his avg. which was pretty darn good. p.rose at this point does not need the hall to validate his career. other names: jim rice[come on],andre the hawk dawson,el tiante,,a. trammel,b, sutter,and l.whittaker.
posted by patsdynasty at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2005
Hey pats, I wasn't implying Fisk didn't belong. He was an absolute shoe-in and deserved in on the first ballot . I point him out because he and Thermon dominated the position for a decade and both should be in.
posted by drevl at 11:26 AM on December 19, 2005
sorry didnt mean to come down on you. in my book the fisk vesus munson battle/ debate turned me into a baseball fan,a yankee hater and a card carrying redsox nation member. they both should be in there side by side.
posted by patsdynasty at 08:58 AM on December 21, 2005
sorry didnt mean to come down on you. in my book the fisk vesus munson battle/ debate turned me into a baseball fan,a yankee hater and a card carrying redsox nation member. they both should be in there side by side.
posted by patsdynasty at 09:06 AM on December 21, 2005
JG Great Post, well writtin article, Thanks. OK, I'll play, but I have to admit I am not going to include a D_. Being a National League guy I can't even allow myself to say the word. I do wish to include a utility player coming off my bench. A much unappreciated talent. Catcher=Joe Torre I saw him play at Wrigley, scarey 1st= Kieth Hernadez 2nd= Lou Whitaker SS= Vern Stephens 3rd= Ron Santo (It's disgraceful to the Hall that he's not in) LF= Minnie Minoso CF= Dale Murphy (Why he's not in baffles logic) RF= Andre Dawson (See Santo Above) Rightie=Luis Tiant Leftie= Jim Kaat (Hey he belongs) Closer= Bruce Sutter (Another Cubbie not in) Utility Player= Gil McDougald (Utility Player that could play 5 positions well)