12/21/24
January 11, 2010
Neurosurgeon: Ali Never Should Have Fought Holmes: Here's an unexpected place to find sports commentary -- the weblog of the Columbia University Medical Center's Department of Neurological Surgery. "In October of 1980 Muhammad Ali came out of retirement to fight Larry Holmes in an attempt to win an unprecedented fourth World Heavyweight Boxing Championship," begins a blog entry posted this morning. "The fight lasted ten rounds though it was clear after the first couple that Ali was going down. At one point in anguish, commentator Howard Cosell says, 'this has got to end.' What we know now is that this fight was even more unfair than they knew; Ali had Parkinson's Disease."
Man has always celebrated the gladiator for what he was, not who he was. Hopefully, we're moving in the right direction with all of the emphasis on concussions.
posted by dviking at 12:23 PM on January 11, 2010
if you haven't seen the ESPN 30 for 30 film "Muhammad and Larry" by Albert Maysles and Bradley Kaplan, watch it. It's a terrific look into the people surrounding Ali, and also how strong a fighter Larry Holmes really was at this time.
Here's a link to the ESPN site about the film.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:37 PM on January 11, 2010
Man has always celebrated the gladiator for what he was, not who he was. Hopefully, we're moving in the right direction with all of the emphasis on concussions.
It makes one wonder about the long-term future of boxing. We are basically talking about a sport in which the goal is to concuss the opponent until he/she can no longer go on.
posted by holden at 02:12 PM on January 11, 2010
We are basically talking about a sport in which the goal is to concuss the opponent until he/she can no longer go on.
Just because boxing is a combat sport doesn't mean that the goal of it is to hurt or concuss the opponent. In most contact sports, there will always be injuries but no one goes into them with the intentions of hurting someone to the point where they won't live a normal life.
Take a look at the Ali-Holmes fight, Larry Holmes knew that Ali was hurting which is why he stopped hitting Ali with all his power in the later rounds.
posted by BornIcon at 02:59 PM on January 11, 2010
Just because boxing is a combat sport doesn't mean that the goal of it is to hurt or concuss the opponent. In most contact sports, there will always be injuries but no one goes into them with the intentions of hurting someone to the point where they won't live a normal life.
I do not think that anyone is suggesting that there is an intent to hurt someone to the point where he/she cannot live a normal life. But the fact is, in boxing the goal is to "knock out" the opponent, which is most commonly done with blows to the head. Whereas in other sports like hockey, football, rugby, etc., concussions may be incidental to the regular game action a physical sport, in boxing the most optimal way to prevail is to deliberately give the opponent a concussion and knock him/her out of the match. It is in the DNA of the sport.
That Holmes was farsighted and kindhearted enough to take it easy on Ali in later rounds is beside the point; Ali was where he was physically by that point in his career and is where he is today as a result of repeated and sustained blows to the head that are part and parcel of (and one of the objectives) boxing.
posted by holden at 03:14 PM on January 11, 2010
Just because boxing is a combat sport doesn't mean that the goal of it is to hurt or concuss the opponent.
While I understand that boxers may not be trying to kill their opponent, they most certainly are trying to hurt them. The only way a boxer scores points is to land punches. Even body shots take a toll on a boxer. The head shots most definitely are meant to cause enough trama to the opponent that they lose consciousness, at least momentarily.
posted by dviking at 03:42 PM on January 11, 2010
In boxing the entire point is to hurt your opponent by hitting them as hard as you can. Yes, the intent is not there to maim them in most cases (I am absolutely certain there are boxers out there who do have that intent), but you're certainly trying to fuck them up so much they drop to the canvas.
I love boxing, MMA etc... But I grow weary of this notion that boxing is somehow noble in any way.
You're trying to beat the other guy senseless. End of story.
Whereas in MMA you can win a fight without landing a single blow.
posted by Drood at 04:15 PM on January 11, 2010
That Holmes was farsighted and kindhearted enough to take it easy on Ali in later rounds is beside the point;
Really? I would think that someone making the point you're making would think this was entirely the point. If the goal of the sport is to batter your opponent unconscious, well, the example given is certainly a poor one. Holmes didn't do that.
There is plenty of room in combat sports for sportsmanship, as there is room in other sports for combat.
I think boxing is just about as bad as you can get from a inevitability perspective, but it's also just such a classic, complicated and true sporting test. I can't really support a ban, or the like.
You're trying to beat the other guy senseless. End of story.
Whereas in MMA you can win a fight without landing a single blow.
In some respects, yes, but in boxing you can also win by making the other guy miss. You can't really do that in MMA, which rewards aggression to a greater degree. I think MMA is safer, but it's not so cut and dried all the time.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:38 PM on January 11, 2010
Really? I would think that someone making the point you're making would think this was entirely the point. If the goal of the sport is to batter your opponent unconscious, well, the example given is certainly a poor one. Holmes didn't do that.
There is plenty of room in combat sports for sportsmanship, as there is room in other sports for combat.
Maybe I should have been more clear. Holmes was fighting a legend who was clearly compromised and, thus, I believe his actions were somewhat anomalous. Just because a boxer does not always seek to knock his opponent unconscious does not mean that that is not the typical goal of a boxing match. Even allowing for the fact that many (or even most) boxers adjust their tactics to account for overmatched and out-of-sorts opponents on a fairly regular basis, those compromised opponents get to the "out-of-sorts" stage presumably as a result of taking a beating in earlier rounds (i.e., being punched by an opponent trying to knock them out) or (as in the case of Ali) earlier in their careers. I am not proposing a ban of boxing and am happy to let the "sweet science" folks hold on to their mythologizing, but I stand by the (admittedly) reductionistic proposition that boxing can be summarized as a sport in which the intent is, by and large, to concuss your opponent.
posted by holden at 06:01 PM on January 11, 2010
In some respects, yes, but in boxing you can also win by making the other guy miss
Technically, that is not correct. You have to land punches to score points. Sure defense is scored in matches, however it's given very low priority, and if one truly threw zero punches they'd lose on hits, aggressiveness, and almost certainly ring generalship (hard to control a fight if you don't throw a punch), thus losing the round.
I also am not calling for any ban on boxing, just want to call it for what it is. They're the gladiators of our time, and gladiators have never fared well long term.
posted by dviking at 11:40 PM on January 11, 2010
I just don't look at boxing as this inhumane sports where the athletes can never live a normal life after their careers are over. Sure, there are some that stay in the sport way too long but that happens in most sports, not just in boxing. I have always looked of boxing as an art, the precision and accuracy that entails to be a successful boxer isn't something that most fighters have right away and it takes skill, years of hard work and dedication just to be that good and only a few can make the claim of being one of the great ones.
That reminds me, has anyone seen the film Tyson? If you have not, try your best into seeing it and witnessing the life of one of the greatest and feared heavyweight champions to ever step in the ring. It honestly blew me away.
posted by BornIcon at 09:42 AM on January 12, 2010
I just don't look at boxing as this inhumane sport ...
I challenge you to read The Shame of Boxing, Jack Newfield's 2001 expose of the sport for The Nation. You'll never look the same way at the sport again.
posted by rcade at 10:42 AM on January 12, 2010
I challenge you to read The Shame of Boxing..
No need for a challenge, I read it back in 2002 when one of my friends recommended it but that hasn't changed my mind about the sport of boxing. I also read Game of Shadows and that didn't change my opinion about Barry Bonds, just the game itself but that's just me.
You could even read about the behind the scenes of horse racing and see what actually goes on and also what happens to the horses that get hurt but that's not going to stop any of these sports from continuing.
posted by BornIcon at 11:11 AM on January 12, 2010
... but that hasn't changed my mind about the sport of boxing.
That suggests to me your mind isn't open to change on that point. I find the sport exceptionally cruel to its participants and stopped following it many years ago.
posted by rcade at 11:27 AM on January 12, 2010
You could even read about the behind the scenes of horse racing and see what actually goes on and also what happens to the horses that get hurt but that's not going to stop any of these sports from continuing.
I could even point out you're begging the question, but that's never stopped you before. I do admire your ability to get a feel for the horse's perspective by wearing blinders 24/7.
posted by yerfatma at 11:39 AM on January 12, 2010
That suggests to me your mind isn't open to change on that point.
If I wasn't open minded, why would I even take the time out to read someone else's perspective on a subject if I wasn't truly interested?
I do admire your ability to get a feel for the horse's perspective by wearing blinders 24/7.
People that live in glass houses...
posted by BornIcon at 11:59 AM on January 12, 2010
I grew up a boxing fan, but I've been running from the reality of the sport for a long time. The last year or so, I've found myself less and less willing to watch.
Watching boxing given me some small, good things. Something to watch with my dad. Occasionally, unrivaled theater--a stage on which amazing stories of courage and skill played out.
But it has taken too much from its contestants to justify any further admiration. Even if all the problems in the Harper's article were fixed, it would still be merely brutal. Watching it makes me complicit in the acts it sanctions.
So: goodbye, boxing . . .
posted by Uncle Toby at 02:42 PM on January 12, 2010
People who live in glass houses...
...dangle more than just chandeliers.
posted by Hugh Janus at 11:58 PM on January 12, 2010
I have long suspected this. And, Holmes claims he took it easy on Ali in the late rounds, think how much worse that beating could have been.
I still wish Ali had retired after the second Spinks fight. And knowing what we know now, maybe earlier.