11/21/24
July 12, 2009
Brock Lesnar batters Frank Mir: Brock Lesnar, the former World Wrestling Entertainment fighter and current UFC heavyweight champion, battered Frank Mir in a second-round knockout to set aside a festering year of bitterness. As Arash Markazi writes in Sports Illustrated, Lesnar's post-fight antics were the greatest heel move outside of professional wrestling.
I felt ashamed last night after the fight for UFC. I guess he forgot he's not doing a show for WWE. What a dick.
Mir didn't have anything for him. Is there anyone in Heavyweight division that can compete with this guy. It would have to be someone strong enough to block the take downs. At least until Fedor arrives.
posted by sgtcookzane at 11:05 AM on July 12, 2009
I'm always fascinated by talk of sportsmanship when it comes to these events. Does it not strike people as the least bit ironic that we would expect these guys to act with some class when we've paid to watch a veritable bloodsport? And all that trash talk prior to the fights is somehow acceptable promotion?
The best part of it all, to put some of this in context, is the praise for Herb Dean--the referee in the match--for giving Mir multiple chances to do something as those punishing blows started to repeat at the end of the fight.
Don't get me wrong, in that same blood-lusting way, I'm glad he didn't stop the fight too early. And the predatory nature that Henderson showed to stamp that one final blow in the earlier fight was like watching a lion go for the throat of a wildebeest or some other National Geographic Channel highlight reel clip. Incredible.
These guys are amazingly fit, and incredible athletes ... no doubt about it. But to expect "class" and "etiquette" and "sportsmanship" is, at times, just our own way of trying to justify our own blood-lust as somehow okay. Or am I wrong?
posted by Spitztengle at 11:32 AM on July 12, 2009
Heh. At least it gives the next guy to beat Lesnar (please please get Fedor) carte blance to go apeshit in victory.
posted by jmd82 at 11:42 AM on July 12, 2009
Lots of them act with class. Others don't. GSP was pretty classy. So were John Fitch and Tiago Alves.
Dana White and Co. come from a boxing background - the trash talking and pre-fight boasting should be expected; it's the natue of the promotion.
Lesnar clearly enjoys being the bad guy and seems to revert back to the cartoonish wrestling villan at times, but he's still really new to this and has been thrust into the spotlight much more quickly than most - I wouldn't think it too surprising that when it comes to the talking, he's doing what he knows.
For the record, Lesnar apologized for his behaviour on the post fight ESPN show.
Now - can we talk about the fights?
Lesnar needs some competition - He destroyed Mir, who I thought honestly had a shot. I can't see Cain Velasquez or anyone else really challenging him. He needs to fight Fedor. But even then, Fedor is such a small man by comparison. It's the only fight that seems to make sense.
And how about GSP? I think my only complaint is that he didn't finish Alves. Utter domination. Alves was able to get up because he's a ridiculous 170 lber - he looks as big as Tito Ortiz - but he couldn't mount any offence at all - and that's all he does. I can't imagine who's next for GSP after Alves slaughtered everyone on his way to get his ass kicked. Just like Fitch.
And that Henderson knock-out was just brutal. I did not feel good about that second punch until Bisping got up. Lesnar might have acted like an asshole but at least he didn't do something like that. Henderson was the real heel last night.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:02 PM on July 12, 2009
I have never really watched any MMA, but caught the Lesnar-Mir one on YouTube. Are the fights always as boring as the one last night? One huge dude on top of another huge dude pounding his face in? I would imagine there has to be a more technical element to many fights, right? (And I'm sure there was some technique on display last night, but with fellas that big, it just looked to my untrained eye like a bit of grappling, followed by a take-down, followed by the guy on top sitting on the guy on bottom and getting in punches whichever which way he could.) Not trying to stir the pot (I really have literally never seen a UFC fight), but would that fight be considered a good one?
posted by holden at 03:39 PM on July 12, 2009
Last link ("post-fight antics") is dead.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 05:22 PM on July 12, 2009
I'm always fascinated by talk of sportsmanship when it comes to these events. Does it not strike people as the least bit ironic that we would expect these guys to act with some class when we've paid to watch a veritable bloodsport?
I don't think so. Though it's a "bloodsport" to the audience, to the participants it's a job they've been engaged in for months if not years. Most boxers and MMA fighters don't go all WWF on their defeated foe. They act like they've been there before.
posted by rcade at 06:03 PM on July 12, 2009
Mir was looking solid at the start of round 2 before that scramble and takedown. Nice job by Lesnar working out of the half guard once he got Mir down, there aren't many submission opportunities from the bottom in half guard. Not sure if Lesnar meant to be in half guard but it worked out nicely. I'm continually amazed by Lesnar's athleticism, he moves like a guy that is 50 pounds(at least) lighter than him.
That Henderson punch was scary to watch. I hope he didn't realize that Bisping was out but that seems very unlikely. Great knockout though, set up punch to the body and then the overhand right as hard as he could swing it.
Edit- Ok, I just watched the post fight interview and Henderson admits he knew Bisping was out. This, to me, is worse than Lesner's buffoonery. Lesner was being childish but at least he wasn't putting someone's career or life in danger.
posted by tron7 at 08:22 PM on July 12, 2009
would that fight be considered a good one?
Definitely not. Despite the hype and the number of ppv buys the show probably got, the fights didn't work out so good. Henderson Bisping had an unsightly end, Alves, as Weedy says, crushed people to earn the right to have his ass handed to him for five rounds by GSP and then the Lesnar - Mir rematch was one-sided.
If you want a better view you could do worse than hunt down the three fights between Matt Hughes and Georges St. Pierre - you'll see a mix of striking, wrestling and submission moves in fights with some narrative to them.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 08:03 AM on July 13, 2009
I have never really watched any MMA, but caught the Lesnar-Mir one on YouTube. Are the fights always as boring as the one last night
Depends on your definition of boring. Considering you admitted to "never really" watching MMA, you probably don't see the martial artistry of these gladiators that most MMA fans do. This was a fight that many people wanted to see since Mir did in fact make Lesnar tap out in his very first UFC fight that many felt Lesnar was decisively winning before his rookie error.
People speak about Lesnars post-fight comments (which he has apologized for) but what many people missed was that Mir was the one that was doing all the pre-fight trash talk, disrespecting Lesnar and his trainers every chance he could, all because of Lesnar's pro wrestling background. Lesnar knows what it takes to be a showman and how to play the heel from his time in the WWE and plays the part very well. Would it have mattered if Lesnar was a former NFL player? Lesnar is a former NCAA champion which is an accomplishment all on it's own. He left the world of pro wrestling behind so that he could try other things in life. He tried out for the NFL and when that didn't pan out, he tried his hand in MMA. To have a guy this massive, powerful and quick, I don't see anyone that can really give Lesnar a run for his money. He has already avenged his only loss, he's the undisputed UFC heavyweight champ and after his domination over Frank Mir, I have to wonder just who's next?
posted by BornIcon at 08:32 AM on July 13, 2009
Seeing Mir humbled was a beautiful thing. I mean it's one thing to hype a fight and play it up, but Mir was spiteful, rude, arrogant and just utterly disrespectful. Lesnar didn't do it back. Mir is a cocky, arrogant little shit and it was awesome to see him valiantly stopping Lesnar's fists by putting his face in front of them.
As for those bitching about Lesnar's behaviour... You are such marks. The Coors Light comment will piss Bud off, sure, but they realise how much money can be made off this, and Lesnar is playing the ultimate heel. MMA fans fucking hate him, and both him and Dana are playing that up. Yes, Dana was pissed at Brock, but Dana knows that people are going to pay and pay and pay to see Brock hopefully take a beating, and given his performance last night, it's going to be a LONG time before Lesnar is beaten and all those who hate him will fork out $45 a fight to see it happen and both Brock and Dana will become very rich.
Anyone who bitches about Lesnar is a fucking hypocrite since EVERYONE plays a role in UFC and it's identical to pro-wrestling in almost every respect except the fights aren't pre-determined.
And really, to say you're "ashamed"... WTF? You want to be ashamed? How about Henderson deliberately punching Bisping when he KNEW he was out cold? That is a THOUSAND times more reprehensible than anything Lesnar did. I mean yes, it was awesome to see Bisping go down (and again, the man is a dick, but he was playing the heel... (OH NOES! YOU GOT YOUR WRESTLING IN MY MMA!)) But that was FAR more damaging than anything Lesnar said or did. Shit like that is what leads to permanent injury, disability or worse.
I've watched UFC off and on since UFC 5. I really don't see why folk have their panties in a bunch over what was a fantastic promo that will lead to HUGE bank down the line. The sport is about making people want to see fights. Did Lesnar's comments make people want to see him take a beating?
As I said, marks...
posted by Drood at 02:41 PM on July 13, 2009
I really don't see why folk have their panties in a bunch over what was a fantastic promo that will lead to HUGE bank down the line.
I'm not the target market here -- I don't watch boxing or MMA because they're too brutal -- but I think the UFC is right to fear the WWF-ization of their sport. If Joe Casual Sports Fan thinks MMA is as fake as pro wrestling, that would hurt a sport that's managed to move up to the big time without resorting to any of that stuff.
posted by rcade at 04:35 PM on July 13, 2009
I think Brock's post-fight reaction is a lot less troubling to the UFC than the utter lack of competition in the heavyweight division. Couture and Noguiera fight shortly, but neither is on the upslope of their career, (especially Couture, at 46), so all of the focus moves onto Cain Velasquez if he can get past Shane Carwin, but that fight isn't happening until October.
I understand the UFC are planning to throw a ton of money at Emelianenko when his Afflication contract ends, but he'll need a couple of fights, at least, to acclimatise to the cage and there's no guarantee he'll make the transition - Mirko Cro Cop had a successful ring career but looked a shadow of himself in the cage.
This leaves Lesnar without serious opposition for months and if he beats Velasquez and Emelianenko either doesn't come over to UFC or disappoints in the cage, then division is pretty much dead. I can't see many ppv buys for Lesnar-Mir III or Lesnar - Kongo.
The Welterweight division has similar issues, because GSP has taken everyone of note, but at least a Welterweight can move up, (reticent as GSP may be to do so) - there's no higher division for Lesnar to move to and there's no way he's moving down to light heavy.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 05:57 PM on July 13, 2009
I enjoy the UFC but I do think they get dangerously close with all their hype to the WWE. The fact that every fighter has a nickname before his first fight and they seem to be creating artificial bad blood at every opportunity does little to enhance their respectability as a sport.
Also the fact that a guy like Lesnar can become heavy weight champ with such limited experience is also a slap in the face to some of the really skilled athletes in the sport. No doubt Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machita are technically fantastic fighters, but something about the sport also allows raw strength, tenacity, and toughness to prevail at times. Something I always said about street fighting and martial art was, in the end the toughest guy usually wins. It just goes to show that when there are few rules, fighting is not like a Bruce Lee movie. Sometimes size, strength, and a bad attitude can prevail over black belts. Those movies with the chinese old master kicking everyones ass are just silly movies. Brock Lesnar with a few months of training is the best heavyweigth fighter? For the credibility of martial arts, this dude needs to be soundly beat.
As for the Henderson fight, I am surprised at the reaction to his knockout. Bisbing disrespected him, was cocky and basically an ass leading up to the fight. Henderson did little talking and just said he would take it out on Bisbing during the fight. Regardless of whether or not Bisbing was out when the last blow came, I am not aware of any fighter that stops punching before the referee officially ends the contest. It is part of the sport to keep punching regardless of the opponents condition. It is the job of the referee to protect an injured or helpless fighter not the opponent. Maybe Bisbing should not have bragged that he had never been stopped or hurt. That kind of talk always bites you in the ass.
posted by Atheist at 06:14 PM on July 13, 2009
I agree with Athiest on the bisping knockout. I realize it was probably unnecessary, but you can't expect a fighter to be able to go nuts and in a milli-second just stop. Its just not gonna happen, and this happens all of the time. Look when Rampage knocked out Wanderlei, he hit him about 2 or 3 times after he was out cold and I can't remember it being discussed. Its just part of MMA and will be a part of it. I'm not saying it wasn't brutal, i'm just saying it probably can't be controlled. The ref doesn't have enough time to beat a fighter to an unconscious(spell?) fighter.
What can be controlled is post fight, rubbing it into your beaten opponents face like Lesnar did. To tell you the truth, i like lesnar, not so much now, but i like seeing dominance in the cage. I just don't think there is room for that kind of shit. I've been defending MMA before his post fight antics by saying MMA has stayed away from that kind of crap. You can kind of tell by reading comments in here that, naturally, the Lesnar fans back his trash talking. But you can still be a fan and still disagree with him acting that way. Yes, Mir was a punk the months leading up to the fight, you just don't want to see a guy who stumbles when trying to get up and having this guy yelling in your face. I understand he was wound up after avenging his only loss in his short career, but i'm sure he could have respected the sport, his fans, Dana and his wife a little more.
Brock Lesnar with a few months of training is the best heavyweigth fighter? For the credibility of martial arts, this dude needs to be soundly beat.
I'm not sure if you consider wrestling a form of martial arts, athiest, but lesnar was a NCAA champ and has years of wrestling experience and he also has years of mixed martial arts training. He just has the size and strength to handle pretty much anyone right now. I believed he had a really good game plan going into the fight. It might not have been the funnest to watch but it was effective because of his size. He has showed in the UFC he can stand up with anyone and beat them on the ground. Don't forget he dropped Mir, Herring, and legendary Couture with a single punch.
posted by sgtcookzane at 10:00 PM on July 13, 2009
Thing is, Lesnar WAS respectful to Couture. If Mir hadn't run his mouth like the arrogant prick he is, I think Lesnar wouldn't have been so pissed. I like what Lance Storm (former pro wrestler who knows Brock) had to say.
http://www.stormwrestling.com/071209.html
All this defending Mir saying it was to sell the fight etc... Horseshit. If that's so, why has the douche started running his mouth again already? His smashed up face hasn't even healed and he's already bad mouthing Lesnar to the media. Clearly Mir likes pain.
As for his post fight stuff, once again, it's bank and anyone who thinks otherwise is a mark. Anyone who thinks Lesnar is damaging MMA with that stuff is nuts. The more fans he angers, the more people are going to pay to see him take a beating. But dear god, who can honestly stop him? I mean he destroyed Mir. Yes, Lesnar may not know the 37 different submission moves you know, Frank, but he doesn't need to when he can overpower you, sit on you and then beat the shit out of you.
Both Bisping and Mir learned valuable lessons I think. Though I gotta give Bisping credit in the Countdown show, after saying Henderson wouldn't KO him said words to the effect of "I've set myself up for something bad now haven't I?"
And given the shit Rena has pulled in her life in WWF/E etc... Do you honestly think she gives a shit that Brock said he was going to fuck her? Would have been funnier if he said he was going to climb on top of Mir's wife.:)
Whatever, UFC 100 was awesome. Belcher was robbed (though from polls I'm in the minority with that thought), Bisping getting KO'ed was great. The GSP fight was amazing, and then Lesnar smashing that smirk off that arrogant turds face was the cherry on top.
Is it wrong I want to see GSP face Lesnar?:)
posted by Drood at 02:59 AM on July 14, 2009
Anyone who thinks Lesnar is damaging MMA with that stuff is nuts. The more fans he angers, the more people are going to pay to see him take a beating.
Only if they think it's real. Pro wrestling is idiotic -- it's bad reality TV in tights. Lesnar's getting attention here because it was unexpected. He couldn't flip the crowd off every time out. He'd have to do more and more provocative things.
And given the shit Rena has pulled in her life in WWF/E etc... Do you honestly think she gives a shit that Brock said he was going to fuck her? Would have been funnier if he said he was going to climb on top of Mir's wife.:)
This makes my point. You're making judgments about what someone did in pro wrestling as if it was real. She was an actor, dude. You might as well ask if Luke gives a shit what Laura did on General Hospital.
The big thing MMA has going for it right now is the fact that people don't trust boxing any more. When it loses trust, it fizzles like a fad.
posted by rcade at 10:15 AM on July 14, 2009
Thing is, Lesnar WAS respectful to Couture. If Mir hadn't run his mouth like the arrogant prick he is, I think Lesnar wouldn't have been so pissed
Exactly! Mir was 10 times more disrespectful towards Lesnar and his camp. What made Lesnar look bad was flipping off the fans after his dominating performance because they were booing him. Now I can understand him playing the heel persona considering that the PPV was in Mir's hometown of Vegas but he needs to remember that he is now a representitive of the UFC and he has to conduct himself in a professional matter regardless if his opponent is acting like a douchebag or not.
Only if they think it's real. Pro wrestling is idiotic -- it's bad reality TV in tights.
Don't knock pro wrestling just because your not a fan, it does have it's fanbase who are more loyal to wrestling than just about any real sport out there. The finishes may be scripted but let's be honest, these people are in fact athletes that are doing a job which is to entertain people and performing at a high level.
posted by BornIcon at 11:15 AM on July 14, 2009
Anyone who thinks Lesnar is damaging MMA with that stuff is nuts. The more fans he angers, the more people are going to pay to see him take a beating.
I don't think it's damaging the promotion and it's money making ability. I do think it's cheapening the sport and making it more difficult for sports fans(as opposed to casual or pro wrestling fans) to be interested in MMA. Ideally, I would like it marketed more like a sport than a pro wrestling promotion.
posted by tron7 at 11:53 PM on July 14, 2009
I added the link about Lesnar's behavior after the fight. I don't watch MMA, but that clip is hilarious.