11/21/24
June 06, 2003
Pedro is running his mouth again,: this time it's about racism in the Sosa situation. This is the 2nd time it's come up that I have seen, the first being Jose Canseco. And while Pedro has more credibility in my eyes, being a bit more obviously Latino, I still think that's a bunch of crap. I seem to recall that McGwire DID have a controversy back in the day, and it was a big deal, and it DID get an Outside the Lines special made. In fact, I'd say the controversy over andro lasted longer than the Sammy situation, which has fizzled already (though partly due to how he handled it).
He also has a selfish bone to pick, not surprisingly, making sure to note that he was screwed in an MVP race and also in last year's Cy Young, which he lost to the deserving Barry Zito. Way to twist the words of Gammons, an obvious Boston homer. Now shut up and go back to the DL.
posted by Bernreuther to baseball at 10:24 AM - 35 comments
Yep, I can tell that. However, and I'm only addressing this one point here: Pedro did get robbed in the MVP race that year. One of the guys who refused to vote for him because he was a pitcher had previously given pitchers MVP votes. So, you know, maybe he's selfish about that MVP award -- but he's also absolutely right. He got screwed by a New York journalist. And they claim New York doesn't feel the rivalry the way Bostonians do...
posted by Bryant at 10:52 AM on June 06, 2003
Do not tell Pedro what other people are saying about Sosa.
posted by jasonspaceman at 11:40 AM on June 06, 2003
That MVP race reeks of the same conspiracy that cost Williams an MVP to DiMaggio back in what was it, 41? If in fact he would have won even if those guys put him 3rd or something (I can't remember), that's a big problem. I would hope that those people had their votes taken away. I agree with their voting in someone else, but it's wrong to take it upon yourself to damage someone who definitely deserved to be top 3 (or 2 or 1, I don't remember the race, but I do tend to agree that pitchers needn't win 2 awards, there's no Ted Williams award for MVHitter - though not to that extent). Anyway, it's just a bit odd to see someone decide to go on a rant about that, 4 years later, when the discussion was on a different topic. I think he was gypped more there in 99 than he was for last year's Cy Young though, that was a tossup and he has no reason to be bringing that up, especially with the slander against Gammons. In any case, the latin thing is BS, and even the Cubs rep at the news conference (8 games, btw) said that Sammy and the organization don't buy into that, and neither does Tim Kurkjian on ESPNews right now. My opinion on the 8 games is that it's fair in the context of others, though I'd have given him 5 if it was up to me. If he sticks with his appeal I bet that's what they'll reduce it to.
posted by Bernreuther at 11:49 AM on June 06, 2003
"They should have had it on 'Outside the Lines' -- Why Pedro got robbed." Please excuse me while I bitch-slap you, Pedro. To minimize Zito's incredible year, claiming that the only reason he won was racism, is incredibly disrespectful.
posted by dusted at 12:00 PM on June 06, 2003
I don't think it was racism that cost Pedro the Cy Young in 2002. But I do think he got jobbed. The writers worshipped too long at the altar of total wins. Let's do a statistical comparison of the two: Wins: Zito 23 Pedro 20 Winning %: Zito .821 Pedro .833 Games Pitched: Zito 35 Pedro 30 Innings Pitched: Zito 229.3 Pedro 199.3 Innings/Game: Zito 6.55 Pedro 6.64 Complete Games: Zito 1 Pedro 2 ERA: Zito 2.75 Pedro 2.26 Strikeouts: Zito 183 Pedro 239 K/9IP: Zito 7.18 Pedro 10.79 BB: Zito 78 Pedro 40 BB/9IP: Zito 3.06 Pedro 1.81 K/BB: Zito 2.33 Pedro 5.98 WHIP: Zito 1.13 Pedro 0.92 IP/HR: Zito 9.6 Pedro 15.3 (pardon my anti-corpse table skills) Using most of the major statistical methods of comparing two pitchers from the same league and the same year, it's quite obvious the only advantage Zito had over Pedro is that he started 5 more games for a team that won 10 more games over the season. And even in those 5 extra starts, he managed to win only 3 of the games (instead of the expected 4 wins based on his winning percentage). Otherwise, it's almost a complete statistical domination by Pedro. Yah, he got hosed. But I don't think it was racism.
posted by grum@work at 12:30 PM on June 06, 2003
I love Pedro. I do. I want him on this team because he's the best in baseball. That being said, I liked it better when he was giving us the silent treatment. Why is he waiting THIS long to complain about last year's MVP? I hate the race card being thrown out capriciously. And they claim New York doesn't feel the rivalry the way Bostonians do... the hell they don't. the hell i say! this rivalry is a two way street, but NY can keep denying it. the actions speak louder than words.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:40 PM on June 06, 2003
Bernreuther, it's really surprising that you're a Yankees fan and you have that sort of vitriol for Pedro. I thought Yankees fans were above the rivalry, content to buy the pennant every year. That said, the claims of racism are fairly unfounded. When Pedro was robbed of the MVP, it went to Ivan Rodriguez. Barry Zito winning the ALCY last year was similar to Karl Malone winning the NBA MVP a few years back; everyone was tired of giving it to MJ. The hullabaloo over Sosa seems to have a lot more to do with the fact that the guy is obviously (to some) juicing, and his accomplishments were already questionable before the incident. So the real question is, what is so awful about Pedro's life that he's in such a foul mood all the time lately? I suppose it could be the constant injuries or finishing in second place for 5 years running...
posted by eldoop at 12:46 PM on June 06, 2003
B-I-T-C-H ... and Pedro was his name, oh! "[He was] standing up and saying, 'No, I'm going with Zito because we need a new face in baseball. We're tired of seeing the same Pedro on the team, the same face as Pedro all the time. We need a fresh face, a guy that plays guitar, is cute, a white Caucasian. We don't want the Latin [expletive] to be in front of the TV all the time.' A white Causasian?
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:05 PM on June 06, 2003
Eldoop, I'll concede that coincidence but actually I'm one of the mildest Yankee fans with the least amount of Sox-hatred that you'll find. My Pedro hatred is independent of teams. I hated him in Montreal too. I get really opinionated when it comes to people I really can't stand, and lose my level headedness though, I will admit. Grum, I don't understand this sentence: And even in those 5 extra starts, he managed to win only 3 of the games (instead of the expected 4 wins based on his winning percentage). I think the general consensus was that he wasn't on the DL, he pitched against more quality opponents, and he really did seem pretty damn dominant for most of the year. And, possibly, some others shared my opinion on the end of last year. I only bring that up because I was just reading a thread on this same topic at USCHO, started by and composed of Red Sox fans, and even the Sox people brought it up. Which surprised me because you people tended to disagree with me here :) (quote from Sox diehard: "pedro needs to shut his mouth. if he wanted the cy young, he shouldn;'t have walked out on his team with a week to go in the season. screw him.") I won't start a fight over whether he should have pitched, but a little thing like that could contribute to sway a tight Cy race. 99: I won't go so far as to publicly admit that my hated rival deserved it, but IRod was not the MVP. I do remember that much. But yeah, the real question is, why is he whining about this stuff now? What is so awful about Pedro's life that he's in such a foul mood all the time lately? :)
posted by Bernreuther at 01:17 PM on June 06, 2003
"pedro needs to shut his mouth. if he wanted the cy young, he shouldn;'t have walked out on his team with a week to go in the season. screw him." We're going to come to the table and agree, for once, Bern. Pedro shut it down last year once Boston was out of contention, he's well quoted as such. He's babied and in some cases, rightfully so based on his past injuries and his brother's physical history. Undeniably, he had a terrific season last year, but when you make public your plans to pack it in early, stop racing and give up on your team, you forfeit your qualification in any kind of accolades for being "the best" and "the most valuable". He wasn't injured, he wasn't on the DL - he essentially withdrew from the season. Are Cy Young voters supposed to ignore that? So what do you have left for Cy Young? D. Lo and Zito. D. Lo was great, Zito was better. Pedro has been insatiable all year. There is no pleasing him, no matter how many of his demands are met. He wanted his contract extension - even calling out the team owners in the press, telling them if they "respected" him, they'd extend the 2004 option. Feeling the pressure, the owners extended his option and almost immediately, Pedro was back in the press expressing dismay about not having a new contract drawn up, blah blah blah. Give me a break. Can we just play ball? Am I asking too much here?
posted by jerseygirl at 01:38 PM on June 06, 2003
I think the bottom line is that Pedro has to go. It's pretty obvious he wants out. So, what's a fair deal? Who gets him? And do the BoSox move him this season? AND ... given the latest round of whining, would you want him on your team for what it would cost to get him?
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:48 PM on June 06, 2003
He can't go, because Steinbrenner will grab him in a second. If we traded Pedro to a different team, Steinbrenner will deal for him like he did for Clemens. And honestly, we're still cleaning the pie off our faces from the "Good luck in the twilight of your career, Rocket Clemens" send-off party. Despite his whining, I don't think he has any aspirations to pitch anywhere else. If anything, he'll retire and go live like the king he is in the Dominican Republic.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:07 PM on June 06, 2003
glad we agree, Jerseygirl, what is this world coming to? :) (that was a quote from the other board though, made by a hockey fan named Darin - I just posted it cause I never thought a Sox fan would agree) But then I was reminded of how Sox fans got all over Clemens for giving up in the 86 series, even though the manager pulled him. So really, it makes me wonder why so many fans now were happy to let him take the day off. Hm. (more on managers pulling pitchers in a second) With Pedro, I don't usually find fault as much with what he does as how he does it. He just presents a me-first, selfish, whiney baby act. Basically, he has no tact. Let's just say he's right about the Cy last year, and the MVP in 99. What other player would bring that up in the same situation? That is one of those situations where a tried and true sports cliche is absolutely (for once) called for! "what did you think about the voters not giving you that MVP?" "well, what are you gonna do, I gave it my all, gave the team a chance to win, I think I did all I could, but that's not my call, it's the voter's call. A championship ring is what it's all about, not individual awards." Tact. Taking the last start off, if done by most others, would be more of the "skip, what do you say we give this meaningless start to the rookie" type thing, where the team announces it. I never would have said a word. Instead he comes out with it, acts like a little kid, and gave out a "it doesn't matter so why bother" vibe. And that's why I don't like him. It may be odd for you all to hear this, but WFrazer, I would really be sad to see him go. He's one of the best pitchers ever, and guys like those shouldn't be tossed from team to team. And it's good for the rivalry (this Yankee fan actually cheered when Duquette was canned - what good is a rivalry when the other team runs itself into the ground of its own accord?) too. But yeah, most likely the Boss would go after him too. And I've already got one ex Sox jerk on my team that I'm forced to like, along with a jerk 3rd baseman and overhyped useless right fielder (who has been impressing me this year, though, for the most part). Heh, there's another little comparison to draw. A lot of the things the Boss says and does are true, valid, factual, whatever, but noone likes him and he gets mean columns written whenever he opens his mouth. Because he's an attention whore whiner. A very dislikable person. But, in the end, a good owner. (well, now, not in the 80s.) Pedro - tactless mouthy jerk, but the best damn pitcher in the game.
posted by Bernreuther at 02:41 PM on June 06, 2003
Didn't Pedro say he wasn't going to talk to the media anymore this season? I wish he'd follow his own advice. I mean, I expect Jose Canseco to make turn the Sosa story into a racial issue because he wants attention.
posted by Jugwine at 02:58 PM on June 06, 2003
Gammons, an obvious Boston homer HAHAHAHA-- hoo-wee, that was a good one. Gammons never misses a chance to stick it to Sox management. There was a bit of a honeymoon period with the new ownership and then with Theo where I thought we were going to see a thaw, but he's back to his old tricks.
posted by yerfatma at 02:58 PM on June 06, 2003
99: I won't go so far as to publicly admit that my hated rival deserved it, but IRod was not the MVP. I do remember that much It was a close one
posted by catfish at 03:01 PM on June 06, 2003
well, from what I've seen, he sticks it to the management but it's because he's passionate as a fan. I've never seen him be unfair or anything with the team and players, and while I haven't seen it lately, last year I really noticed some definite Sox favoritism. Wish I could think of some examples, but I've seen it. I stick it to Giants, Islanders, and Hurricanes management every chance I get, in case you were wondering, and the Yankee management when they deserve it too :) For instance, I hardly think that grabbing an old man with a barely .700 OPS was worth trading one of the few remaining prospects today...
posted by Bernreuther at 03:18 PM on June 06, 2003
I agree that Pedro shutting it down in the final week of the season was a stupid thing to do, and it may have affected the way the voters decided on the Cy Young award balloting. Grum, I don't understand this sentence: And even in those 5 extra starts, he managed to win only 3 of the games (instead of the expected 4 wins based on his winning percentage). Ugh. I didn't explain that well at all. I meant to say that the only advantage that Zito has statistically over Pedro is that he had 5 more starts than him. And in those 5 extra starts (35 vs 30 for Pedro), he still ended up with only 3 extra wins (23 vs 20 for Pedro). Otherwise, there is no other statistical reason to suggest that Zito was better than Pedro in 2002. I think the general consensus was that he wasn't on the DL, Agreed. Durability should be considered, but shouldn't be the only factor. But in this case that's the only advantage he shows, and not by a huge margin. Zito finished first in Games Started (35) and Pedro finished T-23rd (30). If durability was that important, then Roy Halladay should have gotten the Cy Young as he threw more innings than anyone else in the AL last year. he pitched against more quality opponents Probably acceptable. Zito pitched 18 games against teams with a better than .500 record and won 11 of them. Pedro pitched 12 games against teams with a winning record and won 7 of them. Zito won 12 of 17 games started against sub-500 teams, Pedro won 13 of 18 games. dominant for most of the year. But Pedro was more dominant than Zito for the whole year. Pre-all-star ERA: Zito 3.49 Pedro 2.72 Post-all-star ERA: Zito 1.92 Pedro 1.61 I agree that Pedro is making an ass of himself by using racism as the reason he didn't get the Cy Young in 2002. But if he were to ask the voters "Why did you vote for Zito instead of me?", I wonder what their answer would be? It's either an unwavering belief that pitcher wins are the most important category (but that's only held true in 4 of the past 10 AL Cy Young votes), or there is some other reason completely unrelated to performance. Is it because they think he's a jerk? Then how did Barry Bonds end up with 5 MVP awards?
posted by grum@work at 03:22 PM on June 06, 2003
Then how did Barry Bonds end up with 5 MVP awards? I think the question is why does Barry Bonds only have 5 MVP awards. You could make the argument that Barry lost the MVP award in '01 to Jeff Kent because people thought he was a jerk.
posted by Jugwine at 03:30 PM on June 06, 2003
Jugwine, didn't he also lose out on one to Pendelton while with the Pirates as well? I think I remember reading something about how he was more screwed out of that one than by Kent. Kent had an outstanding year, and I think that little extra boost from a non-productive (traditionally) position made people notice. But still, not the best on the team, not the MVP. But I think that I've heard the other one was worse. Damn, and I thought 5 MVPs was a lot... he could have 7. In any case, people don't like bonds, but I think he's gotten better, and is a bit more well liked now than before. Even still, at least some of his MVPs (certainly the last 2) have come in years where there really was no question. You couldn't really even put together a valid argument for any opponent, so love him or hate him, he was going to win. Probaly going to go to someone else this year, he's been pretty quiet so far... Grum, I think that it's a mishmash of everything. a tiny bit of attitude bias, bias towards Zito on the team with the better competition, team that made the playoffs, durability, the last start, Pedro having another teammate who ran pretty well to help shoulder the load, etc. Not that you can "split the Sox vote" in a vote where you can pick 1-2-3, but I think maybe it's possible that some used the "more valuable to the team" metric, slightly altered, to establish that Zito was more responsible for his team's success than was Pedro, because lowe had a lot to do with it. Then again, so did Mulder and Hudson. basically, it was a tossup. And a little of everything contributed. Also, didn't Zito pitch extremely well right down the stretch at the very end, against top teams? "clutch" play may also have had something to do with it, which would explain why I think popular opinion before the vote was that Zito was favored. I remember thinking it was a forgone conclusion that Zito would win, for several weeks before the vote was released, just based on what the TV was telling me.
posted by Bernreuther at 04:14 PM on June 06, 2003
Lots of jaw-dropping stuff in this link. I had no idea Pedro Martinez was such an egotistical drama queen. Maybe he isn't as fluent a whiner in English as he would be in Spanish. The media has lionized Sosa for years -- his exceptionally positive treatment is one of the reasons it's such a big story. Where were the racists in the press when Sammy was getting huge press for being a good guy and a star who helped inspire McGwire to break the home run record? I have trouble believing they would lie in wait for an entire decade, waiting for a chance to tear down the Latino. One thing I have to ask about the post, though -- what's the deal with the comment that "Pedro has more credibility in my eyes, being a bit more obviously Latino" than Jose Canseco. Say what? Canseco isn't physically Latino enough to speak credibly on race?
posted by rcade at 04:20 PM on June 06, 2003
I'll gladly apologize for that. I should have just said that Canseco has no credibility anyway, and just says things to get attention. What I was thinking was that Canseco doesn't usually act as a voice for latino activism, isn't often even regarded, at first glance, as a minority (since he looks like a white italian guy), and when he came out to say something my first reaction was "oh, so when did you start caring?" Actually, my first reaction was "He's lat- oh, yeah, I guess so."
posted by Bernreuther at 04:48 PM on June 06, 2003
Pedro's getting dealt. He held out for the option year, when normally the Sox would have waited to see if he was injured this season. He promptly got injured. And the Red Sox have a lot of big contracts to struggle with. I don't think he'll be pitching for the Sox past the end of next season. Which is sad. He's quite possibly the best single game pitcher ever. He is the guy I'd want as my #1 pitcher in a World Series. If he was more durable, I would firmly expect him to win 300 games. But... he is what he is, and that means he's not the most valuable pitcher in baseball.
posted by Bryant at 04:59 PM on June 06, 2003
Pedro's getting dealt. Sure. Right before Fenway goes up in flames. No one is that dense. are they?
posted by yerfatma at 09:48 PM on June 06, 2003
I love when the race card gets played. Problem is, a lot of these players grow up thinking respect means a big paycheck, and when they realize they still don't get respect, they play the card. What they never seem to get is you have to give respect to get it. Even Sheffield is sounding off, can you think of a player with more talent that has had more personality conflicts in his career? Look in the mirror Gary.
posted by usfbull at 10:13 PM on June 06, 2003
I'm not sure it'd be dense. Consider: you have Nomar, Pedro, Manny, and Varitek all under big contracts. It's not gonna be feasible to keep all four of them. Who do you trade? Pedro is great. Absolutely great. But if I'm Epstein, I'm wondering how much longer he holds up. If I sign him for a new long term contract, I've got to acknowledge that I'm going to lose him for 1-2 months out of every season. Hopefully it'll be in the middle of the season; at the worst, it's towards the end in the middle of a pennant race. So no, I don't think he's untouchable.
posted by Bryant at 08:50 AM on June 07, 2003
I didn't say he's untouchable. I don't think it's do-able from a PR perspective. Epstein's done a very good job so far, but a large number of "fans" don't think so/ know so and Boston's media is more than happy to lead them astray. Fans will accept a great deal of reshaping to match the team to your ideas, but I think trading Pedro would take it too far. Can we take Manny and Varitek off that list? Manny is untradeable— no one is going to see a Manny or A-Rod size contract for a while (I'll say 7-10 years) due to market sensibility and a bit of collusion (if I had to guess); Varitek is over-rated. I love the guy for his toughness and his ability to block the plate, but I don't see any dropoff in the Sox' game when Mirabelli's in there and Doug's labeled as a "journeyman catcher." Varitek never made The Leap we hoped for. I'd hate to see him turn into Pudge Fisk for someone else, but it ain't gonna happen.
posted by yerfatma at 09:52 AM on June 07, 2003
Pedro's a big time fan favorite around here, maybe slightly beating out Manny and Nomar. Trading him would backfire on the management, much like "taking a few years to suck really bad so we can rebuild the team" would backfire on the management. You can't get away with that stuff in Boston. Although... if he started to slack off entirely, much like Clemens did, and he kept mouthing off, I think you'd see a change in opinion around here about him. That being said, the Yankees would still grab him in a second.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:07 AM on June 07, 2003
If he don't behave himself he could always be put in the hall of fame as an Expo ;)
posted by Space Coyote at 10:21 AM on June 07, 2003
I think Pedro lost some points in the hearts of fans when he took the last few games off last season. I say this despite agreeing with him. (And I'm a Boston fan, living in the Boston area, btw.) He's also not doing himself any good refusing to talk to the media. S'a good point about Varitek, now that you mention it. I was noticing how much Mirabelli has been starting this year, so maybe Varitek's likely to be traded. It wasn't meant as the "untouchable" list, btw, it was the list of big contracts.
posted by Bryant at 12:25 PM on June 07, 2003
I think that even if it would be the right move (and I tend to think it would be, especially if a good package came in return), the media and fans would crucify Epstein, especially after what happened with Clemens. It'd just kill his reputation, and the only thing that'd bring it back would be if Pedro tanked or spent so much time on the DL in the 2 years following, that people would cave. But in the meantime, he'd be under the gun like noone else. And yes, if he was traded, and then he didn't get hurt or turn bad, the Boss would go after him. I'd wager 60-40 or 65-35 that a long term contract for pedro after this one ends would end up being a bad investment, just due to durability, as well as the fact that he might retire in maybe 06 or 07 anyway... I'm with Yerfatma on Varitek. I think he's good, but would be less valuable to another team than the Sox. Fan favorite status skews the perception a little bit... look at Jeter ;)
posted by Bernreuther at 01:56 PM on June 07, 2003
Yeah, but the flip side is equally bad for Epstein. Imagine if he signs Pedro for the kind of money Pedro will want, and then Pedro spends most of the rest of his career on the DL? The Boston media will rip him to pieces.
posted by Bryant at 05:46 PM on June 07, 2003
The Boston media will rip him to pieces. I think of that as a sunk cost for Boston-area GMs.
posted by yerfatma at 12:07 PM on June 08, 2003
I think of that as a sunk cost for Boston-area GMs. Ha! It's so true.
posted by Bryant at 03:22 PM on June 08, 2003
As you can probably tell, I think Pedro is a selfish jerk who is alternately full of himself or full of shit. To claim racism in the Sosa matter is absurd, the facts are wrong in the comparison to McGwire, and while yes, there is a lot of press about it, it has been very honest, optimistic, and level-headed, from what I've seen. It's not like they're saying "look, that colored guy is a cheater, haha! Let's crucify him!" or even anything remotely close. This was a big deal because he's one of the (if not THE) game's biggest names, with huge numbers, and he got caught cheating. The big press was deserved, and if it did happen to McGwire, or Barry, or if Johnson or Schilling or Clemens got caught with sandpaper, the exact same thing would happen in the media. Or perhaps even worse, because I suspect that only the retired one in that list would have the grace and tact to handle it as well as Sammy did. Apparently the sentence might come down today, though I'd be really surprised if they knock him out of the Yankee series... And hey look, I went to a sports site other than ESPN for a link! :) Though honestly, there's more relevant info in the 2nd link than the first...