October 30, 2003

The particulars of this move- which is a quirk of the waivers I'd never heard of- are that unlike a traditional waiver, it sounds as it the original team can't yank the player back: if this is true, and at least one team claims Manny, that pretty much clinches it; he would be out of Boston. The best speculation I've heard as to why the Sox would even do this is that they've been looking to get rid of him (his contract was inked by Dan Duquette) and replace his $20m salary with money spent elsewhere, in particular with pitching. However, unlike traditional trade scenarios or even waiver danglings, this all but baits a team to make an impulse purchase; they wouldn't have time to think it over, beyond 48 hours, when many teams might then reconsider. Perhaps it's even a dare for Steinbrenner in particular, hot after the WS loss, to make a jump at Manny, absorbing that salary and beefing up his offense to the expense of his biggest competition (and allowing the Yankees to more easily move guys like Soriano or others). The presumption would then be that the Sox do this because they want to catch an impetuous George, and feel they couldn't remove Manny and his contract any other way. But a non-trade means the Yanks can seriously improve LF for only the cost of the salary itself, and the Sox lose a BIG bat with no guaranteed replacement. Theo's not stupid, thus the speculation is the Sox must have something fairly concrete in the works with a big-time replacement, perhaps even a Vlad Guerrero. If this doesn't pan out, though, Manny would be a huge headache- what team would do a standard trade after this stunt, with the size of Manny's contract and the clear sign the Sox are apparently desperate to move him? And how would a surly Manny be in 2004, and how would his teammates, especially guys like Pedro and Ortiz, react? Update: The NYT has just published this online, so it'll presumably be in the print version as well. It goes without saying that with the NYT carrying it, this will be a big topic of discussion in the baseball world on Thursday.

posted by hincandenza at 02:09 AM on October 30, 2003

fuck.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:11 AM on October 30, 2003

I didn't see this coming. of course, in my baseball naivete, I didn't know they could do this. There's always been a lot of talk about being stuck with Manny's contract, no one ever brought this possibility up before, so there you go. It's a good thing for the team I think, especially if they go after Vlad and maybe Millwood or Pettitte.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:35 AM on October 30, 2003

Wow. Damn. Hell. But I like Manny. Is the contract that much of a handicap? I have nothing else to say except I'd never compare Art to Matt Drudge. He's the best writer on the Sox from my perspective (that he understands stats helps). Unfortunately he's the sports editor, so he doesn't write Art's Notebook as much as he used to.

posted by yerfatma at 07:03 AM on October 30, 2003

there's only one team that can afford that contract in this environment. it's a smart move by theo and company. he could get a lot more with 100+ million shed. the bats are replaceable, it's the pitching that's hard to find. with the way the free agent market has shaped up over the last 2 years the sox could replace manny with a bat, that while isn't going to replace those numbers, could do an above average job with signifigantly less cash. my only concern would be if theo really thinks that the rest of roster can hit at the clip it did last season. as a met fan, the 2000 mets all had career years. phillips then expected that type of production going forward. you know the rest of this story. but i think theo is smarter than that. no matter how much hitting they have they still won't beat the yanks with the arms currently wearing a red sox uniform. i really dig this move but i don't think george is going to bite.

posted by oliver_crunk at 07:38 AM on October 30, 2003

Wow. Surprising - but it kinda does make sense. Boston needs some flexibility and would probably go after Vlad since contracts like Manny's are probably a thing of the past - so they could sign Vlad for five-years at say $75 mil. Besides - Manny produces at the plate.... And no where else (no glove, no hustle, no arm).

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:43 AM on October 30, 2003

the red sox aren't the a's. they don't need to exploit inefficiencies in the market. they can afford the players valued by everyone. i believe (not sure though) that they have the seond biggest revenue stream in baseball.....and an owner who seems willing to spend to win. while theo is saber-inclined, that doesn't mean he has to hunt for undervalued players. just players that are fair market value. manny, might not be fair market value by the tail end of that contract.

posted by oliver_crunk at 09:01 AM on October 30, 2003

I'm not sure what the upside of this move would be. The only team that could afford him is the Yankees, and they're actively looking for outfield help. Even Manny could handle moving to that tiny right field in Yankee Stadium. It seems like they are practically giving Steinbrenner a guy who is consistantly among the league leaders in every offensive category. If he is claimed, they get nothing in return. If he's not claimed, they get a Manny who's even less motivated. Besides, aren't Bill James types supposed to downplay the whole chemistry thing in favor of numbers? I would have thought Manny would be their gold standard.

posted by Jugwine at 09:13 AM on October 30, 2003

1. From what I've noticed, when a team lets a player go, the player almost always takes it as a personal slight. On the other hand, when a player leaves as a free agent for more money, it's just business. In this particular case, I don't think Manny is really capable of thinking analytically about this. He'll be off waivers one way or the other by the time his agent has finished explaining the situation to him. 2. I'm not sure that Manny could stop hitting if he tried. Even when he's not hustling, he's still one of the most dangerous hitters in the league. 3. It has to be a little of both. It must have really stuck in John Henry's craw when Manny sat out the Yankee series and refused to pinch hit against the Phillies. This may be a situation similar to what they went through with Grady Little. They had already made up their minds, but if he had really come through in the postseason, they wouldn't have been able to move him from a PR standpoint. I don't think MLB will ever be able to get rid of them, but guaranteed contracts are really scary, especially when they are long term. Do you realize that the Orioles are still paying off Albert Belle's contract? He earned $12,448,894 this year sitting at home.

posted by Jugwine at 09:56 AM on October 30, 2003

The Yankees aren't going to take Manny, the Sox are stuck with a great hitter, gee, that seems so bad.

posted by jbou at 10:33 AM on October 30, 2003

Neyer. And the MLBPA will fight to the last man to retain guaranteed contracts. It's up to the owners and GMs to find a happy medium between locking a guy up long term and minimizing risk with one or two year deals.

posted by mbd1 at 10:46 AM on October 30, 2003

The Gammons article sorta firms up my theory, which is that the Red Sox talked to Manny before this move -- pitching it as a way to get him what he wants. "Look, we couldn't make a trade, but we want you to be happy so we're gonna give New York a chance to take you."

posted by Bryant at 11:29 AM on October 30, 2003

For some perspective, here in Los Angeles, just about every major sports radio station has had at least one person out and out beg Dan Evans and the Dodgers to jump on Manny. It could work, but I'd prefer Vlad myself. But this is Dan Evans and the Dodgers we're talking about. If Manny has a brother, Dan may be interested in him.
freakin dodgers

posted by lilnemo at 11:32 AM on October 30, 2003

"Look, we couldn't make a trade, but we want you to be happy so we're gonna give New York a chance to take you." So with this Gammons revelation, and your take on it Bryant, do you get the feeling that if no one picks Manny up on waivers, there won't be sour grapes or harsh feelings on Manny's side come spring training? They (Theo & co) tried to move him, with Manny's blessing, it would seem.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2003

i'm not buying the clubhouse stuff. it's over-rated. these are competive pro's.....saying that manny would tank because he's not feeling the way sox nation treats him is ridiculous. he might have a history of doing some un-team-like stuff but the dude came with some serious numbers last year. whether he stays or goes....you can mail in .300/30 hr's/100 rbi's next year minimum. there's no tank in those numbers. sometimes i don't get the emotional aspect of red sox nation.

posted by oliver_crunk at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2003

i'm not claiming to know about red sox nation. i think i might have a good idea about it though. i've been to boston plenty. extended stays, too! i'd love to hear you expand upon what the big secret is, yerfatmama, because i've talked to plenty of sox fans and all i see are these types: -the sports talk crazies who care more about what the yankees are doing than what the sox are doing. there's a lot of these folk. -the drunk idiots who care more about being drunk and starting divisive chants (more or less the exception. not the rule) -extremelly knowledgeable fans who aren't suprised by any sox calamity. all of the above have their curse meter on at all times. they all believe in the curse. which is why their perspective is a tad more emotional than, say, a mets, like myself. ((sorry for the de-rail.....not trying to offend anyone. just my observation))

posted by oliver_crunk at 01:18 PM on October 30, 2003

i'd love to hear you expand upon what the big secret is, yerfatmama... I just found this funny. Carry on.

posted by lilnemo at 01:45 PM on October 30, 2003

i'd love to hear you expand upon what the big secret is It's not like that. My point wasn't that you don't know what you're talking about. My point was much of your information about us is filtered through the media and the Boston media has a vested interest in telling us we are a certain way. I don't believe in a Curse. No one I know believes in a Curse. The one fucking miserable human being I know of who does happens to be a senior writer for the Boston Globe and a dickhead non pareil, Mr. Dan Shaughnessy ("The CHB" to those in the know). If you think we all believe in curses, then I think my point is a valid one. Though jerseygirl did it much better, I would point out that 3 of your 3 RSN member types can be found in fans of all other major sports teams in the US.

posted by yerfatma at 02:13 PM on October 30, 2003

"How would you like your crunk? Well-done, or medium rare?" Good points all. P.S. Dan Evans glad you bought out Jordan. But please keep your hands in your pockets should Manny or his agent drop by. However, if Vlad happens to leave a message call him back immediately and repeatedly like a 13-yr old boy with a crush.

posted by lilnemo at 03:19 PM on October 30, 2003

So with this Gammons revelation, and your take on it Bryant, do you get the feeling that if no one picks Manny up on waivers, there won't be sour grapes or harsh feelings on Manny's side come spring training? That's my uninformed guess. Check out the Dirt Dogs, too -- they're claiming that Manny asked to be put on waivers.

posted by Bryant at 04:56 PM on October 30, 2003

I like bostondirtdogs. Check them everyday. I've linked to them a couple times here. What kind of confuses me is some of the claims without links seem to be made up and conjecture. But they get some good scoops otherwise. Anyway, if Manny does clear waivers, I think this also sends a message. It says to Nomar and Pedro (who are in the position to re-sign), "Look, no one was willing to pick up Manny's contract and he's an upper echelon player also. Those days of overinflated Mannyesque contracts are over. We're in a market correction." That is, of course, if they even want Nomar and Pedro anymore. I don't have any idea what Theo & Co's plans are now, this Manny thing blindsided me this morning.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:42 PM on October 30, 2003

The CHB crack gets me laughing everytime. Certain ones will always getcha. Carl was just extremely good at it. Friends and I still laugh over him dismissing Edes or whomever during a Spring Training by saying "All you motherfuckers from the Globe . . . " and then saying "Globe" every time someone tried to interject. You can file that with Mo Vaughn's "Dumb, stupid Boston fans. They stupid," Rick Pitino's "All the negativity in this town sucks and it stinks and it sucks" and every Celtics broadcast after Tommy gets his first Chivas in. None of which will ever top an average Jim Mora press conference in my mind.

posted by yerfatma at 07:45 PM on October 30, 2003

The Dirt Dogs are the bomb. Now, if only I could get posting privs on the Sons of Sam Horn... Man, we have a lot of Internet sports personalities with goofy names around here. Sports Guy. Dirt Dogs. Sons of Sam Horn. Good thing Cossette uses his real name.

posted by Bryant at 12:43 AM on October 31, 2003

I didn't realize Heinson had so many quotes. Let me strongly recommend the next 9 games before the Cooz flies south for the winter. Heinson and Cooz together are too much. They see everything that goes on in the game but spend as much time ribbing each other as analyzing. Plus the voices alone are worth the price of admission. My all-time favorite letter to the BSG (back when he was at citysearch) went as follows: "I'm gonna start calling Paul Pierce 'Chewbacca' because Bob Cousy says he's definitely 'Wookie of the Year'." Bryant, SOSH posting is over-rated. It's like a pass to an old folks with dementia sanitorium. Dirt Dogs is better, but it still suffers from the overwrought personalities oliver_crunk decries above. Does anyone know if Hench from "Hench's Hardball" on Dirt Dogs is the same Hench the BSG always mentions?

posted by yerfatma at 06:51 AM on October 31, 2003

I was in a meeting all day... so cut me a bit of slack. There's a weird rumor about Manny may have actually been picked up (no one, not even the Red Sox will know until 1 pm EST) and that frees up enough money and the Red Sox are going after A-Rod in a possible 3-way trade involving... Anaheim? I also heard something that A-Rod may have been put on waivers too, but no one knew about it because waivers is supposed to be hush hush. Hot stove action is killing me this year. Im a ball of nerves. Go Theo!

posted by jerseygirl at 11:30 AM on October 31, 2003

The Post (and a couple of Boston outlets) have the same rumor.

posted by yerfatma at 12:20 PM on October 31, 2003

Manny cleared waivers.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:04 PM on October 31, 2003

boston.com report.

posted by jerseygirl at 01:26 PM on October 31, 2003