04/20/24
August 24, 2005
The AL Cy Young will be a tough one. Rivera and Nathan are two that should be considered.... Dont look now, but Johan Santana may have a say on who gets the Cy Young.
posted by daddisamm at 06:02 AM on August 24, 2005
Sportswriter of the Year: someone besides Ken Rosenthal.
posted by yerfatma at 06:04 AM on August 24, 2005
Rodriguez is a quality defender who has settled down at third base after early struggles. Are you kidding me??? He's standing in the shoes of Craig Nettles, and it's a poor fit. "God damn it, Dorn, get down on the ball, don't gimme this ole shit!"
posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:35 AM on August 24, 2005
Rosenthal is surely a "one of a kind"
posted by daddisamm at 06:54 AM on August 24, 2005
l_b_b, have you actually been watching the games? he had some struggles early on, but has been rock solid ever since.
posted by goddam at 07:13 AM on August 24, 2005
A Rod, to me, is a lock for MVP. I love to watch him play. I have seen his defence, at times be a little "shakey".
posted by daddisamm at 07:24 AM on August 24, 2005
goddam, I actually can't get most of the games, for reasons that I won't go into or I'd have to murder some mercenary corporate suck in the Yankees organization. I've seen Rodriguez wave at a lot of balls that Nettles would have fielded. I'm sure he's improved lately, but he's got a long way to go before he's more than a jock-washer compared to Nettles. (yeah, I know, it was about the MVP for this season, and based on that he might qualify, but still...)
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:29 AM on August 24, 2005
Not to change the subject-but I am looking for a good Potato Salad recipe...... ;-)
posted by daddisamm at 07:51 AM on August 24, 2005
There shouldn't be an MVP from either Boston or New York - those players benefit from having so many good bats around them that I find it impossible to name one of them the most valuable player in the league. The Yankees have 3 guys who have pretty much already driven in 100 runs - how the hell can you give them an MVP? Shouldn't they take votes away from each other? AL Cy Young - goddamn it, this was Roy Halladay's right up until the moment when Kevin Mench stepped to the plate and managed to hit one right on the screws and break his leg. I really liked watching Halladay pitch. Right now I'd give serious consideration to awarding it to Rivera. And Johan Santana is miles away from winning the Cy Young. Miles. Though he's had a great last month and a half. Just too little, too late - he was mediocre for half a year. My AL MVP would have to be Vlad. He's carried that team. In the NL it's a piece of cake: Andruw Jones - unless Pujols or Lee wins the triple crown (which they won't).
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:11 AM on August 24, 2005
i don't think Rosenthal or anyone here is comparing him to Nettles. just because he plays 3rd base for the yankees doesn't mean he has to fill the shoes of a man that retired nearly 20 years ago. Rosenthal is just using defensive ability to tip the scale toward A-Rod over Manny. daddisamm, the entire yankee defence can be a little "shakey" at times :-)
posted by goddam at 08:15 AM on August 24, 2005
goddam, I know. I understand the logic behind, if you're gonna give somebody a MVP, might as well give it to this guy. I just don't think he's all that valuable.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:30 AM on August 24, 2005
And Johan Santana is miles away from winning the Cy Young. Miles. Though he's had a great last month and a half. Just too little, too late - he was mediocre for half a year. mediorce??? Well I would beg to differ. If he was getting the run support he had last year, he would be at 20 wins already.....Being a good pitcher is more than just putting up wins--aka The Rocket this year. Take a hard look at Johan's stats-- That said, Johan has to run the table to be able to win the award again. I personally think JOe Nathan is a good candidate for the award. Then again I am a really big homer when it comes to the Twins! lol It should be interesting
posted by daddisamm at 08:49 AM on August 24, 2005
If Halleday were healthy-the Cy Young would be his--hands down.
posted by daddisamm at 08:51 AM on August 24, 2005
How do you suppose that Daddisam?
posted by jerseygirl at 08:57 AM on August 24, 2005
Well, Weedy, I'm glad since the Yankees shouldn't be "allowed" to win an MVP you'd give consideration to Rivera for Cy Young. As for A-Rod, does anyone posting ever stop to consider the difficulty in moving from shortstop to third base the way he did? He goes from MVP in Texas and one of the best shortstops in league history to having to switch in spring training, on the fly, and then move right into the biggest frying pan in sport, which is NYC. Oh yeah, and while you're getting your feet wet at third, don't forget to hit .300 and drive in 120! The guy's been a fantastic performer and team player, unlike some of today's athletes should they have been asked to switch positions. Imagine the best pro football player going to a new team and automatically accepting to switch positions!! I love the Yankees, and I always liked Nettles a lot, but if you are going to compare Nettles' glove to A-Rod's, then be fair and also compare their bats. Nettles could hit the ball, but not anything comparable to A-Rod. I don't care how much money A-Rod pulls in, he's a class act. This concludes my A-Rod lovefest for today.
posted by dyams at 09:08 AM on August 24, 2005
He was having a wonderful season-He was pretty much walking away with. Thats just my humble opinion. I am assuming you were refering to Halleday...
posted by daddisamm at 09:09 AM on August 24, 2005
Hmm, Santana was #1 by a long chalk in 2004 Win Shares for AL Pitchers. This year he's 7th. Joe Nathan, dangled in trade talks by the Twins, does not appear in this year's top 100.
posted by yerfatma at 09:11 AM on August 24, 2005
What does win shares got to do with anything--explain please
posted by daddisamm at 09:22 AM on August 24, 2005
Nathan wasn't dangled in trade talks.
posted by daddisamm at 09:22 AM on August 24, 2005
Are you kidding me??? He's standing in the shoes of Craig Nettles, and it's a poor fit. Graig Nettles
posted by evil empire at 09:39 AM on August 24, 2005
daddisamm: What does win shares got to do with anything--explain please Taken from the top of the page yerfatma linked to:
You can read some background information about Win Shares in this article and this article. And you can read more about how THT calculates and presents its Win Shares by clicking here.Your answer was litteraly one click away. I'm okay with discussing Santana's chances for the Cy Young this year, but Nathan should not even be mentioned. Your homerism is showing, there. :-) I like that Buerhle is on top of the Win Shares list. So far, he's the most deserving AL Cy Young candidate in my mind. I still think that Halladay would have a chance if he came back right now, and could pull 3-4 wins before the season ends. But that's not gonna happen. And maybe I'm partial because he has pulled my fantasy team this year (and because he's up against Clemens), but I would really love Chris Carpenter to get the NL Cy Young.
posted by qbert72 at 09:51 AM on August 24, 2005
Joe Nathan, dangled in trade talks by the Twins, does not appear in this year's top 100. Actually, the table you linked to only contains starting pitchers. Joe Nathan is 3rd among closers, with 11 Win Shares. He still has Huston Street ahead of him, though. Maybe Street is Cy Young material after all? How about Todd Jones for Cy Young? I blame Éric Gagné for this closer madness. IMHO, closers are a dime a dozen, and shouldn't even be considered for Cy Young awards.
posted by qbert72 at 10:05 AM on August 24, 2005
qbert72--I read the links before I asked for an explination of win shares. I had a good idea of what they were before hand. I just wanted an expalnation of his point.
posted by daddisamm at 10:21 AM on August 24, 2005
If you go by Win shares and you are considering Rivera for Cy Young, then Nathan could very well be in the conversation as well.
posted by daddisamm at 10:25 AM on August 24, 2005
Yeah, well I noticed that Kenny Rogers was above Santana for win shares and I sure as hell wouldn't trade Santana for Rogers at this point in the season either.
posted by chris2sy at 10:35 AM on August 24, 2005
I blame Éric Gagné for this closer madness. IMHO, closers are a dime a dozen, and shouldn't even be considered for Cy Young awards. I don't get your point here , theres been 9 closers to win the Cy Young dating back to '74. Eckersley's numbers are comparable to Gagne when he won back in '92 . Why blame Gagne ?
posted by evil empire at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2005
Oof. Joe Nathan != Joe Mays. I was overwhelmed by the Homerism, but mainly due to my own mistake. Win Shares is a good way of looking at a player's contribution to the team's performance, mainly because it's one of the few stats that attempts to remove effects of team performance from player rankings (contrast to RBI where you could theoretically hit 1.000 for a bad team and not get any RBIs-- other than home runs-- while hitting .250 for the Red Sox might get you 80 (though Kevin Millar is doing his best to avoid that)).
posted by yerfatma at 10:43 AM on August 24, 2005
evil empire, my point is a very common one. Closers pitch between 40 to 60 innings per year. Even if all those innings were perfect (which could describe Gagné's Cy Young year), they would not be as much a contribution to team success as 250 quality innings from, say, Jon Garland. Also, people tend to forget that Gagné needed a virtually perfect year to win the Cy Young. That's the only case when you could consider a closer for Cy Young. No closer is having this kind of year in 2005.
posted by qbert72 at 11:06 AM on August 24, 2005
If you go by Win shares and you are considering Rivera for Cy Young, then Nathan could very well be in the conversation as well. Actually, limiting ourselves to Win Shares, we can see that Rivera and Nathan are in the same class as Cy Young contenders Gustavo Chacin, Bronson Arroyo and Bruce Chen. Oh, and I believe my previous comments make it clear that I don't consider Rivera for Cy Young.
posted by qbert72 at 11:12 AM on August 24, 2005
Weedy -- not sure I see how A. Jones could be such a slam dunk for the NL MVP. Based on the Win Shares stats linked above, Lee and Pujols are first and second in NL WS, respectively, while Jones is 24th. Considering that Pujols has really been the only non-injured, consistent offensive threat on the team with the best record in baseball, I would think he has to be the front-runner.
posted by holden at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2005
In my book, as of right now, Buehrle is the Cy Young, but Santana is definitely not out of the race, considering how poorly the Sox have been playing and how dominant Santana has been after the all-star break for the past 3 years (27-2 in 248 IPs with a 1.96 ERA). Rivera and Nathan don't belong in this conversation. A.*
posted by AaronGNP at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2005
Thanks for your explnation Yerfatma-No matter how hard I try I get a little confused by the whole win share concept. It sure is and interesting discussion. It will be interesing to see who gets the awards, After Halleday went down, I thought of Buerhle and how I think he has been building for a Cy Young for some time now. The last couple of years. However if he stuggles down the stretch, thats going to leave the window open for somebody!
posted by daddisamm at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2005
Weedy -- not sure I see how A. Jones could be such a slam dunk for the NL MVP. I disagree with this because Jones has been much more valuable to his team than either of those admittedly great players. He picked them up and carried them on his back to the division lead again this year with all the injuries (C. Jones, Estrada, M. Giles) and the nonexistent help from such names as Raul Mondesi and Brian Jordan. Nice to see Francoeur's name being bandied about for ROY (I still wish he'd take a damn walk from time to time) and Zach Duke has been amazing for the Pirates. That's a tough call.
posted by trox at 12:06 PM on August 24, 2005
I'm not sure about Francoeur or Duke for Rookie of the Year. They're playing great, but it's not the first time call-ups have a hot start, and the season will end before the laws of average kick in for them. I'd prefer a guy who has been consistent all season, Taveras for example, but I'm not sold on anyone yet.
posted by qbert72 at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2005
Hey - I like win shares as much as the next guy, but not everyone looks at them as the arbitor that prevents any discussion. It comes down to the (albeit slightly asinine) conclusions reached by voters who play the "well if you took one of the contenders off the team, which team would be the worst off", game. Atlanta is the surprise team in baseball, have put 7 rookies in their line-up on a regular basis - and Andruw Jones has simply carried that inexperienced offence. Pujols is the better player, but St. Louis has some other weapons. Personally, I think it should be Pujols - but I think it's going to be Jones. I'm not a huge fan of closers winning Cy Youngs, but in the AL there really isn't a pitcher having a great year (save Halladay who was leading the AL in innings, shoutouts, OBA, complete games, ERA and third in strikeouts, second in wins when he went down). Buerhle has been the best starting pitcher besides that buy may finish only with 17-18 wins and an ERA over 3. Same goes for Santana. Tough to award it to a starter with those kind of numbers. Rivera's numbers are very good and it just seems like a reliever's year. (I know, wins - some of you think is a dumb stat for pitchers, but.... I totally disagree. Wins are important- just not the only thing). It's Carpenter or Clemens in the NL - I give it to Carpenter because he just throws more. Clemens has almost become the first six inning specialist in baseball history. Plus, his entire case is riding on that ERA staying below 2. Too much of a tightrope.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:39 PM on August 24, 2005
I only brought win shares into it as a way to examine daddisamm's claim about Santana's equivalence across 2004-2005.
posted by yerfatma at 03:02 PM on August 24, 2005
I'm not sure why A-rod is being compared to GRAIG Nettles other than they both played 3rd base for the Yankees but stat wise I'd want A-rod . Nettles had a great glove but lifetime he committed 13.4 errors / season , so far A-rod has had 13 in his first year at third and 10 this season . Looks like a wash there . Batting stats , is clearly in A-rod's favor . Nettles was a career .248 hitter w/ 390 hr's in 22 years ... A-rod is a career .306 hitter w/417 hr's in 12 seasons . He may not make sparkling plays at third but who has since Nettles ? Does this mean no Yankee third baseman can ever win MVP without playing with comparable skills of Nettles ? So now how about comparing Manny to ..... Ted Williams , I mean both have played outfield for Boston , right ?
posted by evil empire at 03:46 PM on August 24, 2005
Errors/ year isn't very helpful since it doesn't adjust for a player's range. I promise you I could field 1.000 at any OF position simply by not running (aka "Bernie Williams: The Later Years"). A-Rod is a heck of a defender and he brings a lot of offense to the plate. As opposed to a bat filled with Superballs©.
posted by yerfatma at 04:01 PM on August 24, 2005
(aka "Bernie Williams: The Later Years") I'm a member of the Bernie Williams should retire club. Call it a career before you embarrass yourself anymore . Not much risk of getting injured seeing how he doesn't bust his ass like he used to .
posted by evil empire at 04:18 PM on August 24, 2005
Weedy -- I agree that just pointing to Win Shares is a silly way of determining an MVP. But I do think that because there has been a ton of press regarding the Braves getting it done with rookies due to injuries that it has been overlooked that the Cardinals have had a ton of injuries too and Pujols has really been the only consistent big-time performer on the team. Four opening day starters (Larry Walker, Reggie Sanders, Scott Rolen and Yadier Molina) have spent significant amounts of time on the DL, Jim Edmonds is having an off year (or really is just going through the inevitable decline of a guy getting up there in years) and the Cards' batting line-up after the All-Star Break for many games was just ugly. But it's not as sexy as all the rookies in Atlanta (the Cards have mostly done it with AAA lifers and utility players having career years), so you just don't hear about it as much. (Although this is all negated somewhat because if you take Pujols out, the Cards actually would still be quite good because of their pitching.)
posted by holden at 04:37 PM on August 24, 2005
Andruw Jones has simply carried that inexperienced offence. Pujols is the better player, but St. Louis has some other weapons Rolen only got in 196 AB's, Walker was on the DL for a month, Sanders has on the DL for a month and won't come back until September, and Jedmonds is having a down year. Last night's lineup was Eckstein Edmonds Pujols So Taguchi Scott Seabol Abraham Nunez Hector Luna Yadier Molina At times this year, there have been more Memphis Redbirds (AAA franchise) than Cardinals in starting spots. It's fair to say that Pujols has been carrying the Card's offense as well. on preview, looks like holden beat me to it.
posted by mbd1 at 04:46 PM on August 24, 2005
I'd go with Clemens for NL CY (Capenter is 2nd), Lee or Pujols for NL MVP (they're way ahead of everyone else; Cabrera would be third). I'd take ARod for AL MVP (over Tejada), and I think that, as of right now, I'd still take Halladay for AL Cy (with Santana in 2nd) though I don't expect to pick him in the end.
posted by spira at 06:04 PM on August 24, 2005
What no AL Cy Young??? I pretty much agree with the awards he does pick.......