11/05/24
November 16, 2003
Shaquille O'Neal is the best NBA player ever, according to basketball statistician Elliott Kalb, author of the new book Who's Better, Who's Best? in Basketball.
posted by rcade to basketball at 08:47 AM - 29 comments
Chamberlin faced stiffer competition? I suppose, pre-expansion, fewer players and all but I think the average player today is better than 30-40 years ago. Plus, I think Shaq will end up with more rings (or does he already have more?)...
posted by billsaysthis at 12:52 PM on November 16, 2003
Wilt or Bill. Then Michael. Then, MAYBE Shaq. Maybe.
He's no doubt the most effective player in the game right now, but many would argue that he's not the best, even right now.
posted by forksclovetofu at 02:48 PM on November 16, 2003
I find it depressing that anyone could even consider Shaq the greatest basketball player of all time. Coming out of college Shaq was approximately the same build as David Robinson ... he made the conscious decision to lift weights as much as possible (as opposed to practicing basketball skills) so he could bull his way to the basket. I appreciate his defense (shot-blocking and rebounding) but his offense is seriously repelant. The NBA should have pulled a Mikan on Shaq and redefined, or just enforced, the offensive foul. It's plain infuriating that anyone with so little skill could be called the GOAT.
posted by Mike McD at 02:56 PM on November 16, 2003
Greatest force of all-time? Wilt Chamberlain. Greatest baller of all-time? Pete Maravich. Greatest basketball player, though ... bar none? Michael Jordan.
posted by wfrazerjr at 04:49 PM on November 16, 2003
" Shaquille O'Neal is the best NBA player ever..." That right there is enough to make you stop reading (though I read on). As is being pointed out here, Shaq isn't even the greatest center of all time, let alone player. "Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player, ever" isn't an opinion, it's not a theory, it's not a topic for discussion, it is an inexorable fact. To say otherwise reeally doesn't bode to well on the quality of one's book. Being a 7'3" behemoth doesn't make you a great basketball player. He isn't even the best basketball player (not saying MVP, not saying "not integral", saying "basketball player") on his team. It would almost be easier to make the case that Shaq is not a good basketball player at all, just an athletic, very large man (who none of the offensive foul rules seem to apply to).
posted by pivo at 05:27 PM on November 16, 2003
Jordan's the best. One of the best all-time defensive players in addition to being one of the greatest offensive players. And these two guys are better than Shaq: "Wilt scored 60 or more points in a single game 32 times." "Here's the stat you should take away about Russell's career, as Kalb notes. His record in Game 7s was 10-0."
posted by kirkaracha at 09:30 PM on November 16, 2003
On top of all of the other arguments that have been made in favour of one player or another, consider the demands of the media: when Wilt and Bill played, the league was barely scraping along, with a few games shown on network television. Fast forward to Jordan's era, and he has to deal with his image on network and cable television 100 times per year, with many of those games broadcast all over the world, videogames in which he kicks everyone else's ass, commercials on TV every 10 minutes, and Marv's orgasmic "YES!" punctuating every big basket. That's a pretty powerful collective gaze watching every move he makes, and yet he was consistently clutch during his career. That, to me, is the extra nudge that puts MJ over the edge as the greatest. As for a book that suggests Shaq is the greatest ever? Sounds like an expensive way to line a birdcage....
posted by smithers at 09:46 PM on November 16, 2003
Dittos pivo.
posted by vito90 at 07:51 AM on November 17, 2003
You shouldn't fault a thundering behemoth for playing the game the way he's allowed to play it. I wouldn't call Shaq the best player ever, but his claim to that title is just as strong as any of the other legendary big men. And I say that as someone who isn't his fan at all.
posted by rcade at 08:45 AM on November 17, 2003
Shaq is one of the all-time greats. Period. He is a defensive and offensive force, changes a game and wins. Statistical comparisons from era to era are a little difficult - but is he the best all-time? I find that a little difficult to believe, Jordan is probably my pick. But if Shaq can be dismissed for his physical gifts than the same criteria should be used for anyone wth a genetic advantage - Wilt, Russel and even those pesky guards apply. Speed (at the NBA level) is inherent as well. Smithers - Jordan faced the spotlight yes, but in Basketball crazed towns so did the older players. Bill Russell had his house vandalized in Boston because of racism. Each era has it's particular hardships, we think too often that ours is the most difficult because of essentially TV cameras and repeated questions ad nauseum.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:12 AM on November 17, 2003
If anything, I think the greater levels of attention for players like Jordan and Shaq feeds their huge egos, goading them to better performances--I'm sure Wilt (20,00 women can't be wrong!) Chamberlain would have loved it too. Probably have to go with Jordan especially since he won plenty of rings while Shaq was an opponent but not vice versa (the real Jordan, not the pale clone who took up court space for the Wizards).
posted by billsaysthis at 11:34 AM on November 17, 2003
I think the greater levels of attention for players like Jordan and Shaq feeds their huge egos, goading them to better performances You know the exhaust pipe is supposed to point outside of the car, right?
posted by yerfatma at 12:07 PM on November 17, 2003
Oh yerfatma!
posted by billsaysthis at 03:42 PM on November 17, 2003
I subscribe to this opinion:
Greatest force of all-time? Wilt Chamberlain. Greatest baller of all-time? Pete Maravich. Greatest basketball player, though ... bar none? Michael Jordan.
I put Shaq half a tick below Chamberlain, cause Shaq has yet to lead the league in assists in a season. Much less achieve a 50 PPG season. I hate to do it, but I rate Jordan GOAT because he was well-rounded.
posted by lilnemo at 03:58 PM on November 17, 2003
Hot damn. If lilnemo and I agree, it's all ovah, baby! Cut the nets!
posted by wfrazerjr at 04:19 PM on November 17, 2003
Is this it? is the thread done? Is it safe to segway (not derail)? Whose your all-time top 5? Or your all-time starting 5?
posted by lilnemo at 04:55 PM on November 17, 2003
Weedy: agreed that the earlier players also received a great deal of exposure, but there is a difference of orders of magnitude in what they received to the global millions that watched Jordan on the highest stage in his heyday. To suggest that these are comparable is ludicrous. The biggest crowd I played in front of was about 2,000 people, and that is a hell of a lot different than 200. The few times local TV was involved changed things even more. I guess I can only extrapolate to imagine what 200 million people watching is like.
posted by smithers at 07:05 PM on November 17, 2003
lilnemo: all time starting 5: 1. Iverson 2. Jordan 3. McGrady 4. Russell 5. Shaq now do I have to defend these picks...??
posted by smithers at 07:31 PM on November 17, 2003
McGrady at the 3? No reason to be defensive on the picks. An explanation as to why would be nice. I'm interested!
posted by lilnemo at 09:03 PM on November 17, 2003
McGrady: he's got all of the shots in his bag, and when I think of him, I think liquid. He's a better long-range shooter than Kobe, and wouldn't spend the whole time trying to upstage Jordan. His lankiness as a cover man on D gives him the nod for me over Bird (and I loved Bird growing up). Think about how well Pippen complemented Jordan, and then hypothetically substitute T-Mac for Pippen, and you start drooling. Kobe for T-Mac straight up will be the only thing that keeps Phil Jackson around after the Lakers win it all this year. There's no way politically that the Raptors could have gotten rid of Vince a few years back, but believe me that they have kicked their own asses every day since they let McGrady go instead.
posted by smithers at 09:34 PM on November 17, 2003
T-Mac is nowhere near Scottie defensively. HoGrant said as much here.
Furthermore: OK, OK … but, besides Shaq, who is the NBA's premier player? "There's no question about it," says McGrady. "It's Kobe and he's got three rings to prove it." Also of note: "I don't know too much about zones because I didn't go to college" - Tracy McGrady. Your guy is shooting holes in his own case!
posted by lilnemo at 09:47 PM on November 17, 2003
By the bye, roughly a week after the Rosen article, HoGrant mysteriously was dropped from the Magic roster. The second quote is from this season, I believe just after the Minnesota game.
posted by lilnemo at 09:48 PM on November 17, 2003
I'd put a passer at the 3, Bird or Magic. Who on your roster is moving the ball around exactly?
posted by lilnemo at 09:49 PM on November 17, 2003
I'm in agreement with Mike McD's comments earlier in the thread. Regardless of Shaq's accomplishments, there's no way someone with so few basketball skills could be regarded as the GOAT by fans. But his off-the-charts size and athleticism do make him an all-time great.
posted by cg1001a at 10:20 PM on November 17, 2003
Who on your roster is moving the ball around exactly? Iverson. He is quite content to set his teammates up, as we saw this summer in the Olympic qualifiers. He would be absolutely devastating at getting into the paint and then dropping off to open men, plus he is great in transition.
posted by smithers at 07:51 AM on November 18, 2003
Alright, I'll bite smithers. As an aside, I have a perverse hope that AI reverses field in the next few years and becomes a pass first PG. That would be startling if not refreshing. Can't you just see it? As Iverson slowly grows older he relies more on tact and skill than quickness. Leading the league in assists as the 76ers return to the Finals?
posted by lilnemo at 01:10 PM on November 18, 2003
nemo: I hear what you are saying, but understand that Iverson MUST shoot first, second and third on that Sixers team because they are TERRIBLE. Larry Brown conjured that Finals team out of tough D, grit and ankle tape. On my dream 5, the burden of being the only real scorer isn't on AI, so he will be more content to distribute (as shown this summer). I tried to build my all-time starting five with some sort of chemistry in mind. As you are probably aware, my 5 is created around Jordan, and I honestly believe that the other 4 would have enough humility to see it that way.....let your snickering begin
posted by smithers at 02:06 PM on November 18, 2003
As you are probably aware, my 5 is created around Jordan, and I honestly believe that the other 4 would have enough humility to see it that way Tell Shaq that.
posted by lilnemo at 02:33 PM on November 18, 2003
I think McCallum's points in the first link are solid. Shaq is a great, historically great, player -- but Wilt Chamberlain is a comparable player who probably faced stiffer competition, and the Shaq era didn't (couldn't?) begin until the Jordan era ended. Interesting links, thanks.