11/05/24
July 02, 2005
Queen of the green. : In the thriller that anyone with eyes could have predicted, Venus Williams defeats Lindsay Davenport, 4-6, 7-6, 9-7 to win her third Wimbledon singles championship.
That'll really shut 'em up.
posted by lil_brown_bat to tennis at 12:16 PM - 30 comments
I forget about the match and tuned in as Venus was being handed the award. Having only seen that, I have to agree with your assessment of her post-victory celebration! She looked like a little kid who was just happy. Mad props tp her celebrationage.
posted by jmd82 at 12:26 PM on July 02, 2005
I was happy for Venus and enjoyed her jubilant post-match celebration. Also glad that she complete her comback and shut up all those in the media who though she was done. However, I felt Venus could have given Lindsay a little more credit when she was interviewed. In fact it was the interviewer who reminded Venus to congratulate her opponent. I don't know if Venus would have remembered to say a few nice words otherwise. Just another telling example of the Williams' sisters infamous lack of grace when winning or losing. On the otherhand, could you find a more gracious loser than Lindsay? She really held it together after such a tough loss.
posted by ny knicks at 01:04 PM on July 02, 2005
The last time that a player was down at match point and came back to win the championship was 40 years ago. Wow. I gotta see this one.
posted by rcade at 01:31 PM on July 02, 2005
I don't know if Venus would have remembered to say a few nice words otherwise. Just another telling example of the Williams' sisters infamous lack of grace when winning or losing. Correction: the interviewer didn't "remind" her to congratulate Lindsay like a mother reminding a kid of her manners. She asked an interview question, one that's completely standard in post-match interviews -- "Whadja think of how so-and-so played?" -- and therefore one that Venus would have expected to hear at some point in the interview. Waiting for it is hardly "just another telling example of the Williams' sisters infamous lack of grace", IMO. Also, put it in context: it's the on-court interview, she's just won, she's happy to the point of not being very composed...and she spent most of her interview time effusively thanking various people who'd helped her and none of it saying, "I am the greatest." Lack of grace? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:59 PM on July 02, 2005
I was going to say something, but apparently this victory has them up ... and I think me is one of them. /Good on her, though. I happen to think she's pretty spectacular.
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:06 PM on July 02, 2005
I think Lindsay was held back by the right thigh injury (well, at least there was a bandage there). She could match Venus for groundstrokes and service return, but she was being stretched in every direction (left, right, at net) by Venus, who was hitting shots to the far corners every chance she could get. Lindsay was just not going to be mobile enough today. But that's not to take anything away from Venus. I started watching at 6-5 in the second set, with Venus one set down, and not just clawing, but slashing her way back into the match. I was glued to the set. Could not believe the speed, accuracy and angles at which she was hitting her shots. Superb.
posted by worldcup2002 at 02:49 PM on July 02, 2005
The only thing now is to see what Richard says to screw up the celebration for Venus.
posted by pivo at 03:05 PM on July 02, 2005
Alright, look. You guys really, really need to step off her and her family, alright? This championship meant a lot to Venus, more than maybe even most of the other majors she's won, and it showed, and it was wonderful. And she was as graceful as any champion could be expected to be. (Where's this hating coming from?) I'm genuinely happy that Venus came through. Yay her. And the match itself was a genuine treat, from top to bottom.
posted by chicobangs at 03:22 PM on July 02, 2005
Venus absolutely deserved to win and I give her full credit for coming back and winning this championship. My comment was about the fact that she did not give credit to her opponent until the interviewer mentioned it. What the interviewer said was something along the lines of "and surely you will congratulate your opponent for such fine play?". not the exact words so if someone can correct me on that, please do. Remember the French Open when Venus lost? She said she has never even heard of her opponent and promptly left Paris saying that she was done and there was nothing more left for her. It's just very characteristic of Venus to not give credit to her opponents either in winning or losing situations. In this instance, at Wimbledown, it was less pronounced, but nonetheless I was not surprised that she did not mention what a worthy opponent she had until prompted by the interviewer.
posted by ny knicks at 05:32 PM on July 02, 2005
/dons white hood walks into tree forgot the eyeholes again
posted by squealy at 06:09 PM on July 02, 2005
I was not surprised that she did not mention what a worthy opponent she had until prompted by the interviewer. I'm not surprised that you weren't surprised. I think that what you're doing here is called "projecting". If you have a negative view of someone, you tend to see everything they do in a negative light and ascribe negative motivations to it. I confess, I'm at a loss as to what she did that's so atypical, and I really doubt you'd be this hyper-critical of anyone else who did the exact same things. Did you listen to that interview, or were you instead scrutinizing it for something to pounce on and find fault? That whole thing about not congratulating Davenport until "prompted" really reeks of a manufactured objection. As for the French Open, what should she have done -- memorize the names of every unranked junior out there, give up a week of the month remaining between her third round match and the start of Wimbledon, and stay around for four more rounds through the final just to see who won? Nobody else would have.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:08 PM on July 02, 2005
Hmmm ... this is a toughie. Here's a link to the match to which NY Knicks is referring, in which 98th-ranked 15-year-old Bulgarian Sesil Karatantcheva pretty unceremoniously thumped Venus in the third set. I'll pull out the quote in question: "I had never heard of her before this match," Williams said. "She played well, definitely. But I also felt like if I just played 10 percent better, I'm going to win this match easily." I think you can look at this in a couple ways. To be kind, Williams could be saying she was caught off-guard by the strength of the youngster and, coupled with a bad day, she lost. I'd have to also say it's pretty graceless of Williams to say if she'd played 10% better, she's have won easily. In case Venus missed the last set (and from the score, it's quite possible she did), she lost 6-1. I think it's going to take a little more than 10% to make up that difference. Furthermore, the suggestion that Williams shouldn't be expected to know every junior player is a valid one. However, when your next opponent is the reigning junior champion at the French Open, you perhaps might have heard her name once or twice, unless you really weren't paying very close attention to your tennis career at this point. And, if you're playing in a major tournament, don't you think perhaps if you've never even heard of your opponent, you might ask a few questions about her tendencies or watch a little tape? Reports of her lack of grace may be overstated, but to pin Williams with the title of not doing her homework? Right on the money.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:31 PM on July 02, 2005
Lil brown bat: You should do her PR. Amazing match. I still prefer seeing the women's final over the mens. Venus isn't the most gracious winner, nor loser. She's always come off as quite arrogant. That said, knowing her father, that's not a surprise, and she's gotten better with maturity. Besides, she's not the only top player with an attitude (well, use to be a top player). Congrats to her. Take off the white hood and give credit where it's due ny knicks ! Oh god, lay off the hyperbole. And we wonder why honest talk about race scares people.
posted by justgary at 01:23 AM on July 03, 2005
Well, I'll be honest, too. I've always found the Wiliiams sisters to be missing a particular humble quality about their game. Frankly, when they were the unofficial 1-2 in the world they could get away with it. Now that the world is again producing competition, they might want to discover a little of that respect (or they'll quit, citing 'nothing more to prove'). But, Venus won yesterday because she seemed to want it more, and it was a classic - she could have garbled into the mic and it wouldn't have changed the classic nature of her victory. Nothing but congratulations.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:39 AM on July 03, 2005
Yep, what weedy said.
posted by justgary at 11:00 AM on July 03, 2005
100% of redsoxfan91's posts start with the words "who cares." Luckily, they're so packed with insight. Meanwhile, I enjoyed both finals this year, but while the women's final was enjoyable for the competition, the men's final was watchable just for the series of jaw-gaping shots Federer pulled out.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 12:05 PM on July 03, 2005
wfrazerjr: I'd have to also say it's pretty graceless of Williams to say if she'd played 10% better, she's have won easily. In case Venus missed the last set (and from the score, it's quite possible she did), she lost 6-1. I think it's going to take a little more than 10% to make up that difference. Not necessarily, when you consider how tennis is scored. As it was an early-round match, it wasn't televised here, so I can't state that it was that close. OTOH, look at the first set of Venus's Wimbledon match against Mary Pierce. Venus wins it 6-0...a total blowout, right? I wouldn't say so, and I was watching closely. 6-0 doesn't tell you how many of those games went to deuce, or how many times it went to deuce in a given game. I'd say it's entirely possible, even probable, that if Pierce had played 10% better, she'd at least have taken it to a tiebreaker. Certainly she wouldn't have been broken three times, and she might have gotten a break or two of her own. So, the mere score of 6-1 doesn't make the "10% better" comment laughable.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:12 PM on July 03, 2005
Honest talk about race is exposing someone who looks for fault in a black athelete, and finds any reason to praise a white athelete. If you want honesty justgary there it is. Get honest with yourself and realize if this is acceptable to you, mabey your birds of a feather.
posted by degil at 10:50 PM on July 03, 2005
If you want honesty justgary there it is. Get honest with yourself and realize if this is acceptable to you, mabey your birds of a feather. Comparing someone who says venus could have been more gracious to a kkk member is beyond idiotic. Make of that what you will.
posted by justgary at 11:36 PM on July 03, 2005
lil brown bat: even if it is true or possible that if Venus had played 10% better she could have won, the point is: a graceful loser does not say something like that. A good sportsman/woman would suck up the loss and give credit where credit is due and not just say something to the effect of "I lost it, she didn't win it" which is what I hear about 90% of the time from Venus and Serena when they lose. In today's mens final, Federer showed what a true class act he is. He won decisively and showed himself to be the undoubted champion of the grass courts. Even so, he still gave Roddick a lot of credit for making it that far and talked about how his opponents, like Hewitt and Roddick, raise the level of his game and make him do better. He talked about the respect he has for his opponents' game. Maybe I am holding Venus to a high standard, but that is the type of sportsmanship I would expect from a Wimbeldon champion. One of the aspects of being a good sportsman/woman is about giving respect to your opponents whether you win or lose.
posted by ny knicks at 11:38 PM on July 03, 2005
I'm still agreeing with justgary.
posted by squealy at 04:10 AM on July 04, 2005
I've already considered how tennis is scored. Here are a few stats from that French Open, available in the article I linked: nine winners and 52 unforced errors, including seven double faults; lost serve nine times, including all four service games in the final set Removing 10% of that mess, especially the loss of four service games, is not going to make you a winner in any match.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:31 AM on July 04, 2005
I'm agreeing with justgary too, but must confess that it took me two reads of the sentence: "Comparing someone who says venus could have been more gracious to a kkk member is beyond idiotic." before I realised that he wasn't accusing Davenport of being in the KKK. Still - you never know - seems unlikely though. No one can be held too accountable for immediate post-match interviews - I had months to prepare my wedding speach, and when it came down to it I forgot to do the bit where I said how beautiful my wife was looking* - so I don't think when you've just won Wimbledon from a set down in the longest ever womens' final you can kop too much stick for forgetting to thank everyone. *Nothing should be read into the fact that we're now getting divorced.
posted by JJ at 09:33 AM on July 04, 2005
Serious, JJ? Sorry to hear about that. Damn.
posted by worldcup2002 at 01:47 PM on July 04, 2005
Cheers WC - but no need for sorrow - we're both happier since we split. Pain in the ass to sort it all out, but it's for the best etc etc.
posted by JJ at 04:01 AM on July 05, 2005
Mmmmm, yeah, what JJ said. I think y'all are picking nits and looking to find fault, really. When pressed, you can't really find anything outright objectionable in what Venus said, so you look at what she didn't say, and then when that's looked at, what she didn't say enough of, and then you move to what she said after some other match...enough already, dontcha think? Seems in being so scrupulous in detailing her faults, you're maybe revealing a few of your own, i.e., a grudge against a particular athlete, which -- to be fair -- some of you have copped to. I just see her differently. You see her as arrogant, I've seen her as someone who likes her privacy (unlike Serena) and gets awkward under the barrage sometimes. She came up against one of the hardest tests an athlete can face, which is how to come back when injuries get you down and your dominance slips and the rest of the pack is really, really hungry. All anyone saw of her was what she did in tournaments, which was just plain disappointing. But somewhere, clearly, she was spending a lot of time in the gym and putting in a lot of hard work on her tennis, and not a whisper of it showed until Wimbledon. And then, man, it was glorious. I just got a huge kick out of watching her play those last three matches so well, after seeing her struggle so much over the past few years. It was brilliant tennis, and then when she won the final...well. If you didn't see her reaction after that win, I suppose you might be forgiven for carping and sniping, "She could have been more gracious!" If you did see the post-win celebration, and you still want to snipe about Venus' lack of graciousness, I just don't get you.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:34 AM on July 05, 2005
Venus seems to be a believer in the if-I-play-my-game-the-way-I-should, I-will-win school of thought. As a result, when she loses to a 15 year old kid, she is mad at herself. She believes that she didn't get beat by her, but she beat herself. That is far better than Roddick who thinks that being second ain't so bad.
posted by bperk at 01:39 PM on July 05, 2005
I think y'all are picking nits and looking to find fault, really. When pressed, you can't really find anything outright objectionable in what Venus said, so you look at what she didn't say, and then when that's looked at, what she didn't say enough of, and then you move to what she said after some other match...enough already, dontcha think? Seems in being so scrupulous in detailing her faults, you're maybe revealing a few of your own, i.e., a grudge against a particular athlete I think you're doing your best to not find fault. Really lbb, your armchair psycho babble is way over the top. Obviously, you're a huge fan. Great. But I've watched her play tennis for a long time, and this claim of arrogance isn't something people are pulling out of thin air. Does it help her on the court? Probably. Does some of it have to do with being black and having to prove yourself to an almost all white sport? Sure. But it's there. Of course, a lot of other players have it to. She played great, it was awesome to see her excitement at the win, she's not the most gracious winner. 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
posted by justgary at 03:01 PM on July 06, 2005
She played great, it was awesome to see her excitement at the win, she's not the most gracious winner. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. justgary, I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to say exactly what was so "ungracious" about what she did or didn't do at Wimbledon. That's what started this subthread, after all. I still don't see where anyone's come up with anything substantive. If you have anything, fire away, but the thread was about the women's final at Wimbledon before it got hijacked into a miffy discussion about how Venus Williams is "not the most gracious winner".
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:56 PM on July 06, 2005
Few more inside details:
- The match was the longest women's singles final in Wimbledon history.
- Venus is the lowest-seeded player to win the championship.
- The first point at which Venus led the match was the second-set tiebreaker. She didn't take the lead in the third set until the fifteenth game.
- The last time that a player was down at match point and came back to win the championship was 40 years ago.
As for the play: Davenport was fabulous, Venus not quite as fabulous as she was in the last two matches -- if she had been, it wouldn't have been so close...or maybe it would have been; Davenport showed an amazing ability to play the game that was needed for the occasion. The biggest flaw was a scary number of double faults from Venus -- I think Venus committed eight or perhaps nine in the match. And, oh yeah: I nominate Venus Williams for best post-victory celebration of any sporting event in 2005. You just had to be happy for her.