12/21/24
January 31, 2011
Pujols hitting the market? Find way to pay, St. Louis: This can't be happening, yet it is. St. Louis first baseman Albert Pujols can't be talking about free agency. The Cardinals can't be less than three weeks away from making that crazy conversation a reality. It's impossible. All of it. Pujols is too classy, and the Cardinals are run too smartly, for this happen.
Yet here we are.
One thing Pujols would have working against him on the market is that neither the Yankees nor Red Sox will be in the market for a first baseman.
That's really not the case at all.
If Pujols becomes available, the Yankees and Red Sox would have absolutely no problem moving whoever they have at 1B into the DH position. No offense to Teixeira and Gonzalez, but they aren't in the same class as Pujols, and neither of them should be blocking him from being on their team.
When a singular talent like this becomes available, you do everything you can to have him on your team (if you have the financial clout and the desire/ability to win).
posted by grum@work at 08:15 AM on February 01, 2011
That's really not the case at all.
I disagree. Both Teixeira and Gonzalez see themselves as complete players, so I'm guessing neither one is going to be happy spending the next 5-7 years as a DH for multiple reasons (market, place in history, etc.). If the Red Sox believe they're going to sign Gonzalez to a long term contract as a DH I think they're dreaming.
Perhaps the Red Sox don't come to terms with Gonzalez or maybe the Yankees believe Teixeira is on the down side of his career and they go with Pujols, but I don't see your scenario happening.
I also don't see the Red Sox giving Pujols an Arod contract, and I'd hate to believe even the Yankees would have two players with Arod style contracts, but I'd give them a better chance than the Red Sox. Either way, Teixeira/Gonzalez would be gone in my opinion.
posted by justgary at 09:59 AM on February 01, 2011
I disagree. Both Teixeira and Gonzalez see themselves as complete players, so I'm guessing neither one is going to be happy spending the next 5-7 years as a DH
Totally agree. Neither would ever consent to be a DH at this point in their careers.
Pujols is probably the top player in the game, without question, but that still doesn't change the fact first base is a position filled by fairly solid players around much of the league. While none can put up the numbers of Pujols, quite a few are still close enough where they won't tie up the amount of cash he (Pujols) is going to command at that position.
Pujols is going to be a very rich man, but it's not hard to envision a scenario almost like ARod found himself in a few years back, where there aren't the teams totally willing to devote the required amount of money to gain his services. Hopefully St. Louis makes him a fair offer he can ultimately see himself staying around for.
That being said, a team like Washington will probably go crazy with a offer.
posted by dyams at 10:13 AM on February 01, 2011
Neither would ever consent to be a DH at this point in their careers.
Well, Teixeira (who is only a couple months younger than Pujols) is signed to a contract that extends to the end of the 2016 season, and he'll be 37 when he signs a new one. He would be a bit delusional to expect to sign another long term contract to exclusively play 1B. He also stated that he came to the Yankees to win championships. Do you think he'd raise that big of a stink about splitting 1B/DH duties with the best hitter in the game?
Gonzalez's current contract ends at the end of this season. He is only two years younger than Pujols. If I'm the Red Sox, and both players are available for free agency at the end of 2011, I know I'm throwing everything I've got to get him, and then "fall back" on Gonzalez as a second option.
And just so we know what we are talking about in regards to talent, Mark Teixeira's best season (152 OPS+) is virtually equal to Albert Pujols' worst season (151 OPS+).
Adrian Gonzalez's best season (162 OPS+, 2009 at age 27) is the only one in his career that is better than Albert Pujols' worst season (though their OPS were almost the same).
quite a few [1B] are still close enough where they won't tie up the amount of cash he (Pujols) is going to command at that position.
Anyone that could put up numbers even in the same area code as Pujols are already tied up in big contracts (Teixeira, Howard, Cabrera, Votto, Dunn). The only ones available are Adrian Gonzalez and Prince Fielder. If you want to invest $20million/season for those guys instead of $30million/season for Pujols, that might make sense. But if Pujols signs for $27million/season, or those guys go for $22million/season, then it isn't so obvious to me that they would be the better investment.
Personally, I just want St. Louis to pay him what he wants and keep him.
posted by grum@work at 12:12 PM on February 01, 2011
Do you think he'd raise that big of a stink about splitting 1B/DH duties with the best hitter in the game?
Of course he would. He wants to win championships, yes. I'm guessing he probably also takes pride in being a complete player. And now you're asking him to be half the player he could be through the rest of his prime. Maybe you're right, but I doubt it. Add to the fact that Pujols contract plus Arods would be an incredible amount of money even for the Yankees and I think a year after Tex says he has no problem being a DH/part time 1st baseman he's traded to another team.
And again, maybe it works. But I don't see much precedent for a gold glove player to give up half of his prime career years even if the other player is better. Maybe Tex is that player, but I doubt it.
posted by justgary at 02:24 PM on February 01, 2011
But I don't see much precedent for a gold glove player to give up half of his prime career years even if the other player is better.
How often does the opportunity arise? If the Red Sox could sign Albert Pujols, Gonzalez better have a big damn smile on his face about DHing or playing left field or whatever.
posted by yerfatma at 03:07 PM on February 01, 2011
How often does the opportunity arise?
That teams don't go for player X even though he's a great player because they already have player Y who's pretty good? All the time? The only difference is we're talking about one of the best players of all time. So it's rare in that regard, I admit. And gold glove fielders are not normally asked to DH for the remainder of their prime years. Point taken. But I think one of the reasons you don't see it is because it's not going to work.
The original comment:
One thing Pujols would have working against him on the market is that neither the Yankees nor Red Sox will be in the market for a first baseman.
didn't say it couldn't be done. It said it's working against him. Grum said that wasn't really the case. I fail to see how that's not exactly the case. Are we really saying that Pujols wouldn't be in a better position if the Red Sox and Yankees had questions at first base instead of potential MVP candidates? That seems pretty crazy to me.
If the Red Sox could sign Albert Pujols, Gonzalez better have a big damn smile on his face about DHing or playing left field or whatever.
Or playing for the Cubs next season.
posted by justgary at 04:45 PM on February 01, 2011
But I don't see much precedent for a gold glove player to give up half of his prime career years even if the other player is better.
What if the other player was worse?
posted by grum@work at 09:44 PM on February 02, 2011
What if the other player was worse?
I'm reading that situation differently. Arod was the better player, both offensively and defensively, and yet Jeter would not swallow his pride and move from shortstop. Arod did move to third. I don't find that comparable to switching to DH. Not to mention I think Arod knew his days at short where limited.
Maybe Tex does swallow his pride for the sake of championships, but I don't believe a player that obviously sees himself as a complete player makes that transition easily.
Perhaps Pujols and Tex could share DH/1B duties. Tex makes 22.5 million 2011-2016. Unless Pujols decides to leave money on the table he's not going to sign for less. So even at 25 million that's over 47 million at 1st base.
Arod makes 31 million in 2011, and only slightly less in future years. That's 78 million at the corners. Jeter makes 15 million this year. Cano makes 10 million.
That's 103 million a year for 5 players (infield plus DH). Nothing the Yankees do would surprise me, but that's a lot of money.
posted by justgary at 01:30 PM on February 03, 2011
A player like Teixeira, in this example, shouldn't have to move anywhere, based on the fact he's not miles behind Pujols in batting prowess, and he's also a tremendous defensive first baseman.
The ARod/Jeter situation is merely a situation where Jeter is a iconic figure with the Yankees. At the point where this took place, he was not ever going to switch positions to accommodate ARod, and ARod was actually a better fit with regards to making a move to third. Plus both were still playing the field, side by side. Having a great fielder (and hitter) have to possibly be a full-time DH, only being on the field for four or five at bats a game, is a slap in the face. It would be nice if any player would step up and volunteer to take a move like that, and basically say "I'll give up my position so the team can sign Pujols and have a better chance to dominate!" but that really ain't gonna happen.
posted by dyams at 01:51 PM on February 03, 2011
A player like Teixeira, in this example, shouldn't have to move anywhere, based on the fact he's not miles behind Pujols in batting prowess, and he's also a tremendous defensive first baseman.
Yes, he is miles behind Pujols.
He's only 2 months younger than Pujols, and Teixeira's best season of his career is equal to the worst season of Pujols' career.
In terms of runs created with the bat, Pujols would have to lose about 24% of his value from 2010 to 2011 to equal what Teixeira did in 2010.
It's like saying "Well, we've got Tim Raines as our leadoff batter for our team, so I don't think we should go after Rickey Henderson (circa 1990), because I think Raines would object to being moved to #2 in the order."
(In actuality, something like this DID happen in 1993. When the Jays traded for Rickey Henderson, the perfectly acceptable leadoff hitter for the Jays (Devon White) agreed to move to #2 in the order because he recognized it would help the team to pick up Henderson.)
posted by grum@work at 09:08 AM on February 04, 2011
I'm reading that situation differently. Arod was the better player, both offensively and defensively, and yet Jeter would not swallow his pride and move from shortstop. Arod did move to third. I don't find that comparable to switching to DH. Not to mention I think Arod knew his days at short where limited.
Interpret it as a super-star player agreeing to switch positions to help the team and better their chances to win a World Series.
Also, I don't think ARod thought his days at SS were limited, as he had just won the Gold Glove for that position that season, and he hadn't yet turned 28 years old.
In summary, it's happened before (on the Yankees), so it could happen again.
posted by grum@work at 09:11 AM on February 04, 2011
Yes, he is miles behind Pujols.
While prefacing my comments with a statement agreeing Pujols is the best hitter in baseball, I still don't consider a hitter like Teixeira "miles" behind. Teixeira has driven in over 100 runs in all but his first major league season for a total of 906 in 8 seasons (compared to Pujols' 1230 in 10 seasons), has 1321 hits, and 275 HRs. Again, Pujols is the best, but I'm not going to take anything away from Mark Teixeira. Plus, Teixeira takes a backseat to nobody with his glove.
posted by dyams at 10:19 AM on February 04, 2011
Interpret it as a super-star player agreeing to switch positions to help the team and better their chances to win a World Series.
That fits well with your theory, but I don't find the two scenarios that similar. Jeter was a living legend at the time. He was going nowhere. And although Arod won a gold glove the year before, I still feel he, and his agent, knew his eventual position would be third. It's been several years since Arod could even be considered capable of playing shortstop. I'm guessing Teixeira could play first much longer into his contract than Arod could play short.
And again, moving to 3rd isn't the same as moving into a DH role. I'm betting Arod would not have gone to the Yankees as a DH.
In summary, it's happened before (on the Yankees), so it could happen again.
Sure it could, I don't deny that. Though I still believe it would be tough keeping both Pujols and Teixeira happy, and I think the Yankees would eventually try and move Teixeira.
I don't see boston being in the mix. They knew Pujols would be a possible free agent. I doubt they would have gone so hard for Gonzalez if they had their eye on Pujols. I don't think the Red Sox want an Arod contract, and I'm betting the Yankees wish they didn't have an Arod contract either at this point.
posted by justgary at 03:50 PM on February 04, 2011
One thing Pujols would have working against him on the market is that neither the Yankees nor Red Sox will be in the market for a first baseman. That leaves one team who could pull it off financially and would actually have a place for him: the Cubs. Would he actually do *that* to St. Louis? I don't know. Even as a Cubs fan myself, I think he belongs in St. Louis.