11/05/24
August 12, 2009
Bill Simmons on Ramirez, Ortiz and the List That Shouldn't Exist: ESPN.Com columnist and Red Sox fan Bill Simmons wrestles with the reports about Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz. "On Saturday, when ESPN Classic showed Game 6 of the 2004 American League Championship Series (the Bloody Sock game), I watched it a little differently," he writes. "We expect the worst. We are prepared to be disappointed by any baseball player. It's a sad place to be."
I think the point he was getting at was ascribing any special meaning to the tense shift, but bemoaning that the circumstances such as they are cause him to over parse it. What I don't get is what does the person(s) leaking the information from this list (which was supposed to be completely confidential as part of getting the players to take part in 2003) stand to gain from dribbling out these names one by one?
posted by trox at 01:10 PM on August 12, 2009
What I don't get is what does the person(s) leaking the information from this list (which was supposed to be completely confidential as part of getting the players to take part in 2003) stand to gain from dribbling out these names one by one?
A lengthy jail term once it's uncovered as to who is the culprit behind the leaked information.
posted by BornIcon at 01:33 PM on August 12, 2009
Aside from that of course.
posted by trox at 01:40 PM on August 12, 2009
What I don't get is what does the person(s) leaking the information from this list (which was supposed to be completely confidential as part of getting the players to take part in 2003) stand to gain from dribbling out these names one by one?
Is your question the fact that names are being leaked, or that they're leaked one by one?
posted by inigo2 at 01:44 PM on August 12, 2009
Aside from that of course.
Of course.
Is your question the fact that names are being leaked, or that they're leaked one by one?
I don't mean to speak for anyone and over step my bounderies but from what I gathered, trox would like to know what does the person who is leaking this information gain from all of this. Am I correct, trox?
IMO, I have no F'N idea.
posted by BornIcon at 01:50 PM on August 12, 2009
A lengthy jail term once it's uncovered as to who is the culprit behind the leaked information.
Clearly, the leakers are in no fear of getting caught. I'm guessing that is because a lot of people had access to the list after it was seized by the government.
posted by rcade at 02:32 PM on August 12, 2009
what does the person who is leaking this information gain from all of this
Well, maybe they're annoyed that these top players were caught cheating without any repercussion, and simply feel like it should be publicly known. I know I do. (And I'm not willing to get into a debate about definitions of "cheating" right now, so don't bother, please.)
Why leak the names one at a time, I don't know (hence my request for clarification on the original question). Maybe they just don't have access to the full list or something.
posted by inigo2 at 02:48 PM on August 12, 2009
Well, maybe they're annoyed that these top players were caught cheating without any repercussion, and simply feel like it should be publicly known
But leaking these names is only going to send whoever is doing it to jail and like rcade pointed out, they obviously are not afraid of the repercussion that's going to come out of this. I hear what you're saying but what I would like to know is why would that person feel compelled to be the one to release the names that are being leaked? Why do they feel as if they should be the 'gaurdian angel' of the MLB?
I was thinking about it in this manner: What if it were you? Would you want someone to reveal something about you that you felt you were safe from anyone finding out but it was and someone told everyone about it?
The list was supposed to remain anonymous and this person or persons took it upon themselves to leak government sealed information.
posted by BornIcon at 03:06 PM on August 12, 2009
If I had access to the list and was a total asshole, I would leak a few big player names in the hope of getting a payoff from some of the other big players on the list to not leak their names.
Yeah, so blackmail is the simplest reason.
posted by Joey Michaels at 03:09 PM on August 12, 2009
And you would have absolutely no fear in going to jail for a very long time after eventually you're found out to be the leak? Couldn't be me, I enjoy freedom.
posted by BornIcon at 03:14 PM on August 12, 2009
BornIcon hit it right on the head. Legal Issues aside, why these players. Obviously ARod and Ortiz are superstars, but some of the other names that have been leaked, not so much (Jason Grimsley and David Segui come to mind). Very odd.
posted by trox at 03:43 PM on August 12, 2009
Well, maybe they're annoyed that these top players were caught cheating without any repercussion, and simply feel like it should be publicly known
Interesting...that's exactly how I feel about the person who is illegally releasing this information.
Love how we feel entitled to information (about a sport, no less) even if it is at the expense of someones rights.
And I'm not willing to get into a debate about definitions of "cheating" right now
Then don't use the word. (Because they did NOT cheat, so when you say that they did, you're certainly going to get someone who argues that point).
posted by bdaddy at 05:21 PM on August 12, 2009
I'm not saying a blackmailer would have to be a smart person (quite the opposite, in fact). Just saying that in my opinion that's the most likely explanation.
posted by Joey Michaels at 05:21 PM on August 12, 2009
My other vote for likely explanation is a low-level employee at a law firm or other company involved in the proceedings. When I worked as a customer service drone at an insurance company, one of the few perks of the job was pulling the files of pro athletes. It wouldn't be hard to print out/ copy relevant docs and get them to a paper. Low chance of getting caught and even if you do all your company is going to do is fire you because reporting you to the cops means outing themselves as the source of a leak.
posted by yerfatma at 05:33 PM on August 12, 2009
I would think it would be pretty easy to "out" a blackmailer especially now that those who have been "outed" could get the info from those who are threatened to be "outed" and then "out" the source of the "outings."
Player: "Hey Papi, just got a call from XYZ who wants some money from me to keep my name clean, want to help? Just don't use my name OK."
Papi: "Bet your ass I will." (No pun intended.)
posted by gfinsf at 07:01 AM on August 13, 2009
My other vote for likely explanation is a low-level employee at a law firm or other company involved in the proceedings.
I was actually thinking the same thing. Not that some big wig suit couldn't be the source but with a lot more to lose, I got my money on some low level temp of some sort.
posted by BornIcon at 08:19 AM on August 13, 2009
I hear what you're saying but what I would like to know is why would that person feel compelled to be the one to release the names that are being leaked?
Because they have access to the names, and nobody else is releasing any?
Then don't use the word. (Because they did NOT cheat, so when you say that they did, you're certainly going to get someone who argues that point).
Cheat cheat cheat cheat cheat. If not against the letter of the laws of baseball, then against the spirit. And in some cases, the laws of the US.
posted by inigo2 at 08:46 AM on August 13, 2009
If not against the letter of the laws of baseball, then against the spirit
You're right. The spirit of the game has been cheated, but the question is: for how long? It's not just this era that has cheated the game but you can go back as far as when the game was whites only. That era cheated the best players from participating in America's pastime because of the color of their skin.
People in the position to make the decision to allow the best players to play the game ignored this travesty until Branch Rickey began to scout the Negro League for talent in the 40's and selected Jackie Robinson in what was called "The Noble Experiment".
posted by BornIcon at 09:34 AM on August 13, 2009
It's not just this era that has cheated the game but you can go back as far as when the game was whites only.
Straw man. I'm not arguing that baseball was ever pure. Just because things were wrong in the past, doesn't make cheating today okay.
posted by inigo2 at 09:37 AM on August 13, 2009
I'm not saying that it is. There are plenty of aspects of the game that can be pointed out for having flaws but to make the claim that the game was cheated because players anonymously took a drug test to determine if the game needed a drug policy and then those test results were leaked anonymously by an individual with access to them and revealed who tested positive, is ignoring that MLB never had a drug policy instituted at that time for them to be cheating the game, they were cheating themselves.
I'm not saying that players taking PED's is ok, let's get that out of the way. I just don't believe that these players should be facing this sort of public criticism over taking an anonymous drug test that was supposed to help the game but because one or more individuals decided to take matters into their own hands, the results were leaked.
Remember, steroids may be illegal but they weren't illegal to take in baseball (?)...I honestly still don't know what that means but it is what it is but the person(s) that leaked this information will be the one facing jail time.
posted by BornIcon at 10:10 AM on August 13, 2009
to make the claim that the game was cheated because players anonymously took a drug test to determine if the game needed a drug policy
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the game was cheated because players took steroids (and other similar drugs).
is ignoring that MLB never had a drug policy instituted at that time for them to be cheating the game, they were cheating themselves.
Hence why I said they didn't break the rules, but the spirit of the rules; I'm not ignoring that fact.
I'm also not saying this was all handled correctly. And yeah, sucks for the few guys that had their names leaked after a supposedly anonymous test. But hey, if they didn't take steroids their names wouldn't be on that list regardless. Sure, this "anonymous" drug test was to help the game; how generous of them. Another way to help would've been for the players union to simply say "you're right, we don't like steroids either, and we're willing to be tested." Just like other major sports/sporting competitions.
But we might be in agree-to-disagree territory :) Don't get me wrong; I'm not all self righteous about steroids in baseball. Don't think it's right, but I'm not too concerned about it, to be honest. But I also can't seem to get worked up about players that did them getting outed.
posted by inigo2 at 12:17 PM on August 13, 2009
I'm arguing that the game was cheated because players took steroids (and other similar drugs).
I agree with that point. There's no disproving that any pro athlete that uses drugs as a source to be bigger and stronger than their opponent and/or teammates, is cheating. The only difference is that since there was no drug policy in place to say, "If you use (insert choice of drug here) then you're in direct violation of the drug policy", then they weren't really cheating per se. I guess you could say that it's just a loop hole.
....if they didn't take steroids their names wouldn't be on that list regardless
That's not entirely accurate. It's not just steriods that these atheletes had in their system that brought forth a positive result, it's anything else that they were taking that was on the banned list (i.e. ephedrine or androtestine) or going to be on the banned list (e.g. steroids) after they recieved the results. No one can necessarily say that all of the names on the list are of players taking steriods until all of the facts are out..but we can speculate since we have no other choice.
posted by BornIcon at 12:37 PM on August 13, 2009
It's typical Bill Simmons. I can't say I disagree with much of it. It's all there (disappointment, but historical perspective, plus the 'we kinda knew all along' idea) wrapped up nicely in 20,000 words.
Cheat cheat cheat cheat cheat. If not against the letter of the laws of baseball, then against the spirit. And in some cases, the laws of the US.
BALCO chemist says Papi could be telling truth Chemist Patrick Arnold, who was sent to prison amid the BALCO scandal, told the New York Daily News that it's possible Ortiz took 19-norandrostenedione, a supplement that contained the steroid nandrolone and was available for legal purchase in 2003.
"Yes, people back then did test positive because of supplements, and occasionally it was for nandrolone, which I think (Ortiz) is alluding to, but not verbatim," Arnold told the Daily News. "If he could say it was nandrolone, I'd say, 'OK, you may have a case.' In lieu of the fact there are no exact details (about what Ortiz took), the possibility of having a false positive from supplement use in 2003 is definitely plausible. We'll never learn if this is an excuse (for players) or a legitimate defense until we know more details about the substances in question."
Dr. Gary Wadler, who heads the committee that determines the World Anti-Doping Agency's banned-substances list, also said Ortiz's explanation was believable, given that before January 2005 many over-the-counter substances could cause positive tests, the Associated Press reported Saturday.
"It's entirely conceivable that he was caught up in the same mentality of taking dietary supplements such as protein powders and creatine, believing he was safe as far as drug testing," Wadler told the AP.
I'm not saying I believe this explains what Ortiz did, or that I believe him, but it's possible, for Ortiz, or any of the other names. And if that's ever the case, yelling 'cheater' becomes a flimsy accusation, no matter how many times you repeat it.
There are so many questions in this whole scenario, it amazes me how many fans believe they've got it all figured out so perfectly.
posted by justgary at 12:20 AM on August 14, 2009
it amazes me how many fans believe they've got it all figured out so perfectly.
God forbid I draw conclusions. Never said I had it figured out perfectly.
Yes, it is plausible that some over the counter supplement led to his failed test. But, "In lieu of the fact there are no exact details (about what Ortiz took)", I guess we'll never know. Unless maybe he would say what he took; then this wouldn't be an issue. But, shockingly, he won't. Golly, that's amazing.
Also, Manny was taking his pregnancy drugs because he was having problems getting pregnant, not because it was a steroid mask.
posted by inigo2 at 10:31 AM on August 14, 2009
I guess we'll never know. Unless maybe he would say what he took; then this wouldn't be an issue. But, shockingly, he won't. Golly, that's amazing.
From what I've heard (and maybe I'm wrong about this), the reason as to why he hasn't come out and told the media and public as to what he took that gave him this positive result is because MLB is not telling him what he tested positive for. We're talking about 6 years ago, so if it's true that ballplayers were buying over the counter supplements before MLB had a drug policy and they really weren't worried too much about what was in these supplements since there wasn't a policy, this could in fact mean that Ortiz is telling the truth.
Also, Manny was taking his pregnancy drugs because he was having problems getting pregnant, not because it was a steroid mask.
My snark-o-meter hit a 10 on this remark.
posted by BornIcon at 10:59 AM on August 14, 2009
My snark-o-meter hit a 10 on this remark.
Yeah, sorry 'bout that... Stupid Vick signing+hangover=grumpy mood. My apologies.
posted by inigo2 at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2009
Yeah, sorry 'bout that... Stupid Vick signing+hangover=grumpy mood. My apologies.
Unnecessary. It was actually a pretty good one.
posted by BornIcon at 09:25 AM on August 18, 2009
God forbid I draw conclusions. Never said I had it figured out perfectly.
Generally when someone chants "cheat" 5 times I conclude they're pretty sure of themselves. But if I read you wrong, my apologies.
But, shockingly, he won't. Golly, that's amazing.
I've already said many times that I don't think Ortiz is telling the whole truth since he lacks any details in his excuse.
That said, we have a test from 6 years ago, taken under the pretense of anonymity, which may or may not have false positives, where we're getting the accused released one by one by who the hell knows, and without any details regarding what exactly was found in the accused players. So I think they deserve at least the smallest benefit of the doubt. Most fans aren't willing to do that. They refuse any nuance. He's on the list? Cheat, cheat, cheat...
Also, Manny was taking his pregnancy drugs because he was having problems getting pregnant, not because it was a steroid mask.
Manny failed a sanctioned MLB drug test, and we know exactly what he failed, and why he failed. Bornicon is wrong. It has nothing to do with this discussion and sheds no light on the 2003 drug test. But, then again, I'm pretty sure you already know that already.
posted by justgary at 03:39 PM on August 18, 2009
Past tense for the first sentence, present tense for the second. Was that an intentional slip by David Ortiz in Saturday's news conference? Did he pull a Sammy Sosa and dumb himself down?
I'm a avid Sports Guy reader so I always enjoy his column but coming from a spanish background, I can tell you that my mother speak's english rather well but sometimes when she says things, it sounds as if she "dumb(s) [her]self down" (whatever the hell that means). It's not by intention nor am I speaking for David Ortiz, but sometimes dealing with people who's second language is english, their words can sound a bit off.
Then again, maybe Ortiz knew exactly what he was saying. I don't think so but you never know.