11/05/24
November 17, 2008
Lesnar proves size does matter: Despite it coming just weeks after Bernard Hopkins proved that a 45-year-old combat athlete doesn't have to turn into primordial paste in the ring, returning UFC champion Randy Couture -- as much an MMA institution as the cage itself -- failed in his attempt to write yet another storybook epilogue to a peerless career.
Ridiculous article.
a) Chuck Liddell, a light heavy was able to knock out RC twice with more ease than Lesnar did.
b) Lesnar is a pretty good athlete in his own right ... despite his size.
c) Pavlik has major technique issues as did the champion he took the title from. Hopkins merely exposed this. All of the great trainers have either died or (the 2 or 3) remaining knowledgeable trainers are now very much up in years and no longer want to have anything to do the sport and its promoters (a situation existing since the DK days) and have long ago retired.
d) History proves that the best big man fighting weights range between 185 and 210. The same weight dynamic exists for Decathlons as well.
e) With Pro Wrestling's Ken Shamrock's return to MMA and now Lesnar's entry there is a big creditability issue with the legitimacy of their fights. There is a strong possibility their fights are "works" indeed.
posted by Plaintruth at 03:18 PM on November 17, 2008
Don't talk such utter bollocks. Do you honestly think Dana White would fix a fight after he railed against that very subject after the EliteXC/Kimbo shenanigans, an issue which contributed significantly to the death of the company?
Don't be fucking ridiculous. That doesn't even begin to cover the crippling legal ramifications of UFC working a fight. The athletic commission would fuck them up for starters. There would also, at the very last, be class action lawsuits from bookies across the country. I mean really, do you people even stop to THINK about what you're saying? You sound like the typically bitter MMA fan who is pissed off because the interloper came in and won.
Fuck off back to Sherdog. You'll fit right in.
posted by Drood at 05:15 PM on November 17, 2008
To bad it could be a while before we see Lesnar-Fydor, or anyone UFC signed to UFC-Fydor.
posted by jmd82 at 11:25 PM on November 17, 2008
With Pro Wrestling's Ken Shamrock's return to MMA and now Lesnar's entry there is a big creditability issue with the legitimacy of their fights. There is a strong possibility their fights are "works" indeed
Oh stop it! The sport of MMA is not like the WWE where the finish is scripted. Couture got his ass handed to him by the bigger, stronger and younger Brock Lesnar. There isn't any conspiracy theories regardless what you may think.
Quick question, did you even actually watch the match? If you did, then you would not be making such ridiculous accusations. Drood hit the nail right on the head with his post because after the fiasco with EliteXC, Dana White made it a point to denounce fixing fights in MMA. The whole point of MMA was to pit two fighters together, regardless whether they practiced the same fighting style or not and see who the better fighter was, bottom line.
Don't get me wrong, I love the WWE since it's very entertaining and the athletes there are absolutely amazing but the UFC is a whole different animal which is why Lesnar decided to go that route after leaving the WWE and finishing up his pro wrestling career in Japan versus 1996 Olympic gold medalist, Kurt Angle. Lesnar has left the world of pro wrestling behind him and is now the champ of true hand to hand competition. His past relationship with the WWE should not affect how well he does in MMA since his time with the WWE was just a job, let it go.
My point is, don't be making some absurd accusations about something you obviously don't have facts to back up. That's just your opinion.
posted by BornIcon at 07:37 AM on November 18, 2008
By the way, Ken Shamrock may have started his career as a pro wreslter but he actually spent little time in pro wrestling while most of his career consisted of being a mixed martial artist. Shamrock is a UFC legend considering he was one of the original fighters from the early years of UFC and the very first UFC Superfight champion which was made into the UFC Heavyweight championship title.
posted by BornIcon at 07:55 AM on November 18, 2008
Drood, jmd82 and BornIcon ... Dana White's lemmings ... how sad ... yet so funny!
Keep believing what you'd like kids ... no actual harm done.
Plain Truth = PT Barnum
posted by Plaintruth at 02:19 PM on November 18, 2008
I don't follow MMA much, but I can say that I am quite familiar with Brock Lesnar. Not so much from the WWE, but from when he was an NCAA champion heavyweight wrestler at the University of Minnesota. The guy is just a freak of nature, plain and simple.
Using Lesnar's former WWE ties as evidence that the match was fixed is silly. He won because he's a better fighter (or at least was on Saturday) and manages to be huge and still extremely agile, a combination that few others can pull off.
posted by TheQatarian at 03:36 PM on November 18, 2008
Wow - let's see, 40 something old man (once great fighter) looses a tough MMA match to a NCAA Wrestling Champion who is 60 + pounds bigger, and much younger. Why would anybody be surprised or call this a fix? It actually makes perfect sense.
Sure Randy has surprised a lot of experts with his skill, heart and experience but this fight's outcome is no surprise and it's not like Couture hasn't been beaten on many occaisions by both larger and smaller fighters. If anything it proves that on his best day RC is as good as anybody and on an off day he can be beat, as Chuck Liddel proved quite easily at 205 lbs.
Although I was surprised by Lesner's victory, he has proven himself to be a fantastic athlete. Big, strong, and very quick for his size, an NCAA Wrestling Champ, WWE entertainer, almost made the NFL Minnesota Vikings, and now after 4 MMA professional fights, UFC Heavyweight Champion. Should not even be mentioned in the same thread as Kimbo Slice. HMMM now there is an interesting match up.
posted by Atheist at 06:29 PM on November 18, 2008
PT = Persistent Troll
posted by tahoemoj at 11:15 PM on November 18, 2008
PT = Petty Thoughts and Pretty Tiresome
You don't have to believe that this was a legitimate fight but if all you have is your opinion to base that on, then you are absolutely ridiculous. Get some actual facts to back up your theory, then we can talk.
One more:
PT = Periodic Table(?)
posted by BornIcon at 08:20 AM on November 19, 2008
You don't have to believe that this was a legitimate fight but if all you have is your opinion to base that on, then you are absolutely ridiculous.
Because God knows, you've never done that before.
You sound like the typically bitter MMA fan who is pissed off because the interloper came in and won...Fuck off back to Sherdog. You'll fit right in.
If his post makes him sound like a bitter, pissed off fan, what the hell does your post make you sound like? Resorting to personal attacks because somebody said something you didn't like about your favorite sport? Well, sure, that's rational.
Anything can be fixed. Anything. Especially, but not limited to, the combat sports. They've been filled with cheats and liars for generations. If you don't think the fix can be in on any given sport, you're incredibly naive.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:36 AM on November 19, 2008
TBH, do you have any proof whatsoever that there's been any sort of a fixed fight since Dana White has taken over the UFC? I would love for you to show me where that's happened.
Why do you feel the need to step in and speak for someone else? Can't they speak for themselves? Can't they fight their own verbal war?
Sounds like the fix is on here. Say it ain't so.
posted by BornIcon at 11:12 AM on November 19, 2008
Hello The_Black_Hand, Thanks for the rationality dosage.
Hello BornIcon (presumptious ID?), You know, I kind of like the elementality of Periodic Table. What's going on with your Dana White loyalty obsession? Are you a member of his family, a lover, a friend, other ...? Dana White's a businessman/promoter forged in the boxing game for years, where he toiled unsuccessfully aspiring to be a Don King Bob Arum figure. His lack of success there didn't mean he wasn't a smart cookie. He is a smart cookie. His timing sucked as the pie shrunk dramatically every year since the 1970's British Medical Board's conclusive findings resulted in their coining the term "Pugilistica Dementia" ... which in turn resulted in Universities/Colleges dropping their NCAA boxing teams' programs; resulted in a mass exodus from and a subsequent lack of entry by gifted athletes into the boxing sport, etc. All of which shrunk the pie, first creating a lack of viable economics for sustaining boxing gyms and more importantly an economic implosion so severe it interrupted the generational passing of essential knowledges to the usual newer re-generativer wave of trainers by the great gate-keepers, such as Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, Charlie Goldman, etc, etc. Boxing is the only major sport to have gone backwards maximally so over the last thirty years. In fact, all other major sports have made terrific advancements over the same period instead.
Dana White was just in the wrong place at the wrong time ... until the MMA opportunity came about. He wisely sought others' capitalization moneys, held on and the rest is history. However, make no mistake about it ... he is a promotor with his self interest far out in front of his every effort. Its a Promotor thing, not a Dana White thing.
Believe it ... if an MMA "work" will be more lucrative than a contest, now or down the road, then ... Amen.
Its as simple as that.
As The_Black_Hand alluded, this is major easy compared to arranging ML Baseball and College Basketball shaved points, which although much more difficult are ... also definitely doable.
posted by Plaintruth at 02:30 PM on November 19, 2008
Hello BornIcon (presumptious ID?),
presumptious is not a word. Perhaps you meant presumptuous.
To allege sanctimoniousness regarding someones ID, when representing oneself as Plaintruth is humourous at the least, and hypocritical at its height.
*A few words of advice: don't use big words you don't know how to spell.
posted by tommybiden at 05:14 PM on November 19, 2008
Wait - did it look fixed to you? I mean, we can talk about the possibility 'till the cows explode (as goes the old saying), but a lot of fixed fights, look, well, fixed.
I don't recall watching that and thinking anything of the sort. And I've watched all of these things. There doesn't appear to be a need in the UFC to fix fights. The Fighters already don't take a huge purse compared to the UFC's take. It's something like $800,000 vs. $50+million. It's working.
(That Ulimate Fighter show is a stroke of genius. It could have easily not worked.)
I'll admit that they obviously over-hype some of their talent. They're not as deep in some divisions as they claim to be. But you can't deny that the cream rises to the top, at least in their own narrowed universe.
Aren't you gonna watch Penn vs. St. Pierre? That's a great matchup. Lesnar isn''t the real deal vy the standards of a Fedor or whomever - but he's not the only game going in the UFC. He's the flavour of the week. We'll see how long it lasts.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:22 PM on November 19, 2008
As much as I was interested in seeing what was up with Lesnar, I'm looking forward to 92 more than I was 91.
Griffin-Evans and Jackson-Silva have a lot of promise and then there's Nogueira-Mir, with the winner to take on Lesnar, which means we could see a Lesnar-Mir rematch.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 08:34 PM on November 19, 2008
BI, I wasn't speaking for anybody else. I speak for me when I say that you telling somebody else that their point is invalid because it's just their opinion is the height of hypocrisy on your part. Most of what you type on this site is unfounded opinion.
Of course, that's your right; after all, Sportsfilter is a sports message board, rife with opinions, insults, and bias. Just don't call somebody else out for behavior you exhibit all the time yourself.
As for the fix, I don't know that the Lesnar - Couture match "looked fixed;" I was speaking to the possibility of a fix. With all the crooked shit that goes on in the combat sports today, the possibility is always real. And, while you may see Dana White as a paragon of athletic and management purity and integrity, I don't know that I'm ready to trust his organization yet.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 11:49 AM on November 21, 2008
d) History proves that the best big man fighting weights range between 185 and 210. The same weight dynamic exists for Decathlons as well.
Which history is this? The one where the Japanese refused to have weight divisions in Judo until Anton wiped the floor with them?
posted by rodgerd at 09:59 PM on November 23, 2008
I speak for me when I say that you telling somebody else that their point is invalid because it's just their opinion is the height of hypocrisy on your part. Most of what you type on this site is unfounded opinion
Unfounded opinion? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news to you but my opinions are mostly based on facts. If someone wants to share their honest opinion on a subject, by all means do so. Except that opinion was shortsighted and based on assumptions that because the new UFC champion used to be a WWE wrestler, the fight between Lesnar and Couture was somehow scripted.
You feel the need to step in and speak for someone else just because you agree with that person's opinion? Com'on man, be for real!
As for the fix, I don't know that the Lesnar - Couture match "looked fixed;" I was speaking to the possibility of a fix
And you agreeing with the individual that claimed that the fight was indeed fixed, not the possibility of it being fixed, puts you in the same boat as the person making that statement.
And, while you may see Dana White as a paragon of athletic and management purity and integrity, I don't know that I'm ready to trust his organization yet
And that's your right to feel that way but unless you can honestly say without a shadow of doubt that the UFC fixes fights, you really don't know just like I don't know if the fights are legit or not but like any other sport, unless something comes up to prove otherwise, I'll just sit back and be entertained with what I'm viewing.
posted by BornIcon at 09:26 AM on November 27, 2008
I really really thought Couture would win quite easily. This potentially puts the lie to the claim that size means nothing in MMA fighting. Couture wasn't ever able to mount any kind of offense against Lesnar. He looked so small next to him! I quess all that's really left is for him to fight Fyodor Emelianenko.
Kenny Florian was impressive as usual, all he ever does is win and win some more.