11/05/24
October 27, 2003
BoSox have Little patience for Grady.: The Red Sox have called a 3 p.m. EST press conference to apparently announce the formal ditching of their manager. He would be the first skipper released after two consecutive 90-win seasons since the A's did it to Alvin Dark 30 years ago. Is this the right thing to do?
Right or wrong doesn't seem to play into it - Sox history, media and fans have left absolutely no choice. Another question: Does anyone think this bruhaha has deflected attention from the other very real problem of Pedro? $17 mil a year and the guy doesn't look like he'll ever be able to throw deep into a game. His velocity is consstently down now and 3rd time through a line-up he looks ordinary. At a relatively young age - with a huge constract and not a lot of wiggle room for the Sox inthe off-season - what do they do besides get a new coach and see if they can pry one of these mid-range free agents away? Can they duplicate the career years seen by almost every one in their line-up? Can this team recover?
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:48 PM on October 27, 2003
posted by justgary at 12:53 PM on October 27, 2003
I would imagine that all the bosox fans have lost confidence in him so I would say that he is now in an environment of "he can't stay" moreso than one where his resume dictates that "he must go". So yeah, move forward without him.
posted by gspm at 01:32 PM on October 27, 2003
Let's cut thru the crap: he was not a good manager. Game 7 was just a glaring example of what he did for two years. He's a heck of a bench coach and an excellent hand at tending a clubhouse. As an in-game strategist, he'd be the worst in the division if Carlos Tosca wasn't still napping the in the Jays dugout. Yes, what to do about the Pedro Martinez problem? Damn guy, leading the league in ERA and almost in strikeouts despite missing a chunk of games. That's definitely top of the list titled "Problems".
posted by yerfatma at 01:43 PM on October 27, 2003
Man it'd be nice if the Sox could have a manager for longer than 2 seasons. I agree with getting rid of him, despite his positives he's terrible at the key moments needed to win playoff games. So who is out there to replace him?
posted by kokaku at 01:56 PM on October 27, 2003
So who is out there to replace him? Jerry Manuel, Willie Randolph, Jerry Remy are just a few of the names being tossed around. Listening to the press conference now. Grady's officially gone.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:03 PM on October 27, 2003
Yerfatma - yeah groovy - too bad he doesn't stick around long enough into games to actually win them. ERA is a great stat - but it's a per game stat - and if your 'ace' spends an average of 20 days on the injured reserve and can't toss 200 innings, than I think a case can be made for ineffectiveness. And what about come playoff time - when the stars come out to shine? 15 runs in 28 and a third innings. Perhaps it's alittle harsh to call him a bust - but how many pitchers would you take before him were you a GM?
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:21 PM on October 27, 2003
Jerry Manuel would actually be worse. He's another dugout napper. Remy would never do it (unless behind his careful honed nebbish persona lies the mind of a meglomaniac). The Globe lists some other possibilities. Not many are attractive. Buddy Bailey has done a good job in P'tucket, but his name has not been brought up. He pre-dates the current administration, so maybe that's why.
posted by yerfatma at 02:21 PM on October 27, 2003
but it's a per game stat That's why it's worthwhile. Wins aren't much of a measure of a pitcher unless you're Joe Morgan. I'm not saying he's the best pitcher any more— 1998-1999 seems a long time ago. I'm saying he's not at the top of the "TO BE FIXED" list.
posted by yerfatma at 02:24 PM on October 27, 2003
If Jerry Manuel is the best they can do...they've made a mistake. I'd love to see what he can do with the bullpen (see: Keith Foulke, 2002). I'd have to buy into the thinking that Remy's name being thrown out there is just the Red Sox front office trying to appease their fans. There aren't many people that wouldn't like to see Remy in the dougout, but why would he? If there's one person who knows the death sentence that is managing in this town it's him, why go from the favorite son to the whipping boy. Besides they'd have to put a tv in the dugout for weekday afternoon games so he could keep up with Days of our Lives.
posted by YukonGold at 02:27 PM on October 27, 2003
Yerfatma- yeah but wins are all that count for the team- as a Sox fan, I'd have thought you'd be all over that sentiment. I think he's a potential Sandy Koufax, or perhaps Dennis Eckersley. But if they keep running him out there like that for two more years, i think he's done.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:44 PM on October 27, 2003
I have to agree. Jerry Remy is almost too smart to manage the Red Sox. I would imagine that he realizes that if he did anything other than the win the world series, he'd be seen as a failure as a manager. I think he'd make a great bench coach, but that's surely a demotion from where he's at now. He was not an X's and O's manager, but I think he did a pretty decent job of wrangling the egos both in the dugout and the press box. I hope he gets another chance with a different team.
posted by Jugwine at 02:48 PM on October 27, 2003
I don't want Remy as the manager. I think he could be great at it, but I don't want him villanized. I like him far too much to scream at him from the comfort of my home or the discomfort of the grandstands. I am not super familiar with the rest of the potential candidates. I've given it some thought, and I know it's early, but I'd like to throw my hat into the ring as a candidate for Red Sox Manager. Some highpoints of my resume: - I watch all the games anyway, so I generally have a lot of time on my hands. - Playing in half empty stadiums on the road wouldn't be so bad. - I've read most of Moneyball and would be willing to finish the rest of it this week if needed. - I know when to take the ball away from Pedro. - I wouldn't try that Strike 'Em Out/Throw Em Out move more than once. - I would get in an ump's face if needed. - I think Manny and I would get along well. - In Theo I Trust. - I enjoy sunflower seeds. So all that considered, I think I am the natural candidate. ;)
posted by jerseygirl at 03:08 PM on October 27, 2003
- I enjoy sunflower seeds.
Okay. This is very important. Salted, or unsalted seeds?
posted by lilnemo at 03:15 PM on October 27, 2003
ahem. Why?
posted by jerseygirl at 03:18 PM on October 27, 2003
Because, the BoSox need someone who can be bold. Someone who demands that they take their Sunflower seeds with a hint of salt! Not some namby pamby who resigns themselves to taking their seeds plain!!
posted by lilnemo at 03:51 PM on October 27, 2003
hah. well, salt then. i'm no pamby!
posted by jerseygirl at 03:54 PM on October 27, 2003
Right on!!
All thats left is the paperwork. I don't see why they wouldn't make you manager. You have more invested in the team than any prior manager. Why not?
posted by lilnemo at 04:06 PM on October 27, 2003
But jerseygirl, if you become a serious candidate, much less get hired, we will see your picture! And then all the mystery will be lost. Is that how you want things to go? Wouldn't you rather retain your pseudo-anonymity?
posted by billsaysthis at 04:08 PM on October 27, 2003
my vote's with you then jg oh, Red Sox Nation doesn't get to vote why, why, that's taxation (overpriced tickets and monthly cable bill for NESN) without representation maybe Wesley Clark will take the job if his presidential bid falters
posted by kokaku at 04:08 PM on October 27, 2003
we will see your picture! How 'bout a week-long moratorium on the fucking picture comments? That'd be . . . different.
posted by yerfatma at 04:27 PM on October 27, 2003
You know, instead of all these namby-pamby bastards for Red Sox manager (no offense, J), how about this guy? Instead of standing around like that wussy Little, Ermey would have disabled Zimmer, fired grenades in the Yankee dugout, then charged upstairs and taken out King George. That's a program I can get behind.
posted by wfrazerjr at 05:02 PM on October 27, 2003
R. Lee Ermey, wfrazerjr. Hot damn. I'm only pissed at you because I didn't think of it first. :)
posted by lilnemo at 05:09 PM on October 27, 2003
Ermey should have let Private Pyle take him out as soon as filming wrapped. He's been running that character into the ground. However, it would be nice to hear one of the local writers (Dan Shaughnessey, I'm looking at you) make a snide remark during a press conference and hear, "Alright, which one of you twinkle-toed Communist pieces of shit said that? Who said that?"
posted by yerfatma at 05:28 PM on October 27, 2003
Go see the new Texas Chain Saw Massacre. R. Lee's performance is classic. btw, 'namby pamby' made my day.
posted by garfield at 05:43 PM on October 27, 2003
oh, and j.biel looks salty in a wife-beater and lowrider denim.
posted by garfield at 05:45 PM on October 27, 2003
btw, 'namby pamby' made my day.
My work here is done.
posted by lilnemo at 05:51 PM on October 27, 2003
Over the proverbial water cooler, my co-workers were suggesting that Joe Torre might want out of the pinstripes and that he would, thus, make a great Sox manager. I sort of felt that he might not be a good fit and that, at any rate, the point was probably moot since Torre hasn't been mentioned in any of the stories I've read as a potential candidate. Anyhow, I don't read an awful lot about the Yankees, but is Torre really discontent?
posted by Joey Michaels at 08:40 PM on October 27, 2003
I would think anyone working under Steinbrenner is discontent, to say the least.
posted by lilnemo at 08:46 PM on October 27, 2003
Not being a horror devotee, I can't vouch for any discussion of any version of the film. I don't watch anything with violence in it — in fact, I had trouble with Air Force One, if you can believe that. However, while I worked in Texas last year, I did become friends with Robert Burns, who was the art director for the original. He has pooh-poohed all the later versions, and after hearing his explanation of why, I can understand it. Check out the site for insider poop, if you dig that kinda stuff. Still ... yuck.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:50 PM on October 27, 2003
Bye the bye, Steinbrenner has already stated that Torre will be the skipper in '04. However, heads will roll. It's very unlikely that any of the coaching staff outside of Torre returns.
And, speculating that Joe decides to skip out on the Big Apple, you can bet your ass Steinbrenner makes sure he stays off limits till the end of his contract.
posted by lilnemo at 09:06 PM on October 27, 2003
However, heads will roll. In the context we were discussing, that's hilarious. We seems to be discussing whether or not King George can manage to butcher (ha!) the organization through disastrous personnel moves, but why would we think that when they've been so spectacularly successful with him? So he tosses an entire coaching staff and a few players? He has a bazillion dollars to go sign whomever the hell he likes, including Vlad. They'll be just as damned good next year, no matter what.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:22 PM on October 27, 2003
Steinbrenner will never fire Torre simply for the fact that the Red Sox would most likely pick him up, and Torre has had nothing but good things to say about the Red Sox. Conversely, if Torre did quit, he'd be contractually obligated to the Yankees for the 2004 season and unable to work anywhere else. Same with Cashman -- Under obligation for the 2004 season. On the discontent idea, I think so too. I have hard time believing Zimmer was the only one who felt/feels that way. I secretly hope that at the end of 2004, Cashman and Torre tell George to go fuck himself and go elsewhere. Cashman would be great in Seattle, where they need a GM this year, too. So he tosses an entire coaching staff and a few players? He has a bazillion dollars to go sign whomever the hell he likes, including Vlad. They'll be just as damned good next year, no matter what. He did that this year, bought whomever he wanted to the tune of 180m. Whole lotta good that did him. Are you familiar with the 80s- early 90s Yankees at all, under the iron fist of Steinbrenner? Deion Sanders was in the outfield. That's all I am saying.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:32 PM on October 27, 2003
Jerry Remy: "there's nothing to these rumors at this time"
posted by jerseygirl at 09:40 PM on October 27, 2003
He did that this year, bought whomever he wanted to the tune of 180m. Whole lotta good that did him. Umm ... didn't the Yankees just lose in the World Series? Any other AL team do that this season? As for the 80s and early 90s, agreed, but George now is not George then. Yankees win at least 95 games again next year, we all hate them again ... and they probably go to the Series again. How can you bet against them or George?
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:44 PM on October 27, 2003
Deion Sanders was in the outfield. That's all I am saying.
Best Yankees Crack Ever.
Side note, we all agree that a WS berth is quite an accomplishment, George does not. George has been more "hands on" since the Yankees WS loss to Arizona. That's how Sierra came back. As recounted here. Its not too big a stretch to say that Torre & Cashman may be gone after next season. (Sorry Sox fans) As for Texas Chainsaw Massacre. You gotta see the original. The documentary "feel" has never been truly reproduced. The rest are too Hollywood, or too "glossy". Good flick to see with your significant other.
posted by lilnemo at 09:57 PM on October 27, 2003
Maybe the Sox sign a dead duck for a year, and wait Torre out(?). Christ, it's 8:00pm PST and I have 10 minutes till I get to leave for home. Which is an hour drive away. *sigh* Night all, see ya in the mornin'!
posted by lilnemo at 10:02 PM on October 27, 2003
Umm ... didn't the Yankees just lose in the World Series? Any other AL team do that this season? Does that matter to Steinbrenner? No. Anything short of another ring is a complete and total catastrophic failure -- even if you are simply outmatched in X amount of games. And objectively? The Yankees shouldn't have been in the World Series. This isn't Red Sox fan sour grapes either, so don't go there, really. Yadda yadda yadda, see the post mortem thread after Game 7. And look at the Yankees now. Can you honestly say this is a team to be reckoned with after watching them during the season and post season? Not once did a media member speculate with "But will the Marlins be able to keep up with the dreaded Yankees!?" No. There was no hype. There was no fear. Why? Because the Yankees were completely touchable for some reason -- they were completely mortal this time around. This just isn't the Brosius/O'Neill era Yankees. Something just didn't happen with this year's team. On paper, it seemed like a good idea, but it didn't materialize. I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basket for next year yet. We haven't seen George react to anything yet, but you may this week. They have practically no starting pitching as it stands. Bernie Williams is 113 years old with 4 bad knees and Giambi goes in for knee surgery. They have a lot of work to do and as demonstrated, even if he spends, George isn't going to go home with another ring. Personally, I'd love to see him go nuts. I want to see him go off the deep end, fire everyone, try to steer that ship by himself (tee hee i made a ship joke about steinbrenner) and spend 350m on the team next year. While it's not always neccessary to spend a lot (see Angels 2002, Marlins 2003) to win, it helps to spend smart. Just throwing money out there doesn't bring home a championship.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:26 PM on October 27, 2003
The Original is the original. But, this new version is quite remarkable, in that it doesn't suck. If you like that sort of thing, and don't mind knowing how things end up, well, they did a great job. Or maybe I'm just glad it is such an improvement over the last attempt. Nope, it made me jump in my seat.
posted by garfield at 10:36 PM on October 27, 2003
One more thing, hey Steinbrenner, its 11:30, and Jeter is out galavanting and carousing with his friends...and you still suck.
posted by garfield at 10:38 PM on October 27, 2003
Maybe the Sox sign a dead duck for a year, and wait Torre out(?). You don't want to do that. You've got Pedro, Nomar, Lowe, Varitek, Mueller and Nixon up at the end of 2004 if they don't work out new contracts with some of them in this coming offseason. You can't futz around and put anyone in there as a lame duck. Too much of the new ownership's money, reputation and legacy is on the line to just to wait on the possibility of Torre possibly leaving NY.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:41 PM on October 27, 2003
Why does it matter what matters to Steinbrenner? What's at issue here is not the standard set by King George, but rather the standard set by the rest of us. Only one American League makes the World Series, and this year it was the Yankees. With frightening and disturbing regularity, it has been the Yankees. Didn't we all think at the beginning of the year New York was stumbling, that they had lost their edge, that the shine was off the apple, so to speak? They struggled, they had injuries ... and then they regrouped and ended up winning the AL pennant. Did they look as strong as they have in the past? Nope. Would you bet against Steinbrenner picking up three top free agents this offseason and trading a little next year to fix the holes? No, you wouldn't. Here are a few names for you, btw — Bartolo Colon, RHP; Eddie Guardado, RHP; LaTroy Hawkins, RHP; Ugueth Urbina, RHP; Sidney Ponson, RHP; Carl Everett, OF; Joe Randa, 3B; Shannon Stewart, OF; Mike Cameron, OF; Juan Gonzalez, OF; Vladimir Guerrero, OF; Reggie Sanders, OF. The full list is here. While it's not always neccessary to spend a lot (see Angels 2002, Marlins 2003) to win, it helps to spend smart. Just throwing money out there doesn't bring home a championship. The point is that despite how much everyone wants Steinbrenner to run the ship aground, he won't do it. He almost CAN'T do it. With such a huge talent base to start (Giambi, Soriano, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Mussina, Williams) and the cash to possibly land, oh, let's say Vlad and Colon, he'll have to go completely insane not to have a team at least as good as the Sox next season. And as for the detrimental effects of having George as owner, ask Jeter about all those rings he has. I think they can handle it.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:52 PM on October 27, 2003
I have to agree with wfrazerjr on this one. I loathe Steinbrenner, and the Yankees, yet they underscore the fundamental cruel truths of modern baseball: that all that Morgan-esque blather about 'chemistry' and 'intangibles' doesn't really matter if you've got 9 guys who can hit .300 and a starting rotation of which each member would be the ace of most staffs. While George can't guarantee a championship- that can't be done- he also can't fail to put a winning team on the ground: the science of scouting and player evaluation, especially in the "Moneyball" world, is such that while the efficiency of a Beane is still a rarity, the ability to recognize the value in OBP, or plate discipline, instead of the old school 'intangibles' crap, is too prevalent for any GM to make utterly stupid moves with the room for error that Steinbrenner's cash allows. The sheer size of the Yankees payroll is such that they could make a mistake the size of the entire Mariner's roster, and still have cash left over to field the entire Red Sox roster. If a player doesn't work out, they can eat his contract without pain or complications, and just go get someone better. No other team can do that- the Yankees are the only team that never has to say "we like this player, but can't afford to keep him with the other contracts from other key players". That is a huge advantage, and it means only the most braindead GM couldn't put a winning group on the field, even if it's not dollar-for-dollar the winningest team out there. And thus, for all the savvy of a Beane to find the hidden gems to field a great team on a low budget, that's a ticking clock: eventually, most teams will effectively adopt that strategy, since it's both more efficient for their bottom line and is more effective at winning. In a sense, the Sox are that way now: they're an organization that from ownership down had embraced the Bill James way of thinking- heck, they hired James!- yet also has the financial wherewithal and fanatic loyalty of the fans to have a payroll higher than most teams other than the Bronx Outliers. If all teams start to mimic Beane's savvy, then he'll either have to go back to the SABR drawing board, or realize that the Sox and Yankees and other teams willing to push the envelope of salaries will just further widen the gap between themselves and the rest of the pack. So we'll be back to where we started, only more so: Steinbrenner more than any other owner will be able to put 25 pretty damn good players on the field every night, whatever it takes, and have the cash to do it. I don't know the exact numbers, but we all know that even with a $185m payroll, the Yankees organization still made a buttload of cash this year. In a way, I envy it: Steinbrenner realized that by spending $185m, he's ensured much more comes back: unlike fans in say, oh, Seattle, New York fans know that their team is doing everything they can to win, which makes them willing to pack that stadium nightly, and keep their TVs tuned to YES. The Mariners pinching pennies and not spending an extra $3-5m in late July to pad the roster and fill in some holes will cost them considerably more than that in fans thinking the team just doesn't care, and not buying those season tickets or packing Safeco anymore.
posted by hincandenza at 01:43 AM on October 28, 2003
Regarding who a new Sox manager will be... I can't think of any good candidates. A friend and I were talking, post Baker's game 6 fiasco, and Little's Game 7 debacle, about how there are seemingly two types of managers, and no really good "two-tool" managers. There seem to be the Field Generals, the guys who have players willing to take a bullet for them, to keep the clubhouse tight, who absorb the slings and arrows of the press and management to protect his players, who work out those interpersonal issues that flair up. Little, Baker, a Lou Piniella, and even Torre to a large extent seem to be these kind of managers: they get their guys to put out their best, but when it comes the playoffs, they don't adapt, think outside the box, or make the changes necessary to move through the rapid pace of 5 and 7 game series. In Torre's case, he doesn't really have to with the rosters he usually has, but for most teams it's a critical element in the post-season. In addition, these Motivators are often fatally fond of "character" players, those can't-hit-their-weight journeymen that act all grizzly-tough and remind these managers of their own Platonic vision of their macho selves, and thus give these players way too many opportunities to hurt the team. Then there are the Tacticians, the Tony La Russas or a guy like a Davey Johnson, who only seem to be happy in a tight situation requiring a good deal of clever maneuvering to navigate. These guys make fewer "key situation" mistakes, like repeated hit-and-runs on two strikes or not having the bullpen ready at the right times, but on the other hand seem to be poor at the interpersonal issues and delivering the right decision in a way it doesn't hurt the often fragile egos of pro athletes. Despite their strength at detail-oriented play, these types of Tacticians often have flaws at managing pitchers: though mastering the double-switch or hit-and-run at the right count, they for some reason seem prone to assume young pitchers can be made to throw 130 pitches every start without incident. In the short term, it works. In the long term, it ruins the GM's career, as promising pitcher after promising pitcher gets burnt out too young. Rarely do you see managers who are both- Motivators who can make a group of players exceed their own individual levels, to fight hard to "Cowboy Up", and also Tacticians to make smart moves, and tweak that one loss into a win that is useful in the regular season and critically important in the post-season. To an extent this season, excepting a couple of questionable post-season moves, Jack McKeon managed to be that guy: his in-season moves were more about being the Motivator, to get the Marlins to act like a team that could actually win, yet he hit the post-season like he was born to the Tactician's role, become a relatively canny and strategic manager for all his 72-old-school-years. The Sox need more of the latter than the former, in the sense that it will help prevent won't be those historic Red Sox clashes between GM and Manager that we fans have grown so accustomed to. However, with Boston being as scrutinizing a media market as New York- in a class by themselves, these two cities- the Manager also needs to have touches of the Motivator, who can protect players who aren't used to or happy with the intensity of playing for the Sox, players who wilt under that light. They need a guy who can prevent a resurgence of the 25-man, 25-cab team. A fair number of heroes from this season are going to come back to earth (or as Neyer would say, "regression to the mean"), and in the fog of those mediocre seasons it could quickly become ugly if the team starts off poorly and the players spending more time assaulting each other than they do the ball. So the Sox need a rare two-tool manager, and I can't think of a damn one that's available.
posted by hincandenza at 02:12 AM on October 28, 2003
Hal: well said, both posts. [Particularly wrt Neyer- very scary how far this team could fall next year.] Leyland might qualify as a two-tool guy who is available, FWIW.
posted by tieguy at 05:57 AM on October 28, 2003
Thankfully Jim Leyland says he's not available. The last thing the Sox need is to find a decent young pitcher in their farm system and have Leyland stress-test his arm for a year.
posted by yerfatma at 06:07 AM on October 28, 2003
For those who still think that this was all about game 7, there are a couple of relevant examples of why Little got fired in this article. And ask Josh Beckett if he minds his arm being brutalized...
posted by tieguy at 06:12 AM on October 28, 2003
"I've got a new heart, there's no heart damage, I'm lifting weights and using the treadmill three times a week," Herzog said. "I tell my surgeon, I'm not worried about my heart, how about the other [expletive] parts? Tell me my liver and kidneys are OK, then I'll be happy. "You got a good club there. I thought you had a better team there than the Yankees. In fairness to the manager, it boils down to the same thing: He made the decision, if he'd gotten the Japanese guy [Hideki Matsui], he'd have been fine. But they'd already hit two bullets that inning. Screw Ermey. You have your man right there.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:31 AM on October 28, 2003
ask Josh Beckett if he minds his arm being brutalized... Ask Livan Hernandez while you're at it.
posted by yerfatma at 10:17 AM on October 28, 2003
2003 Pitcher Abuse Points from Baseball Prospectus (regular season only). Beckett isn't that bad off, but Mark Redman is in the top 5. I hope Dusty Baker personally pays for Prior's Tommy John surgery.
posted by mbd1 at 11:10 AM on October 28, 2003
Herzog is a good idea, so is TK [Tom Kelly]. When you win with less bullets than the other guys, the manager gets the credit.
posted by cg1001a at 10:51 AM on October 29, 2003
Tom Kelly - excellent choice. I highly doubt that Joe Torre would move over to Boston, not so much because of the rivalry, but because I think he has clearly said several times that once he's done with the Yankees, he's retiring. In fact, he almost did retire several years ago before re-signing. The Sox will have some guys regress but from what we've seen of Theo, he'll be able to handle that and improve the team in other areas.
posted by Bernreuther at 11:59 AM on October 29, 2003
I'd like to see Terry Francona. I think he could get the Sox a World Series championship.
posted by yerfatma at 08:39 PM on October 04, 2005
"I'm prepared for the likelihood," Little told the Globe. "I am not sure that I want to manage that team. That's how I felt when I drove out of town." Well, if THAT doesn't seal it ...