12/22/24
December 07, 2004
Bruce Lee - film star or sportsman?: "Lee owned more than 2,500 books on a variety of sports seemingly unrelated to martial arts, with relevant passages highlighted. He was undoubtedly way ahead of his time in the intellectual rigour he applied to his sport. (Come to think of it, he may have been ahead of his time in having a highlighter pen; I don't remember those in the early 70s.)" [from Martin Kelner in the Guardian]
Joe Pesci?
posted by jasonspaceman at 08:54 AM on December 07, 2004
"I'm a good shot, what do you want from me? I'm a good shot. " - Thierry Henry
posted by JJ at 09:18 AM on December 07, 2004
Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist ever not only for his time but also for the present and the future, he also did not want people to call him “ movie star.” He thought the word itself was an illusion. He wanted to be called a good actor or a good martial artist instead. My personal opinion is that he was a genius of martial arts and that his style and ways of fighting were real and don’t get me wrong I mean movies are all rehearsals but some of those moves he could perform in real life encounters, this guy was always looking for perfection and in some aspect of his short life he achieved it. I was amazed when I found out that Jackie chan was one of his stunt men ( see enter the dragon, the cave action ) and that he chose his funny style because he didn’t want to be in the shadows of the deadly fighter ways that Bruce Lee protracted. Jet Lee uses his face expressions but too much computer animation and special effect doesn’t make up for skills even though he has a lot of that. “ Bruce Lee the greatest martial artist of all time.” , I for one think so.
posted by LROD at 09:56 AM on December 07, 2004
Bruce Lee: You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple. Joe Pesci: Funny? Funny how? I amuse you. I'm some kind of clown? Huh? How the fuck am I funny? Basically the same sentiment.
posted by dzot at 12:15 PM on December 07, 2004
[applause] LROD, welcome. [applause]
posted by garfield at 12:28 PM on December 07, 2004
I dunno, was he a fighter, dancer, or acrobat? If he was the greatest martial artist of all time how many competitions did he win, genuine, proper fights?
posted by Fat Buddha at 01:27 PM on December 07, 2004
Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist ever I have no doubt he was a phenomenal athelete, but as far as great martial artists, I doubt he was on the level of Helio or Royce Gracie.
posted by rocketman at 01:57 PM on December 07, 2004
what makes him great was his philosophical approach, through which he rejected traditional norms and challenged the attainment of perfection in form and method, manifested in jeet kun do's central tenet of striking while the opponent strikes, rather than taking on a fully defensive stance.
posted by garfield at 01:59 PM on December 07, 2004
Bruce Lee known as the founder of Jeet Kune Do, which isn’t really a martial arts style at all (or wasn’t, originally). Jeet Kune Do was more a method of approach, a way of looking at the martial arts with the intention of bringing them out of what Bruce saw as a rather hidebound and stale situation. The essence of the Jeet Kune Do philosophy can largely be brought down to one sentence: do what works, and know why it works. Royce Gracie, one of the greatest fighters I've seen!( I've seen almost all his figths ) I might be wrong but his best grappling move comes from Jet Kune Do ( see enter the dragon, beggining of the movie) never forget that.
posted by LROD at 02:21 PM on December 07, 2004
Dr Kano or the Gracies would comfortably eclipse Lee as "greatest martial artist ever". LROD: The Gracies started in the 50s, based off Judo and traditional forms of Jujitisu. Explain to me again how their best grappling move comes from a movie based out of Chinese traditions?
posted by rodgerd at 03:05 PM on December 07, 2004
Jeet Kune Do is a mix of boxing and grappling as well as kung fu and karate... don't be mistaken about this style of fighting for is not based just in chinese traditions, also Bruce Lee added 33 Known grappling moves to Jet kune Do before his death!, just for your personal Knowledge.
posted by LROD at 03:11 PM on December 07, 2004
I know who Bruce Lee is and what he did. I just think we're too close to his life to properly contextualize his importance as a martial artist. What effect has Bruce Lee's philosophy had on martial arts? How are these arts different now because of him? It would seem to me that he is more responsible for spreading many myths about martial arts through his movies.
posted by rocketman at 03:17 PM on December 07, 2004
re: philosophy - Lee's approach was non-conformist, in that it wasn't afraid to break with tradition and use whatever works, whatever the situation. To parapharase, his style "combines the best philosophies and training concepts from a variety of other martial arts styles into a functional system" and in essence "absorb what is useful from all systems and instructors." This was revolutionary at the time, and its impact has permeated throughout the martial arts world, as the multi-disciplined fighter is becoming commonplace, rather than the exception. To speak to the individual disciplines, I'm not sure if he managed to influence the traditions.
posted by garfield at 03:45 PM on December 07, 2004
Couldn't explain it better garfield, thanks for the help!.
posted by LROD at 06:16 PM on December 07, 2004
Oh god. Bwuce vs. Woyce has come to spofi. Can we please talk about something sensible and grounded in the real world, like whether Superman can beat up Godzilla?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:22 PM on December 07, 2004
I'll bet on Superman lil_brown!.
posted by LROD at 06:37 PM on December 07, 2004
I'd take King Geedorah over Superman. KG totally beat the shit out of Godzilla in Monster Zero, and I've always felt he's a lot like Batman, badass in all the right ways.
posted by rocketman at 09:28 PM on December 07, 2004
What effect has Bruce Lee's philosophy had on martial arts?Well, one could make a reasonable argument that he popularised Eastern martial arts in the West, and opened up teaching styles to Westerners. It woudn't be a very good argument, mind, given how widespread Judo and various forms of Karate had already become. Much more than that is pretty much hero-worship.
posted by rodgerd at 10:38 PM on December 07, 2004
the multi-disciplined fighter is becoming commonplace This I'll concede, but I don't know that I would necessarily attribute it to Bruce Lee. The multi-disciplined fighter, in my mind, seemed to appear more and more in the past 10 years after Royce Gracie opened the #10 can of whupass on everyone. I'm obviously biased towards BJJ, but it was developed by the Gracie boys basically engaging in no-holds-barred hand-to-hand combat and figuring out what works. Real-world application is what matters to me. I've said Bruce Lee was an outstanding athlete, and I believe that, but I've not seen what JKD can do man-to-man outside of edited motion pictures. That doesn't mean it's not effective, but I'd guess more people would use it in tournament fighting and it would be more widely taught if it gave a fighter a significant advantage. Even law enforcement and the military are teaching the fundamentals of BJJ in their hand-to-hand combat training. Aren't they in a damn good position to judge what works and what doesn't? Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is designed to subdue - not to harm - and eschews striking. It also emphasizes good technique over strength and size (though in the size column we can be sure Bruce Lee didn't dominate his opponents). One of the neatest things I've ever seen is a 120-pound woman take down and totally pwnZ0r a 200-pound man: first putting him on his ass, then putting him on his back, then putting him on his belly, and finally choking him with his own arm. And it all happened in about 45 seconds. Also, lbb: though spelled with an "R", it's pronounced "Hoyce." Cheerio.
posted by rocketman at 11:22 PM on December 07, 2004
Can I be the first to mention homo-eroticism?
posted by JJ at 03:58 AM on December 08, 2004
Yes.
posted by rocketman at 05:53 AM on December 08, 2004
rocket, UFC and Rolls Royce Gracie did put multi-disciplined fighting on the map, but I think Lee was responsible for the first blip on the radar screen. And here's why. Prior to the Lee's evolution, competitive jealousies between styles were paramount, as the question was, 'what is the best style?' With the integration of disciplines, this stylistic egoism has receded. But the Gracie's have been at it for a while (50 years?), so perhaps this progression has more than one epicenter.
posted by garfield at 08:16 AM on December 08, 2004
perhaps this progression has more than one epicenter. Darwin wasn't the only one who theorized evolution: he's just the guy who gets the credit, yo. And now I'm going to be chuckling at "Holls Hoyce" all day. Good discussion, garfield.
posted by rocketman at 09:30 AM on December 08, 2004
By the way, if you can point me to some additional JKD resources on the web (video of tournament matches, national organization), I'd love to see it.
posted by rocketman at 09:32 AM on December 08, 2004
sorry man, i'm fresh out of links. the boss is trying to impress his superiors with his team's year end numbers, and 'my best guy' just got dumped on. horrah corporate nincompoops! ( i don't know if i'm ridiculing myself or my boss with that one )
posted by garfield at 03:42 PM on December 08, 2004
But the Gracie's have been at it for a while (50 years?)Longer, according to this. The first major challenge between the Gracies and outside styles was in 1951; the Judo world and the Gracies have slightly different views on how it went.
posted by rodgerd at 04:22 PM on December 08, 2004
great links rodgerd!
posted by garfield at 04:44 PM on December 08, 2004
“Kimura then took Gracie down with an Osotogari followed by Kuzurekamishihogatame." Sound like anybody would give up to that, but not the Gracie’s they will go for the long run and even though that kimura guy used what’s being to be known as Royce best weapon the ARM BAR not even them Helio surrender. I remember when Royce Gracie fought Ken Shamrock, Royce got couple of broken ribs, almost lost an eye but when he applied that ARM BAR the fight was over!. Even though Shamrock made Royce retired after that terrible beating, I still believe that Royce Gracie was the best UFC champion ever.
posted by LROD at 07:09 PM on December 08, 2004
not even them Helio surrender Shouldn't that be spelled "Relio"? All your base are belong to us,
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:58 PM on December 09, 2004
No, see, the "H" becomes a "C", lbb. And the "E" in this case becomes an "S". So it's pronounced Cslio Gracie.
posted by rocketman at 06:34 AM on December 10, 2004
The Gracies are the greatest???????? Does anyone remember how Kazushi Sakuraba pounced Royce Gracie like a child (Gracie's corner threw in the towel)? He's pounced a couple of them including Renzo and Royler. He also beat Nino Schembri who is hailed as the future of Brazilian Jujitsu. Also of the 11 or so Gracies that are fighting in the Pride and UFC's, most have been beaten by several opponents: (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?firstname=&lastname=gracie&search=yes&nickname=&association=&weight=). There is an offer on the table from Donald Trump for 2.5 million for Rickson to fight Gokor Chivichyan (Gokor.com). Rickson says he won't fight because he and Gokor are friends. Gokor says money is money..so let's fight. Go to Sherdog.com and you'll see the BJJ fighters getting their butts kicked. BJJ is effective when the rules favor the grappler, but you can't call them the greatest fighters when they don't win in true no holds barred competitions. Hayastan (Armenians) grapplers beat the BJJ guys all day long (I've studied under both systems). Go down to their training facility in Los Angeles on Normandie and Sunset and watch the BJJ guys come their to train. The Armenians have a foundation of Judo, just like Sakuraba......and both are better than the Gracies. Also, the LAPD doesn't use BJJ techniques, it uses Hayastan at their Westchester training center.
posted by Ankoma at 04:48 AM on January 28, 2005
Bruce Lee is and was the greatest martial artist ever. Better than the master chojun miyagi, tatsuo shimabuku, gichen funakoshi, all of them. Bruce Lee never competed in martial arts tournaments becasue there is no point. Dont ever question his ability to fight though becasue in his adult years, and teen years, e never lost a fight, he beat up triads in his teeneage years. He is definitly better than helio or royce gracie or any other MMA or FCF. He invented probably the most practical style to date. A style which based on street fighting and its philosophies. This man could knock a 250lb. man on his ass with a punch only 1inch away. He could break a dangling board with a jump kick. He was a martial arts prodigy and its only a shame that he couls live to finish what he was destined to do.
posted by calebdeems at 06:55 AM on May 18, 2005
I'm trying to think of a modern analogy - a flim star who utters pearls of wisdom we don't yet understand, but that will form the basis for sporting psychology in the future. But now I can't get Happy Gilmore out of my head.