11/21/24
June 19, 2003
Allen Iverson and Kenyon Martin need to lose ‘thug’ image.: At least if they want to win a championship instead of the latest shoe contract. That’s what Gregg Easterbrook writes in his latest Tuesday Morning Quarterback. Agree or disagree?
posted by Mike McD to basketball at 08:27 AM - 17 comments
Dennis Rodman to thread! Tha thug life might conceivably work against a player on an individual foul call, but this is just another of Easterbrook's grand oversimplifications. And I am shocked--shocked--at the suggestion that something besides pure play on the court could affect NBA officiating.
posted by Mookieproof at 10:23 AM on June 19, 2003
Easterbrook reallly needs to stay away from the NBA, it's not anything where he knows what he's talking about. And what's up with all the cheesecake shots? Is this supposed to, like, make me think he's down with the common man's sporting mind or something?
posted by Justin Slotman at 10:45 AM on June 19, 2003
The reason that Easterbrook’s article interested me is his observation Since the thug look came in a decade or so ago, who's been winning NBA titles? Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, Michael Jordan ... all clean-cut, normal-armed, winning-smile guys you'd want your daughter to marry. I noticed the same thing a couple years ago and it got me thinking … why are clean cut guys winning the titles? My conclusion is that it’s psychological. Psychologically it’s not always easy to accept great success, you have to believe that you really deserve good things and good things are going to happen to you (if you take the winning jump shot it will go in instead of falling short, you’ll get the foul call instead of getting stiffed). I don’t think the critical effect of the ‘thug’ image is the effect it has on the refs, I think the critical effect of the ‘thug’ image is the effect it has on the players themselves. For example, imagine a thief who planned a perfect bank robbery and stole $10 million dollars. The thief knows for certain he got away with it, that he’ll never be caught, but I imagine that he wouldn’t be able to truly enjoy himself because he stole the money, he knows he did something bad. I imagine that increases the chance he’ll do something to undermine himself, gambling, wasteful spending. In the similar way, I wonder if the ‘thug’ image negatively effects a player’s self-esteem. If your self image is ‘bad’ is it more likely that you’ll do something to undermine your chance of success? I think the answer is yes. My favourite NBA player is Allen Iverson and I’ve been rooting for him to lose the ‘thug’ image since he lost the finals. Not because I don’t like the ‘thug’ image, on the contrary I love the Iverson’s style. No, I’ve been hoping he would change his image because I’m afraid he won’t win a ring unless he does. And in my lifetime I really want to see him smiling with that ring. Of course I could have the causality wrong. Maybe players who feel like they are ‘bad’ are more likely to adopt a ‘thug’ image. Maybe Allen Iverson and Kenyon Martin are always scowling because they’ve always lost in the past and they’re expecting another loss. Put simply, do people smile because they win or do people win because they smile? I lean towards the latter, it makes sense to me that attitude would effect the outcome of games. Agree or disagree?
posted by Mike McD at 11:26 AM on June 19, 2003
I've had similar thoughts regarding the "thugs" for a few years now. The conclusion I came to is that the teams and players that win do so in a "team" mindset. The "thugs" have an overlarge "me, me, ME" style of play, not conducive to success at a championship level.
posted by Scottymac at 12:39 PM on June 19, 2003
And what's up with all the cheesecake shots? The guy with tons of cheesecake shots and a lecherous-looking mug shot is preaching about morality and image? Get the man a mirror!
posted by dusted at 01:28 PM on June 19, 2003
Scottymac, I don't agree with the team thing at all. The guy who actually got me really thinking about it is C. Webber who is a great team player but just can't seem to win championships. And as crazy as it sounds I started to think part of Webber's problem is he's always scowling on the court. Maybe you have to be happy to be successful, like a good blackjack table. Webber is a good example as well because his on court demeanor doesn't match who he is. He's a blue collar kid from Michigan but he'll play up the 'thug' image on the court (remember when he did the 'slit the throat' gesture). Whenever I see Webber scowling I can't help but think 'what is he so angry about? He's got so much going for him?'. Since confidence and emotions are so closely tied maybe your smile is as important as your vertical jump.
posted by Mike McD at 01:41 PM on June 19, 2003
C. Webb smiles a lot on the court as well, maybe as not as much as he scowls, but he blasts the pearly whites more than many other players I've seen.
posted by corpse at 01:47 PM on June 19, 2003
MMcD: The reason that Easterbrook’s article interested me is his observation Since the thug look came in a decade or so ago, who's been winning NBA titles? Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, Michael Jordan ... all clean-cut, normal-armed, winning-smile guys you'd want your daughter to marry. I noticed the same thing a couple years ago and it got me thinking … why are clean cut guys winning the titles? JS: Shaq is clean-cut? Tim Ducan looks like a serial killer. They've both got tatoos. MJ is a lecherous creep. There's your past 8 NBA champions. I'm not a father, but I'd be a little terrified seeing Timmy with that crazy forced smile showing up at my door. And K-Mart hasn't been a thug for the past season and a half. Did Page 2 demand off-season columns out of Easterbrook? We need the NFL back so he can talk about something he actually knows something about again.
posted by Justin Slotman at 02:08 PM on June 19, 2003
I think I've watched a fair amount of C. Webb and I don't think he smiles very much on the court. It kind of suprised me when I noticed because I'm used to seeing him smiling, when he's off the court, in interviews, etc. And it is memorable when he smiles because he has a ton charisma but he usually looks angry when he's on the court. Think back to last year in the Kings-Lakers series, towards the end of games and when he didn't get foul calls, Webber would get totally pissed. He seems to have developed an on-court persona that seems to be at odds with his off-court persona. I can't help but wonder if that doesn't hurt his game.
posted by Mike McD at 02:12 PM on June 19, 2003
I disagree Mike - I'm usually a happy-go-lucky guy, but I turn all DeNiro-in-Cape-Fear when I'm on the court. I don't know why, but once I'm in a game, it comes out as aggression and I look mean. Happy, well-adjusted pro athletes can turn into raging monsters while on the playing field. I would never call Webber a monster (In fact, I'd probably call him soft), but it may explain the phenomenon you're talking about.
posted by dusted at 04:09 PM on June 19, 2003
Tim Duncan looks like a serial killer. If I had a daughter, I would be concerned if she was marrying someone who looks that much like Slingblade.
posted by rcade at 07:10 AM on June 20, 2003
I didn't have the patience to wade through that book-length column, but if Easterbrook is adopting a moralist tone, he's gotta be joshing around. As an aside, I can't believe there are so many objections to gratuitous cheesecake here.
posted by rcade at 07:14 AM on June 20, 2003
Three cheers for cheesecake! That should be SportsFilter's new motto, if it had not been suddenly invaded by PRUDES.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:02 AM on June 20, 2003
Prude? Hey, I have nothing against cheesecake! I just found it funny that Easterbrook's little morality tale was surrounded by flesh tone, that's all.
posted by dusted at 10:15 AM on June 20, 2003
Yeah, we're just wondering why he does it all the time--his use of cheerleaders always seems calculated to me. By the way, cheesecake is for prudes. To paraphrase Bernie Mac, it's for little boys too scared to buy porno.
posted by Justin Slotman at 10:54 AM on June 20, 2003
The reason that Easterbrook?s article interested me is his observation Since the thug look came in a decade or so ago, who's been winning NBA titles? Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, Michael Jordan ... all clean-cut, normal-armed, winning-smile guys you'd want your daughter to marry. I noticed the same thing a couple years ago and it got me thinking ? why are clean cut guys winning the titles? Dennis Rodman anyone?
posted by gyc at 08:36 PM on June 21, 2003
Put me down in the disagree column. They got to the finals, any team that gets to the finals has a good shot at winning. Even a huge underdog squad that has no shot on paper against the west. Everybody always says, if the Nets were in the West they would have been a 4-seed or 5-seed or whatever and gotten knocked out by this team or that team. Blah. Whatever. Fact is, the ARE in the East, they came out of the East to make the finals and therefore had a shot to win it all. The problem wasn't Allen's or Martin's thuggishness, the problem(s) were named Bryant, O'Neal, Parker, Duncan. Muhammad Ali said (ooh - I HATE to mention Ali and Martin/Iverson in the same sentence...but...), "I don't have to be what you want me to be; I'm free to be what I want." How about Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill and Vince Carter and Baron Davis and Dirk Nowitzki and Mike Bibby? They're all "nice" guys, non-thuggish in appearance. They didn't get the whiff of a title shot like Allen and Martin have. So what's their problem?