June 16, 2005

Guillen Talks Trash: Jose Guillen called Mike Scioscia a "piece of garbage"! How arrogant can he be? If any of us out here would have treated our bosses like Guillen treated Scioscia, we would have been summarily fired not just suspended.

posted by tommysands to baseball at 09:48 AM - 15 comments

Well, to be fair, Mike Scioscia made an agressive move towards a 69 year old man, explained cheating as "accepted" (which, in the day of the steroid, is a bad position to take) and then proceeded to say that pine tar didn't even help his pitcher. I lost a lot of respect hearing all of that. Mike acted incorrectly in the heat of the moment, should have accepted the fact that his pitcher had done something illegal and moved on. He didn't, however. Plus, we have no idea what really transpired between Guillen and Scioscia during their time in Anaheim, so saying that it was Guillen acting incorrectly is jumping the gun.

posted by dfleming at 10:23 AM on June 16, 2005

Also, isn't Ozzie Guillen a bit more mouthy than your average manager naturally? I'd go so far as to say that this sounds like the kind of thing where even Scioscia, not the most even-tempered guy in the world (and yes, perhaps someone who's had run-ins with Guillen in the past) would hear this and brush it off as Ozzie being Ozzie. Plus, Frank Robinson could still kick Scioscia's ass, and yours too. Mike has bigger fish to fry right now.

posted by chicobangs at 11:01 AM on June 16, 2005

Ozzie != Jose.

posted by yerfatma at 11:04 AM on June 16, 2005

Sir, that is quite true! Hmf. That's what I get for reading Spofi while preoccupied with a conference call. Apologies.

posted by chicobangs at 11:42 AM on June 16, 2005

"``A pitcher who would have a little pine tar on his glove is not something that you`re going to go around and randomly check. It happens with a lot of pitchers in baseball and it`s just been a practice that`s accepted,`` Scioscia said, adding that will change now." To me this just shows the lack of integrity this manager (Scioscia) has. Ozzy Guillen, I believe, was the first to point out this season, Donnelly's cheating habits while on the mount. This leaves Ozzy Guillen in even better standing before my eyes. He has done a great job as a Manager thus far. As for Robinson, my respects to the gentleman of baseball.

posted by zippinglou at 12:10 PM on June 16, 2005

I agree that we (or at least I) do not know what happened when Jose Guillen was with the Angels, but from what I read in today's Washington Post (front page no less. Guess there is no Downing Street Memo to investigate... oops, there it is in the Style section) Guillen's issue this week with Scioscia was based on what Guillen perceived as hypocrisy.

"Last year, when I got suspended, Mike was talking about respect. ... To me, he showed no class yesterday. I don't know what he's talking about—respect. He can go look in the mirror."
And based on Scoscia's "everyone's doing it so what's the BFD" responses I tend to have a little sympathy for Guillen. But again, I have no clue what went on in Anaheim last year.

posted by scully at 12:32 PM on June 16, 2005

I don't disagree that what Donnley did was technically illegal. Ok, but for Guillen to call Scioscia "a piece of garbage" is stepping over the line. It wasn't Scioscia who suspended Guillen and "caused great harm to my (Guillen's) family", it was Guillen who did it to himself. To blame it on Scioscia shows a lot about Guillen. And, as we all know, Scioscia isn't the first manager Guillen has had a run in with.

posted by tommysands at 01:31 PM on June 16, 2005

Mike Scioscia made an agressive move towards a 69 year old man... Nope. Frank made the call from the dugout. The umps examine Donnelly and confiscate the glove. Scioscia leaves the dugout to argue. Frank leaves the dugout to have his say. Scioscia doesn't make "an agressive move" towards Frank. He leans over and yells at him, that it was a "bush league move" and that he's going to do the same to next pitcher; in so many words. Frank yells back. The benches clear. The only person who threatens to get physical (and is consequently restrained) is Guillen. What is truly interesting about all this, is that Guillen makes a few insults about Scioscia's integrity in the aftermath, but if you watch the clip, Guillen doesn't go after Scioscia he makes a run at some of the Angel players. "A pitcher who would have a little pine tar on his glove is not something that you're going to go around and randomly check. It happens with a lot of pitchers in baseball and it's just been a practice that's accepted," Scioscia said, adding that will change now." To me this just shows the lack of integrity this manager (Scioscia) has. Actually it is quite common (pine tar on gloves). Pitchers in the NL have to bat and occasionally get pine tar on their gloves. Equipment managers will accidentally get pine tar on gloves. I don't think this statement means that Scioscia actually believes that doctoring the ball is acceptable. I just think he's giving his player the benefit of the doubt. Scioscia isn't even debating the fact that there was pine tar on the glove, just that there wasn't enough to doctor the ball. He took umbrage with the fact that Robinson called for his pitcher to be checked before he threw a single pitch, which is almost unheard of. Hell if you really want to cling to the "integrity of the game", why not have more umps? Examiner umps who examine each piece of equipment between every inning. Assigned to watch the equipment at all times? Sure, why not? Who doesn't love sitting through a 4-5 hour game while the ump measures the mound after the pitcher kicks some of the dirt? Or while they redraw the batters box for the millionth time? Let's just wait and see what the Commissioner's office says before labelling a player a cheat, or saying that a manager condones cheating.

posted by lilnemo at 01:59 PM on June 16, 2005

In this matter, I'm willing to accept that the TV announcers, color commentators, and players know a lot more about what happens on the field than I do, and their comments lead me to believe that the use of small amounts of pine tar really isn't all that unusual or dishonest. In fact, I believe the TV guys pointed out that the Nationals starter from the previous night (Loaiza) had pine tar in full view on his pants leg, to help with his grip. We can't know what Robinson's motivation was for having Donnelly's glove checked, but based on his comments, he was clearly harboring some bitterness toward Scioscia, his 10-game win streak had just been brutally snapped, and he was in danger of losing another game. If he truly suspected Donnelly of doctoring the ball, wouldn't he have waited until a few pitches were thrown, so that there would be some evidence? Scioscia didn't make an aggressive move toward Robinson. He argued with him. Robinson's age is irrelevant, and should not be a cause for other managers to sit on their hands and let him have his way. As for Donnelly's "cheating habits", he put his hand to his mouth a couple of times... an illegal move, which he paid for, but not quite enough to label a man a cheater in my eyes. We don't know what transpired between Guillen and Scioscia in the clubhouse, but we know that Guillen was the one throwing helmets around the dugout, he was the only one from either team who had to be physically restrained in this bench-clearing non-brawl, he's been on eight teams in seven years (clearly not for lack of talent), and he seems to be just about the only player or former player who openly speaks ill of the Angels' current manager or organization.

posted by Adam at 02:25 PM on June 16, 2005

Pitchers in the NL have to bat and occasionally get pine tar on their gloves. I'm with you on the larger point, but this is a non-starter. Pitchers in the NL don't bat with their mitt on. They put pine tar somewhere on their uniform to improve their grip.

posted by yerfatma at 02:39 PM on June 16, 2005

I agree with most of the posts here especially adam and lilnemo. Donnelly did what he did and will get whatever's coming to him. But, this thread is really about Jose Guillen and his behavior. I can't recall the last time a professional player called another player or manager "a piece of garbage". And, he said it in front of the media knowing it would be printed. It's amazing that Scioscia and the Angel players were as restrained as they were. I agree with you adam, if a 69 year old guy acts the way Robinson does and says what he says "I'm the intiminator" he should be ready to take the consequences.

posted by tommysands at 03:15 PM on June 16, 2005

Its bullshit how you all support Scioscia and his pitcher, come on! here, first of all, how does Guillen know his pitchers cheat? Obviesly he played for him last year, so he knows what goes on. It was before he trew a pitch, becuase Guillen knew what was going on. I'm with Guillen to have re-acted this way, shit i would too! after suspendind me for just trowing a fit? can the old man take anything? Seems like he can't, well Guillen did what he did, and I support him, and if anyone in here doesn't like it, then, you to, can go to hell with Scioscia.

posted by Mannstah at 04:36 PM on June 17, 2005

I think Scioscia and Donnelley are in the wrong here, but what causes you to feel supportive of Jose Guillen?

posted by yerfatma at 05:23 PM on June 17, 2005

Holly cow, Mann. First Guillen calls Scioscia a "piece of garbage", now you want him to go to hell with the rest of us. What I said was Donnlley did what he did and now he got what's coming to him. He's taking his suspension, as is Scioscia without crying. Notice: Robinson is challenging his. Regardless of who's right or wrong last Wednesday or last year, I still think Guillen was wrong calling Scioscia, one of the best catchers in MLB history, a "piece of garbage". So there.....

posted by tommysands at 06:02 PM on June 17, 2005

In any case, this whole story would be a great set-up for a World Series. I miss my Expos.

posted by qbert72 at 08:46 PM on June 18, 2005

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