11/05/24
December 14, 2003
We've been all about Nomah and ARod ...: but what is Miggy worth? It sounds like the Tigers are ready to throw some mad money at Tejada. Would a huge contract in this case be a smart deal for either side? Both sides? And does Kreidler's point about ARod possibly moving to a contender while still getting paid make this more attractive to Miguel? Does it make the $252M deal more palatable?
And here's that story. I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference where he went, although Camden should be a good hitter's park for him. The deal is extremely back-ended, so it should work out okay for the O's, and they think they still have money to go after Vlad ... that's pretty amazing.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:21 PM on December 14, 2003
What are the rest of the insider-only rumors?
posted by djacobs at 10:00 PM on December 14, 2003
Boston fans: What about Nomar for A-rod straight up?
posted by djacobs at 10:01 PM on December 14, 2003
djacobs: interesting. However, while the Rangers would jump at that, the Sox would have no incentive- the whole value of A-Rod for Manny is that the Sox take a little more salary, while the Rangers would lose a little salary, and the Sox would unload a great hitting LF that they want to be rid of. The Sox taking A-Rod for Nomar would leave them slightly better at SS, but still saddled with Manny's contract as well as increasing their SS pay by $10-15m, and with no room to upgrade in other areas. So, wow- it both rules and sucks to be rooting for an AL East team this year. It's going to be a blood sport this coming season, since both the Orioles and the Blue Jays are arming to be at least competitive (if not in the realm of Sox & Yankees). And once again, some mediocre team from the AL Central will make the playoffs while 2 or 3 better teams in the East beat each other up for one or two playoff spots.
posted by hincandenza at 10:54 PM on December 14, 2003
As much as ESPN has had a service, eulogy and burial for this ARod deal, I think they have been way off all along. I think all the "doesn't look like anything is happening" and the "lots of smoke, but I think I'll be playing in Texas next year" is a lot of media posturing and ESPN went for it, whereas Boston media didn't take the bait. Hart, Hicks, Henry and Epstein are all saying this so they get some peace and quiet. ARod has to say these things, simply because if he came out and said, "Yeah! I am pretty excited about possibly playing in Boston!" and the deal falls through, he's fucked in a public relations standpoint in Texas. It's very similar to Manny's gaff about "I want to play for the Yankees" under the presumption that if he was put on waivers, the Yankees would pick him up. Yeah, that worked out real well. The latest is that Texas is willing to take a pitcher instead of the money they were trying to bleed the Red Sox for. Woo hoo, it just so happens the Sauerbeck/Cubs trade fell through and Scott Williamson, our extra closer, was told he could be traded. rotoworld.com; " The Scott Sauerbeck-to-the-Cubs deal fell apart yesterday, so he's expected to be non-tendered." " With Texas now willing to accept a pitcher instead of cash, the Rangers and Red Sox may be moving closer to an Alex Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez swap." " Scott Williamson was told yesterday that he can stay with the Red Sox in a setup role or accept a trade elsewhere to serve as a starter or closer." Herald, and Globe chime in. and I still want to kick Jeff Moorad in the teeth.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:01 AM on December 15, 2003
And now rumour has it that the Orioles are about to announce the signing of Vlad AND Pudge as well. If so, they will have trumped the Red Sox AND Yankees in the off-season. And still finish 4th in the AL East because their pitching sucks donkey balls.
posted by grum@work at 07:07 AM on December 15, 2003
This has been the most interesting off season in ages. And it isn't even close to being over yet!
posted by jasonspaceman at 08:11 AM on December 15, 2003
I swear to God, if the O's give Pudge a 3-year, $30M deal, they are the stupidest mofos on the planet (see my feelings on the matter here). Well, besides the Iraqis who thought Saddam would really kill himself before giving up to American forces.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:56 AM on December 15, 2003
Well, they already overpaid for Tejada.
posted by yerfatma at 09:26 AM on December 15, 2003
Do you think the deal Tejada got significantly ups the amount Nomar's value in this market?
posted by jerseygirl at 09:30 AM on December 15, 2003
Do you think the deal Tejada got significantly ups the amount Nomar's value in this market? If anything, it lessens it. Over the last three years (the best indicators of a player's future performance) Tejada has bested Nomar. Tejada is an MVP, Nomar is no where close. And even though clutch hitting doesn't exists, Tejada seems to carry a reputation as a better clutch hitter. God, that win streak Oakland had a couple years ago was incredible.
posted by djacobs at 10:20 AM on December 15, 2003
Also, now that Tejada has been locked up, you have to consider that the top bidder has been taken off the market. Tejada's second best offer was 5 yrs/50 million? So Nomar can either go to Detroit, or except less than that. 4 yrs/60 millon has got to be looking good right now!
posted by djacobs at 10:23 AM on December 15, 2003
Or 4 years/48m (I meant)
posted by djacobs at 10:36 AM on December 15, 2003
Tejada vs. Nomar The "last three years" is disingenuous: Nomar was hurt in 2001. Taking the last three full seasons for each player offensively, how is Tejada better than Nomar? Call me a homah, but have you ever seen your MVP Tejada bat? He's an older Soriano with less speed. Yey. Nomar may never be the same again, but to say Tejada's even a comparable player is laughable (in my mind). Defensively it's the same story: Tejada has an ok glove, but he doesn't have Nomar's range. Nomar makes a number of errors on wild throws, but I'm willing to accept them given the balls he gets to. He's not A-Rod, but no one else is either. Tejada had one good year and it wasn't even that great. He's second-tier with Jeter and he will drop off fast. The O's over-paid in dollars and years and I have a feeling this contract in 2008 or 2009 will be about as valuable as the last few years of Albert Belle's deal.
posted by yerfatma at 12:10 PM on December 15, 2003
Over the last three years . . . Tejada has bested Nomar. I just went back to check if I was being blinded by loyalty. I was not: Tejada's best-ever OPS is less than Nomar's worst ever. How has he "bested" Nomar? In the words of Jesus from The Big Lebowski, "Laughable man, laughable."
posted by yerfatma at 12:13 PM on December 15, 2003
Win Shares for Tejada, Nomar & Jeter - with Nomar's 2000 season replacing his 2001 season (which is more than generous).
posted by djacobs at 12:24 PM on December 15, 2003
One win share is the difference between being MVP and "not even close"?
posted by yerfatma at 02:12 PM on December 15, 2003
The "last three years" is disingenuous: Nomar was hurt in 2001. ... Nomar's 2000 season replacing his 2001 season (which is more than generous). To clarify - one very common mistake people make when evaluating talent is imagining "what if" a player wasn't hurt. Pleayers who get injured tend to get injured again, and player's who stay healthy tend to stay healthy. (see: a-rod, MJ, rip, sheed, payton, mcdyess, grant hill, shaq, fonzie, piazza) Also, players who get hurt are rarely the same again. Nomar has never recovered from his wrist injury, and he probably won't. Likewise, A-rod & Tejada work year round to stay in shape so they don't get hurt. This makes them more valuable.
posted by djacobs at 02:15 PM on December 15, 2003
Nomar was not even in the discussion for MVP this year or the year before, Tejada was the MVP the year before last, and was definitely in the discussion this year.
posted by djacobs at 02:17 PM on December 15, 2003
I'm not sure what you're implying, but it kind of sounds like you're saying Nomar doesn't work year round to stay in shape. 
Asn't Piazza hurt this year? And in 02?
posted by jerseygirl at 02:22 PM on December 15, 2003
Asn't = wasn't. I had a long weekend.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:22 PM on December 15, 2003
March 2001 - before he was hurt and coming off his best year. And still look at those love handle.s Asn't Piazza hurt this year? And in 02? Yes, he is often hurt, and he will get hurt again (unless he plays < 80 games @ C)
posted by djacobs at 02:40 PM on December 15, 2003
I'm pretty sure they just superimposed some carney's head on Gabe Kapler's body for that picture.
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:50 PM on December 15, 2003
Gabe Kapler OH! I thought you meant Gabe Kaplan! 
posted by lilnemo at 03:00 PM on December 15, 2003
I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic about the love handles.
posted by jerseygirl at 03:10 PM on December 15, 2003
Can we hear about the weekend now?
posted by wfrazerjr at 03:41 PM on December 15, 2003
BostonDirtDogs says A-Rod is coming to town.
posted by yerfatma at 06:03 AM on December 16, 2003
its a Chrismukkah miracle.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:18 AM on December 16, 2003
everyday, it looks more possible everyday that Nomah will be a Dodgah.
posted by jasonspaceman at 06:49 AM on December 16, 2003
spaceman, do you know anything about this 19 year old Dodger pitching prospect that is being mentioned in the trade?
posted by jerseygirl at 07:28 AM on December 16, 2003
Other than that he (Greg Miller) was the clubs minor league pitcher of the year, not much. Semi-quoting this page: http://kffl.com/player/8832/MLB "He has a mid-90s fastball and at Vero Beach he struck out 111 batters in 116 innings. He subsequently moved up to Double-A Jacksonville during the season, and went 1-1 there with a 1.01 ERA and 40 strikeouts in 27 innings."
posted by jasonspaceman at 08:23 AM on December 16, 2003
I don't like the reports I am hearing that Manny is swapped with ARod, plus whatever Nomar is traded for, also goes to Texas... I don't like that at all. BostonDirtDogs is reporting that "Magglio Ordonez, Richard Hidalgo, Jim Edmonds, Adam Dunn and Austin Kearns are on the outfield radar screen." Yes, we don't know the whole story yet.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:21 AM on December 16, 2003
Whatever for Nomar + Manny for A-rod is a great deal. It's just like all of your fantasy league deals, jerseygirl. A-rod is still a deal, and still the best player in baseball. Shit, they should just rename them the boston rod sox!
posted by djacobs at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2003
boston rod sox Name's taken. They pass those out every Friday night at The Machine.
posted by yerfatma at 10:53 AM on December 16, 2003
Also, could the Red Sox sign Maddux?
posted by djacobs at 11:01 AM on December 16, 2003
It's just like all of your fantasy league deals, jerseygirl Oh no you didn't
posted by garfield at 11:09 AM on December 16, 2003
I am a fan of jerseygirl, and her deals. As I am a fan of the Red Sox winning the next 4 World Series.
posted by djacobs at 11:50 AM on December 16, 2003
I have a better idea. Let's just put every goddamned MLB player's name in a hat, draw them out and reassign them to new teams. This is all too much for my flu-addled brain. boston rod sox I smell a porno.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:04 PM on December 16, 2003
I'm just not super psyched about nomar + manny for arod because offensively Nomar + Manny /= ARod. Whatever for Nomar + Manny for A-rod is a great deal. No, because that leaves ARod unprotected in the lineup. They'll just walk him to get to Ortiz. You need another bat in the mix somehow. It's just like all of your fantasy league deals, jerseygirl. The championship 'topes had Schilling and Foulke, as well as Pedro and Wake. Could Theo learn from me? yes perhaps! (/sarcasm). And the Red Sox don't need Maddux. They need a power hitting OF.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:11 PM on December 16, 2003
hope you feel better Fraz!
posted by jerseygirl at 12:11 PM on December 16, 2003
Next question: keep nomar for the year, and have him play third?
posted by djacobs at 02:49 PM on December 16, 2003
Trade Nomar. You have to for 2 reasons. - The likelihood of getting Nomar to play 3B is slim. - It doesn't make sense. You essentially do what the Red Sox of Past have done with Clemens and Vaughn. You end up letting him walk at the end of the season as a FA for nothing. If you trade him now, intelligently, you should be able to get something of value for him, even if it is prospects.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:55 PM on December 16, 2003
it'd be nice to keep Nomah for 2nd - that'd be some fine infield D and O. But yeah, getting rid of him now makes more sense because you can get a return. I disagree with point a, jg, just because he's an employee and he'll either play where they tell him to or sit the bench. But it'd of course affect his production if he was angry all year. But I agree about protection - as a Yankee fan I sort of hope this does go through because ARod scares me less than Nomar/Manny, and because of the group of Mueller, Millar, Ortiz etc some if not most of them are going to fall back a bit from their outlier career years. They won't be bad, but they won't be as good, and that'll mean ARod can be pitched around.
posted by Bernreuther at 04:31 PM on December 16, 2003
Don't get too comfy with the idea of just ARod. I don't think they are going to put some shmoe out in LF. Big names are being tossed around. Just have to. Yeah, Nomar is an employee, I just think you have to do better by him (and for the team at the end of the season) than sticking him at 2B where he may be unhappy and then letting him walk.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:01 PM on December 16, 2003
a big name, like Ordonez, apparently. I wish this all would just happen already. I've been following this for almost 2 weeks and the waiting is driving me crazy.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:18 AM on December 17, 2003
*pictures Jgirl hopping from one foot to the other and staring at the TVs in the eletronics section at Best Buy* This page contains both some information on the union getting involved in the Manny-for-Arod deal, but it also has a few words from Kevin Millar, who spoke with Dan Patrick yesterday. He says he wants ARod for Manny and Nomah.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:57 AM on December 17, 2003
"They're moving and plodding along," Rodriguez's agent, Scott Boras, said Tuesday night, adding that he planned to take a late flight to New York to join the talks. This, also from the above link, is why Scott Boras is one of the biggest dicks in sports. I really wish ARod would just turn to him publicly once and say, "Could you do me a favor and shut the fuck up? You aren't helping."
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:59 AM on December 17, 2003
i'm more of an internet girl. *check source, check source, check source. Sigh. Wait. Repeat* "Could you do me a favor and shut the fuck up? You aren't helping." Same thing with Jeff Morrad and Arn Tellem. I thought it so strange that Curt Schilling (and even Sheffield) represented themselves, but now I see why. Agents suck. They like hearing themselves talk and are frustrated non-athletes trying to get some press time and celebrity of their own. I really hate Moorad. He knew Manny the Man Child was okay staying in Cleveland for less money and yet, he shipped him off to Boston. Players seem to be working for their agents and the Players Union now, instead of the other way around.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:17 AM on December 17, 2003
Too late. Baltimore got him. Pike!