11/05/24
March 15, 2004
Iverson refuses to play off the bench.: Interim coach Chris Ford declined to start him, so Iverson declined to play. Meanwhile, even with a losing record of 28 wins and 39 losses, the Sixers are battling for the last playoff spot in the Eastern Conference.
posted by dusted to basketball at 11:05 AM - 34 comments
There's no "I" in playoffs, but there is a big one in Iverson.
posted by 86 at 12:02 PM on March 15, 2004
"I'm a starter," Iverson said. "Why would I come off the bench? I'm a starter. I've been a starter here for eight years. I'm a starter. I know in this league, and it has been with us as Sixers, that when a guy comes back off injury, if he's a starter, he starts." Love that attitude. Why do we even have a coach anymore? If the main players think like this, who needs anyone to tell them when to play? They just play whenever they want to and you have to pay them anyways. Nice deal he's got going on here. Sit his ass courtside for a few games to teach him about respect. If he wants respect as a "starter", he's got to earn it by showing respect to his coach and teammates. I don't care how good he is and how much he deserves to be the starter; it's the coach's team to decide on and if you can't grasp that, you can sit for a while. The NBA and parenting have gone in the same direction; parents/coaches have little ones running around thinking they own the place and noone knows how to show discipline anymore when the buttheads get out of line. If you don't stop this type of behaviour, it's going to get worse.
posted by dfleming at 12:28 PM on March 15, 2004
oliver_crunk: Speaking as one of the most avid NBA fans around, I can assure you that the NBA is not "doomed" because of Iverson's prima donna act. Every sport has players who think they're bigger than the game. Football has Terrell Owens and Warren Sapp but I don't think anybody is predicting the demise of the NFL because of their antics. Your opinion is colored by the statement "glad i've not watched too much NBA this season." The arrivals of Yao Ming, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony have the NBA well-stocked with more marketable personalities than any of the other three major sports. The NBA might be third in popularity among American sports fans, but internationally it's only getting more popular.
posted by Scott Carefoot at 12:35 PM on March 15, 2004
There's no "I" in playoffs, but there is a big one in Iverson. I think we should just start calling him Meverson. I seriously wonder how long Philthy is going to put up with all of the BS and continue to try to build a team around him. They're going nowhere while a few other teams in the East have made some strong acquisitions and improved quite a bit. So long as the Sixers continue to fawn of AI, they're just going to become more and more of a joke.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:39 PM on March 15, 2004
scott- you're right. but i once was an avid NBA fan. they lost my hard earned cash when this crap became acceptable. there's absolutely nothing going to be done about this behavior. iverson has been pulling this type of thing for years....the NBA and the sixer organization has done nothing to even attempt to cure it. in fact, all they've done is positively reinforce his antics with more money and coaching changes on demand. it's garbage that doesn't even approach what's going on in the NFL. if this was the NFL, iverson would have got cut, keyshawn johnson style. while there's no doubt there's troubling antics that are on par with some NBA antics...i'd love to see a big name NFL player pull a stunt that iverson pulled yesterday without serious repercusions. there's coaches in the NFL who would have had his ass on plane home. there's not one coach in the NBA who has the balls to do that to a high profile player. i've said it before....the NBA continues to wane in popularity in the US and though the international game might bring back some respect....the public will grow tired of these stunts and take their money elsewhere. iverson's selfishness cost the NBA a lot of fans yesterday. that's the star power at work in the NBA these days.
posted by oliver_crunk at 12:53 PM on March 15, 2004
Oh, and the Pistons extended their streak of holding opponents under 70 to 5 games. I know AI didn't play, I'm just sayin...
posted by MeatSaber at 01:11 PM on March 15, 2004
AI needs to start playing and stop bitching so I can win the fantasy basketball league ... otherwise I could care less about him.
posted by jasonspaceman at 01:23 PM on March 15, 2004
We should be talking about the Pistons. 5 games in a row under 70 is incredible. The only defense I can think of for Iverson is that (unlike, say, Keyshawn or T.O., or even Kobe) he's never misrepresented himself. He's always been the Alpha Mouth, and even though he has grown up a lot since he got into the league, he's never not been The Man, and so he's having a problem with temporarily not being The Man right now. I heard another part of the interview with him where he seemed a bit more understanding of the situation. His words were on the order of, "I've never not been the starter, and though I don't agree with how this has happened, I'm going to have to learn how to deal with this. It's just going to be hard." I think riding the pine for a few games won't hurt him (or the team) much at all. It'll calm him down, and maybe motivate him to improve in ways that mere practice wouldn't.
posted by chicobangs at 02:38 PM on March 15, 2004
We should be talking about the Pistons. 5 games in a row under 70 is incredible. Incredible indeed, esp. consider three of them were on the road, and with the exception of the AMe-less sixers and possibly Chicago, they weren't against opponents that typically struggle for points.
posted by Ufez Jones at 02:51 PM on March 15, 2004
The question is does Allen get fined for conduct detrimental to the team?
posted by lilnemo at 03:14 PM on March 15, 2004
I heard another part of the interview with him where he seemed a bit more understanding of the situation. His words were on the order of, "I've never not been the starter, and though I don't agree with how this has happened, I'm going to have to learn how to deal with this. It's just going to be hard." And we've already come up with an excellent way to acclimate Whinerson to the bench — by putting his ass there for a few games.
posted by wfrazerjr at 03:14 PM on March 15, 2004
At least Iverson dressed for the warmups...he needs all the practice on that pathetic jumpshot as he can get.
posted by bcb2k2 at 04:02 PM on March 15, 2004
Now, here's a thought: Iverson is very talented, but if you refuse to play, talent's irrelevant, right? So how come I can never luck into a gig like that? I can sit on the bench and not play basketball as good as Iverson can -- hell, I'd do it for half his pay, so sign me up!
posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:18 PM on March 15, 2004
whoa, slow down the Iverson bashing. Yes, these quotes make Iverson look bad but everyone knows AI has a thin skin. Ford should at least attempt to be diplomatic with AI (Ford's first move as coach was to tell AI what a problem he was. As an Iverson fan who knows his life story I think it's pretty reasonable for him to be thin skinned). Maybe Ford is right, but he's confusing a moral concern with a material concern. It's a bit like poking a snake with a stick, the snake bites you, and then saying "see, snakes are bad". Well yes, snakes are bad but you'll still wish you hadn't been bitten. I guess what I'm trying to say is Iverson has the 5th highest career scoring average in NBA history. These "problem" players, they are always able to thrive when they get traded (Webber in Sacramento, Barkley in Phoenix). Ford should be smart enough not to make his star player look bad since Iverson obviously has a lot of good to offer.
posted by Mike McD at 08:06 PM on March 15, 2004
Mike, I'll pull out the pertinent point here: It's a bit like poking a snake with a stick, the snake bites you, and then saying "see, snakes are bad." In what alternate reality is Chris Ford in the wrong here? Ford expected him to play, Ford's bosses pay Iverson to play. He doesn't want to play? Screw his ass and let him walk. Yeah, he scores a lot. He's also a prima donna punk who has no concept of a greater cause, i.e. winning ballgames. You know what we do with snakes? Grab a hoe and chop their damned heads off.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:02 PM on March 15, 2004
I think that coddling of Iverson is at the root of this and all the other things that make him a "problem" player. He doesn't need TLC and compassion, he needs to nut it up and act like a preofessional. Ford is doing what needs to be done, as at this point Philly can miss the playoffs without Iverson just as easily as with him. The great build a team around him experiment failed, so if wants a ring, he would have to go to some team as a piece of the puzzle, not the show (more than likely). All he is doing at this point is showing he is not capable of that.
posted by pivo at 09:11 PM on March 15, 2004
wfrazerjr, You missed the entire point of the story. The point is that Ford is confusing moral interests with material interests. The point of the story is that yes, Chris Ford, is correct from a moral perspective. But Ford will still suffer when he loses the best player on his team. I would think that Philly would have learned from their experience with Barkley. By taking this approach the 76er's will never get fair value for Iverson (and I'll say again, AI has a lot of good to offer). They'll be right were they were post-Barkley.
posted by Mike McD at 08:39 AM on March 16, 2004
You missed the entire point of the story. The point is that Ford is confusing moral interests with material interests. Ford's a new coach. He's got to show the players that he makes the decisions, not AI. Otherwise, he's going to get no respect and lose his own job. Do you really think that Ford should squander his own future as a coach so a selfish player can put himself first and the team second? I would think that Philly would have learned from their experience with Barkley. For every Barkley there is an Isiah Rider; great talent but who couldn't understand the concept of "what's good for the team is good for me." Iverson's going to have to change his point of view before he's ever the centerpiece of a championship team. He's not a winner with the attitude he has now. Regardless of his 30 ppg scoring ability, if he can't buy into the team concept he's going to spend his entire career on one, two round playoff teams.
posted by dfleming at 09:06 AM on March 16, 2004
For every Barkley there is an Isiah Rider I call BS on that. Rider was a good, okay player. Iverson and Barkley are a different breed. There's a reason AI was the #1 overall pick. Regardless of his 30 ppg scoring ability, if he can't buy into the team concept he's going to spend his entire career on one, two round playoff teams. The 76'ers already made it to the Finals with Iverson. Look, when Brown was in Philly there were problems, but they won. The players haven't changed, the coach has. That should give you some pause about Ford's approach.
posted by Mike McD at 09:17 AM on March 16, 2004
Let me just be clear about my point. Ford is picking a fight with Iverson. Ford's first move as coach was to come in an tell Iverson he was the problem. How would you feel? If you were widely recongized as one the 10 best people in the world at your profession, you had been a star for 10 years, you had taken your team to the finals and felt you had proven yourself, you were setting historical performance standards, and you got a new boss and the first thing he said is "You're the problem with this office", how would you feel? If your new boss was saying "You know what AI, Eric Snow not you, should get the plum jobs because he's actually better than you." I'm guessing you'd take it pretty poorly.
posted by Mike McD at 09:31 AM on March 16, 2004
No, I'm guessing I'd shut the hell up, do my job and when the opportunity presented itself I'd go to management and say, "I don't appreciate the way I'm being treated. Do something about it or I'm out of here." I wouldn't screw the rest of my teammates because my coach is a knob. I've always thought the Sixers were stupid for putting up with Iverson's petulance before, and I think they're stupid now. As for going to the finals with A-Me, I suspect that had a hell of a lot more to do with Coach Brown than Iverson. And I don't think I'm missing the entire point of the story, at least not the salient point to me. The bottom line is this — the coach runs the show. He's your boss. You don't like the coach, quit, just as anyone might if he or she didn't like his or her boss. But I don't guess Iverson has walked away from his contract, has he? Instead, he pulled a very public stunt to prove his point. To me, he's being a punk, and he doesn't deserve the respect he should get for being a tough, tremendous ballplayer.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:24 AM on March 16, 2004
Iverson is a great player, I don't think anyone is questioning that, but he's a baby. He's got the thinnest skin of any of the all-stars, and he's got a sense of entitlement after being coddled for years by Larry Brown and then Randy Ayers. He needs to suck it up and just play. Ford isn't helping the situation: he's insensitive, with poor people skills. Why would he so publicly antagonize Iverson? Everything he's done could have been accomplished with more tact and communication.
posted by dusted at 10:49 AM on March 16, 2004
No, I'm guessing I'd shut the hell up I don't believe it. I really don't believe if were one of the stars of your profession and a new boss came in and told you "you know what, you're the problem with this outfit" that you would just shut up about it. I also believe that if Iverson had "shut the hell up" when people told him he was a bum, he wouldn't be where he is now. Iverson has beat some long odds to make it and his personality obviously is part of why he succeeded.
posted by Mike McD at 11:08 AM on March 16, 2004
Iverson has beat some long odds to make it and his personality obviously is part of why he succeeded. Excuse my ignorance, but what long odds did he beat? Because he's small? Please...he's not the first small guard in the league, and there are many, many of them that succeeded without running off at the mouth all the time...
posted by MeatSaber at 11:21 AM on March 16, 2004
Long odds: 1. His biological father abandoned him and ended up in jail 2. Raised by a single mom 3. Michael Freeman, his defacto step-father, ended up in jail for dealing crack 4. Hampton, VA suffered through a severe reccesion in the 1980's when they closed the local shipyards 5. Arrested for a bowling alley brawl and sentenced to five years in prison (and FYI, being from VA, he got jobbed on that conviction) 6. He is small for the NBA 7. The odds for anyone to make the NBA are long I hate that people insist on simplfying players down to "he's a punk". It is just more complicated than that. He's married to his girlfriend from 11th grade. He supports some 40-odd family members (does anyone here support their mother, sisters, brothers, and cousisns?). He's supportive of his mother, even when she may be embarassing (you think you might not cringe if your Mom showed up at your games with "Iverson's Mom" signs and sprinkled Holy Water on you?) What do you expect? He's been trying to find himself, in public, without any role models since he was 8 years old. Of course there are some contradictions, he's not perfect, but him a break.
posted by Mike McD at 11:55 AM on March 16, 2004
There are plenty of people in the NBA who have had just as long odds, complete with juvinelle convictions. You see them at practice all the time.
posted by corpse at 12:03 PM on March 16, 2004
There's a big difference between working your way up through the ranks and sucking it up, and then bitching when you become a star. In fact, it shows even less character, because he was apparently willing to work when it behooved him, but now it doesn't. Also, Allen Iverson is 28 years old. I think there are quite a few folks out there who are working regular jobs and had just as tough a childhood (if not tougher) than he did, and yet they manage to survive, even without a multi-million dollar contract. And they (nor I) weren't born with some of the inherent skills necessary to become a No. 1 overall pick in the NBA draft. Am I saying he didn't work hard to get where he is? No, not at all. But he sure as hell needs a lot of character work beyond where he is right now, and if you don't believe me, ask a few NBA executives what they think.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:53 PM on March 16, 2004
wfrazerjr, "Allen Iverson is one of the greatest players, unquestionably one of the greatest attractions, this game has to offer," one Eastern Conference executive said recently. "The kid's a superstar, and we all know it. "But the Sixers aren't winning with him. And when you consider his outburst against his coach, his tardiness, and now, his growing number of missed games, you've got to have Jerry West's clout to surrender one of your stars for him. Very few of us have that level of job security." Too bad. If 28 other team executives had the pull West has in Memphis, they'd all be after Iverson, who is simply too great to ignore. As it stands, most of them will call the Sixers this summer anyway. Did you read that article? The article supports what I've been saying, that Iverson is worth the effort. The article also says that Ford was wrong not to start Iverson.
posted by Mike McD at 01:07 PM on March 16, 2004
This is silly - you're both being selective. Did you notice all the bad stuff, Mike, such as his outburst against his coach, his tardiness, and now, his growing number of missed games? I don't think Iverson is a punk, but he's been acting like one lately, and he's definitely not the rags to riches Robin Hood you're making him out to be. He's got a huge problem with authority and thin skin... not a good combination in anyone.
posted by dusted at 01:33 PM on March 16, 2004
If what you're saying is that Iverson can get away with anything he wants, despite the fact that it's detrimental to everyone else on the team and despite the fact that they haven't won a championship with one of the best players in the league, then Iverson can sit around when he's retired, championshipless and think about how much all this personal bullshit means to him. Think about how all of his teammmates must feel busting their ass every night and watching him do it. Would you feel good about it Mike McD? Losing, watching your best player act like an ass and play when he feels like it? I know I wouldn't like it one bit.
posted by dfleming at 01:34 PM on March 16, 2004
He's got a huge problem with authority and thin skin If what you're saying is that Iverson can get away with anything he wants Yes, I think Iverson has a huge problem with authority and thin skin. I think when you get railroaded by the police at 17 you might be sceptical of authority. When every male figure in your life vanishes you might end up with a thin skin. I'm sympathetic to that. You're not. Fine. Where did I say Iverson should get away with anything he wants? I said he's a complex figure, some good, some bad. Chris Ford is an idiot for ignoring the good, and focusing on the bad, especially with a guy who has always been so sensitive to criticism. Does Iverson need kid gloves? YES. Is it a little silly that a 28 year old man still needs a little coddling? YES. Do I find that outrageous? NO. I know lots of 28 year old men who need plently of coddling. And BTW, wfrazerjr, Iverson didn't start acting like this when he became a star. He's always been like this, his whole freaking career. He takes criticism personally. You would think that after an MVP, an Olympic bid, a Finals appearance, he wouldn't, but he does. AND, I don't chalk it up to him being an jerk. I just think he's suprisingly insecure for a multi-millionaire superstar.
posted by Mike McD at 01:51 PM on March 16, 2004
Dusted, I realize reading my post that it sounds like I'm replying to you. I'm not. You seem to be the only one on this board that sees the good and the bad. My comment is directed to the board in general, not to you.
posted by Mike McD at 02:09 PM on March 16, 2004
No problem, Mike. I think it's cool that you're a fan of Iverson and you're sticking up for him when he's getting hammered. One thing is absolutely clear after this incident: either Iverson or Ford will be gone by next season. I'm not an ESPN Insider subscriber, but the intro to this article explains why it will probably be Ford.
posted by dusted at 03:07 PM on March 16, 2004
saw this on my local sports newcast last night. glad i've not watched too much NBA this season. there's some poor souls in detroit who payed inflated ticket prices to see iverson battle the home squad only to see iverson selfishly suit up for warm ups and in street clothes by game time because he felt like he was a starter. the NBA is doomed if this behavior continues on the road it's been on for the last couple of years. david stern be damned.