11/21/24
September 25, 2003
Has Pat Gillick lost his Midas touch? Or is he doing exactly what the owners are paying him to do? My dictionary defines inevitability as what happens to the Seattle Mariners in the second half of every season.
Hasn't that been the line on the M's for the last few years: Better than their record?
posted by garfield at 09:26 AM on September 25, 2003
Well - I'd say they're worse then their record. Beyond Boone and Ichiro there aren't a lot of Mariners I consider good. Cilrilo was a joke, Olerud is way past his prime (and a chronic underachiever in my book), Edgar is fantastic - but not going to last, Mike Cameron strikeout machine, Dan Wilson? decent but not great, Guillen looks pretty good though - And decent pitching without a clear number one (though this year Moyer has been great). Meche looks like he'll be good and Pinero shouldn't be given up on with his stuff - but I think they've squandered so many opportunities in the last three years that it's going to get worse before it gets better. Love that Ichiro though - I'd pay to watch him play baseball. He plays a different game than most.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:49 AM on September 25, 2003
I think they are nether overachievers nor underachievers. I think they are accomplishing just about what you might expect, which year in and year out puts them right on the fringes of big time success. Ichiro and Boone are the top one or two at their position, Moyer is an uber stud, and the rest of the starting staff as are good a young crew as you can find. This is what makes it SO frustrating. The Mariner's don't need to do much at all to eek out out a few extra wins in the heart of a pennat race. In Gillick's defense, the Sanchez pick up was great, for two reasons. One, he has hit the shit out of the ball, and two, it allowed a shift of Guillen to Third, and Cirillo to bench, so you pick up BA points at both positions. But to unload Jeff Nelson for speaking his mind is the mark of a team that doesn't care that much and sends a lousy message to the other guys slogging it out on the field. Mark my words. Seattle fans are A) bandwagon fans and B) Football fans primarily anyway. Next year, unless favorites are kept, cancers are unloaded, and new blood is brought in, M's attendance will dip below 20 K per game.
posted by vito90 at 10:25 AM on September 25, 2003
right, that's what I meant. just ignore this baseball neophyte.
posted by garfield at 11:09 AM on September 25, 2003
the rest of the starting staff as are good a young crew as you can find How old are the A's starters again? Look South, young Vito!
posted by billsaysthis at 11:35 AM on September 25, 2003
Isn't Olerud just a grown-up Timmy-the-Helmet-Kid from down the block of Everytown, USA?
posted by lilnemo at 11:37 AM on September 25, 2003
bill - I know we can trot out better young staffs, I mean the Cubbies and the A's for sure are ahead of the M's. But with a little bit more run support Ryan Franklin's record gains about six wins, and Pineiro and Meche are super young kids. I'm just saying, this is a staff that you can build around.
posted by vito90 at 11:42 AM on September 25, 2003
My understanding -- and I don't have a link for this, but do remember reading it -- is that ownership has not given him the green light to take on salary at the trading deadline the past two years. It may be the kind of thing where ownership says, "Hey, we're in first place. Why make a change?" Regardless of whether he was under an ownership-imposed salary cap, however, it seems that there are other enterprising GMs in the game who have been able to work creatively in tight salary situations by either involving additional teams in deals, getting current players to defer salary, etc.
posted by holden at 11:46 AM on September 25, 2003
Isn't Olerud just a grown-up Timmy-the-Helmet-Kid from down the block of Everytown, USA? HAHAHAHAHA! Hilarious, lilnemo, I love it!
posted by msacheson at 12:03 PM on September 25, 2003
This is the first year that John Olerud hasn't be valuable to his team. He's a rock-steady defender and fantastic hitter. However, his limited power he had has now completely disappeared. It's like there is only one John Olerud, and now that Nick Johnson of the Yankees has assumed the (statistical) role, Johnny-O is fading away. I'm just wondering if Olerud can switch back to being a pitcher at this point in his career. When he was drafted by the Blue Jays, it was always thought that his college pitching numbers would translate nicely to the majors, and that if he washed out as a hitter, he could go to the minors (where he has NEVER been) and come back as a pitcher. I wonder if he still considers it. Cirillo? It still remains a mystery how going to Colorado could possibly HINDER a hitter, but it seems to have put some sort of mental block on him and he's completely lost his hitting touch from his Brewer days. Ichiro is one of the few players I'd pay a ticket to see play without any team affiliation. ARod, Pedro, Halladay, Bonds and Randy Johnson are the others. I will not speak an ill-word of Mr. Gillick as he was the architect of the Blue Jays dynasty from 1985-1993. For that, he is ALWAYS a great man in my books.
posted by grum@work at 12:24 PM on September 25, 2003
First, I think there were a number of niggling injuries that they sustained: Ichiro got off to a slow start, then on fire until the All-Star break, and then hit .260 since. He took some balls off his ankle a few times, plus he got knocked silly by Cameron when there was a lack of communication in (IIRC) late July. Olerud had a hamstring injury after the All-Star break. Anyone who knows anything about such injuries knows that they never quite go away, and need a long time to get back to normal. Cameron also had an injury in early August (IIRC) which I think was his back. His batting, which had been quite good for a defensive specialist, fell off after the injury. He didn't have as many holes in his swing this year. Meche hit the wall. Why not? Since he hadn't pitched a full season in a long, long time. Rhodes. Fell off his form big time after his ankle injury in mid-August. Edgar, Guillen, Sasaki. No need to waste space about all of their injuries. Players without a excuse for the drop off: Boone. I'd like to see a breakdown of his batting average with runners in scoring position since the All-Star break. Their fall was pretty much because of their inability to hit with runners in scoring position, and he was chiefly to blame. Freddy Garcia. Form all over the place this year, but in his defense was arguably their most dependable pitcher down the stretch. Pinero hit the wall in August away to Cleveland, and never really reclaimed his form except when he got extra rest. There always had been talk that he wasn't strong enough for him to last the entire season as a starter. They have pretty much been proven right. Wilson/Davis - Wilson didn't get as many clutch hits this year compared to years past. Davis' hitting was pretty much blah. Winn can only be blamed for starting off slowly, but is going to end this season with practically the same numbers as he put up last year. (save for HRs taken away by Safeco) Cirillo just hasn't worked out. Very solid defensive player. He wasn't at fault for the slide in the 2nd half as he rarely played. I'm hopeful they give him another year to turn it around because he won't be worth much on the trade market. Looking back, I would say that their pitching overachieved for the first half of the year (except Freddy) and then the bullpen eventually wore down in the 2nd half of the year. Management cannot go without mention. They did very little, but with respectable results, especially with Sanchez, (jettisoning Nelson for Benitez was a wash in my mind) They have plenty of talent in the minors (former M's farmhand Posednik is going to finish in the top 2 in the NL rookie of the year vote, and Seattle got nothing for him) and are being very stingy letting it go in trades, hoping that some of that low-cost talent will blossom. Thus upper managment, not necessarily Gillick since he's got lame duck status, (I'm sure he couldn't pull the trigger on a trade without Armstrong's OK) is probably to blame for the drop off. They compromised this year's success for potential future success. (and certain lower payroll) I belive that they'll get rid of Cirillo. Free agents Garcia, Benitez, Sanchez, Guillen, will not be signed. Possibly Rhodes could go if they can get a 2-for-1 on lefty relievers.
posted by GoDizzGo at 03:15 PM on September 26, 2003
I think the players are actually being affected now when they see every other contender adding that one or two players that might help before the deadline - and the Mariners getting nothing. Plus, in my opinion this team really played over its head the first half - wasn't as good as it seemed. How about that Jamie Moyer though?