11/17/24
August 18, 2006
MLB is holding a Hometown Hero ballot for each franchise.: The press release lists all of MLB's selected candidates. Thought we could post our thoughts here on who we would pick, and who were the most glaring omissions from the ballot.
posted by BullpenPro to fantasy at 10:53 AM - 28 comments
Comments off the top of my head: Toronto Blue Jays: If Joe Carter gets more votes than Dave Steib, I'll be damn pissed. Seattle Mariners: I'll be disappointed if Ichiro beats Ken Griffey Jr, but I won't be surprised. Washington Nationals: I'm pretty sure Gary Carter and Rusty Staub never played for Washington. /snark Chicago WhiteSox: I'm positive Frank Thomas won't win, and that's a shame. San Francisco Giants: Bonds vs Mays should be interesting. Since it's SF fans doing the voting, it could be close. New York Yankees: No Derek Jeter to vote for, therefore Ruth will probably win. St. Louis Cardinals: This ballot is probably the toughest one to predict. Musial/Smith/Pujols is going to be close. Boston Red Sox: Next to the Yankees ballot, this is the best collection of talent on any ballot. I'm surprised that Rice got listed instead of Wade Boggs. Notable players not on ANY ballots: Mark McGwire (neither As nor Cardinals) Greg Maddux (neither Cubs nor Braves) Sammy Sosa (Cubs) Walter Johnson (defunct team) Notable players listed on more than one ballot: Frank Robinson (Reds and Orioles) Nolan Ryan (Rangers and Astros) Notable players listed on the wrong ballot: Wade Boggs (Devil Rays instead of Red Sox?!) Least games played for team and still on ballot (other than Washington): Todd Stottlemyre (Arizona, 30 games) Note: I really think this would have been a pretty good FPP because of the discussion it would have produced.
posted by grum@work at 11:40 AM on August 18, 2006
Here's my list of selections, with glaring omissions in parens: A's: Rickey Henderson (Al Simmons) Angels: Nolan Ryan (Nolan Ryan) Astros: Jeff Bagwell (Lance Berkman) Blue Jays: Carlos Delgado (Carlos Delgado) Braves: Hank Aaron (tie: Greg Maddux/Eddie Mathews) Brewers: Robin Yount (Teddy Higuera) Cardinals: Albert Pujols (Rogers Hornsby) Cubs: Cap Anson (Cap Anson) Devil Rays: Carl Crawford (tie Rocco Baldelli/Scott Kazmir) Diamondbacks: Randy Johnson (there have to be 200 guys better than Todd Stottlemyre -- Curt Schilling? Brandon Webb?) Dodgers: Jackie (tie: Mike Piazza/Don Drysdale) Giants: Christy Mathewson (tie: Christy Mathewson/Carl Hubbell) Indians: Tris Speaker (Addie Joss) Mariners: Ichiro (Randy Johnson) Marlins: Dontrelle Willis (Miguel Cabrera) Mets: Tom Seaver (tie: Jerry Koosman/Ed Kranepool) Nationals: Vlad Guerrero (Vlad Guerrero Brian Schneider?) Orioles: Jim Palmer (Boog Powell) Padres: Tony Gwynn (tie: Ken Caminiti/Eric Show) Phillies: Mike Schmidt (Grover Cleveland Alexander) Pirates: Honus Wagner (tie: Dock Ellis/Jason Bay) Rangers: Jim Sundberg (Toby Harrah) Red Sox: Ted Williams (tie: Manny/Ortiz/Jimmy Foxx) Reds: Frank Robinson (Bucky Walters)* Rockies: Todd Helton (Ellis Burks) Royals: George Brett (Steve Balboni) Tigers: Ty Cobb (Hal Newhouser) Twins: Walter Johnson (Walter Freakin' Johnson) White Sox: Eddie Collins (Eddie Collins) Yankees: Babe Ruth (Yep, Derek Jeter) *Pete Rose is on my ineligible list.
posted by BullpenPro at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2006
Grum: I was a little timid to go with a press release as an FPP, particularly right in the face of the new guidelines. If somebody wants to move it there, no problem, but it ain't gonna be me. Hopefully the conversation in here will be just as good.
posted by BullpenPro at 11:55 AM on August 18, 2006
I think the conversation in here will probably be better. I'm don't think that some current players should recieve the amount of votes that they undoubtably will recieve, regardless of how well they've played. My biggest issue is Albert Pujols. While he has played extremely well for a few seasons, the Cardinals haven't won a single World Series in that time, and have only won the NLCS once. Ichiro is another example. However, just like the All Star Game, this will just end up to be one huge popularity contest, instead of a vote to find true hometown heros. However, in the case of expansion teams, the list is primarily composed of current players since there isn't really any retired greats. Wade Boggs shouldn't be on the Devil Rays ballot as well. As for Jeter, sorry BP but he doesn't come close when you compare him to the other names on that list. Say what you want, but guys like Dimaggio, Ruth, and Gerhig weren't only hometown heros, they were national heros. Against them I don't think Jeter can compare.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:07 PM on August 18, 2006
Grum: Walter Johnson wasn't on a now-defunct team. He was on the Twins. As far as I can tell Washington Senators:Minnesota Twins::Brooklyn Dodgers:Los Angeles Dodgers, etc. The MLB guys blew it big time on that one. YYM: I listed an "omission" for each team, but not in all cases did I actually think the person I named should have been on the ballot. Addie Joss is a good candidate for the Indians, but he probably doesn't belong ahead of the five guys that are there. Jeter will easily go down as a top-10 guy in Yankee lore when all is said and done, but no, I don't put him ahead of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMag or Mantle. Berra? Maybe. Ask me in another six rings. Some of these picks though... I mean, Christy Freakin' Mathewson... c'MON, guys. Juan Marichal is the third best pitcher in Giants history (at best), and there is a character element to this ballot (which I used at my own discretion -- Ty Cobb stays on, I don't care how many kittens he kicked), which knocks Marichal down in the event of a tie with anyone but Pete Rose and Carl Mays. (Now that I think of it, Ray Chapman is a pretty big omission from the Indians' list. If that franchise ever had a history-defining moment, it was when they had a hitter killed in the batter's box. Herb Score works, as well.) I also think it's interesting that Pete Rose appears on the Reds ballot, but Joe Jackson does not appear on the Sox's. Jackson is a glaring omission, but only if you think Rose belongs on, which I do not.
posted by BullpenPro at 12:33 PM on August 18, 2006
All I have to say is thank god I'm not a Devil Rays fan. Do you think MLB made that list and considered telling them they'd have to wait to have a hometown hero? Awful. Wade Boggs - Just over 700 AB. Now, I realize one of those provided his 3000th hit and it must have been exhilarating but I'd be fairly confident (without researching) that the Rays probably lost that game. Sure he may be a great player but not for the D-Rays. Carl Crawford - May grow into a hometown hero and he's certainly the closest thing they've got, but he's in his fourth season. Roberto Hernandez - O.K. I looked at this and thought "El Duque pitched for the D-Rays?" Oh, right...different Hernandez. This guy was actually a pretty effective relief pitcher. Saved 41% of all of TB's wins over three years. The fact I couldn't remember him hurts though. Aubrey Huff - Such a hometown hero...they had to trade him this season. Off the list. Fred McGriff - 3 seasons, just shy of 100HR. Once starred in a very popular series of instructional videos. That last fact gives him my vote.
posted by YukonGold at 12:34 PM on August 18, 2006
Some of these are easy, some of these are damn hard. Braves? Twins? Cardinals? Reds? White Sox? Yankees? - Tough ones. Blue Jays? Delgado, Stieb or Alomar Rest of them seem pretty straightforward. Good move by MLB. These are the kind of things that keep baseball fans up at night.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:37 PM on August 18, 2006
Some of these are easy, some of these are damn hard. Is it harder or easier when you look at your own team? When I look at the Twins I see some great names but I don't have the connection with who they were game in game out. "Hometown Hero" seems like it should have a deeper meaning than "Greatest Ever". Take me with the Red Sox... Cy Young - siyonara. You have a season ending award already and I don't think anyone really identifies you with Boston. That's why I'd replace him with and vote for Pedro Martinez. I think it's a glaring omission because, unlike Roger, I feel like Pedro will always be a part of Boston. Every night he pitched it was a holiday, you left work early, made sure the restaraunt you ate at had a view of the T.V., you faked an illness just to watch him. Not the team. HIM! Roger's got the 20k games, Pedro has Game 5 of the 99 ALDS. The latter and 2004 makes him a hero to me. I can't speak for the entire fan base because a lot of people will say that his "antics" detract from his aura but they were never an issue to me. In time David Ortiz may surpass that and although I'm too young to really remember, Yaz is the guy I identify with being a "Hometown Hero". Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever, but is it the same?
posted by YukonGold at 01:13 PM on August 18, 2006
as a side note (and it's appropriate that we're off the FPP)... This is the kind of thing I want SpoFi to be all the time. There are so many LR posts about the nonsense on the front page, with so very few legitimate ways to curtail anyone's frustration. But this kind of topic that (if you can avoid YOUR TEAM SUCKS...whihc should be pretty safe here and not so much in the other venue) is so great in the locker room. No right answers, no bullshit. It can be fun and funny and not have to solve the steroid issue. So many times I just want to open a discussion, no earthshattering reporting involved just topical conversation. This kinda does that for me. Awesome post BP.
posted by YukonGold at 01:19 PM on August 18, 2006
Wow. You've gone and made it really complicated. I can't see how it could be anyone but Teddy Ballgame for the Red Sox. Isn't this basically a vote for your franchise's supposed best player - the player that most represents the franchise? My criteria are simple: He had to play there for the majority of his career. There is no doubt what hat he'd wear in the Hall of Fame (it's a good criterion - no Clemens). He had to have his best years there - and those best years have to be among the best the franchise has seen (provided the above two criteria are met) He has to be really fucking good and the best player on the team during his tenure. So - Red Sox = Splinter.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:23 PM on August 18, 2006
Walter Johnson wasn't on a now-defunct team. He was on the Twins. As far as I can tell Washington Senators:Minnesota Twins::Brooklyn Dodgers:Los Angeles Dodgers, etc. But does everyone count the Senators as Twins like I do? Don't some people count the Senators as Rangers, or does that only apply to the Senators that played there post-1961? I always count the Senators/Twins as the same franchise, but maybe not everyone does. For the listed guys I would have to go: 1) Killebrew, 2) Puckett, 3) Carew, 4) Oliva, and 5) Hrbek. It is really hard to do for the top two guys, Killebrew and Puckett, because Puckett was absolutely worshipped here in Minnesota. The closest Killebrew came to winning the WS was in 1965, but Puckett was on two title winning teams. A game (for Puckett) like Game 6 of the 1991 WS can really go along ways toward making legendary status.
posted by chris2sy at 01:47 PM on August 18, 2006
Yeah, I totally hear you on Williams. I think the difference in age plays a big factor for me. Teddy isn't like Babe Ruth, where it doesn't matter that you never saw him...you just know how awesome he was because of the associated folklore. Williams kinda flies under the radar. DiMaggio was bigger and stole the spotlight, plus the Red Sox never won. The story of him and hitting .406 because he didn't sit out the second game of the doubleheader on the final day is his greatest story. I used your criteria on Pedro (he passes 1 & 2, by my estimation...3 & 4 without question) so I'll say it a three horse race - Ted, Yaz, Pedro.
posted by YukonGold at 02:20 PM on August 18, 2006
Oh, right...different Hernandez. This guy was actually a pretty effective relief pitcher. You don't remember the dude who bodyslammed Brian Daubach? My vote would go to Yaz. I love Ted Williams, he's on the short list with Joe Strummer and a few others for Guys I Love, but his peerlessness, the unreal, cliched storylines (fighter pilot, big game fisher, HR in last at bat) and the aloofness resulting from his shyness and the media's hatred keep him apart for me. Yaz played all those games, carried the team to a Series and seemed like a man of the people. He seems only like a demi-god, whereas Williams is Pantheon material. If that makes sense at all. Plus I cried like a baby (an 8 year-old one) when he retired.
posted by yerfatma at 02:25 PM on August 18, 2006
I got that beat. I cried when Willie Upshaw retired. I liked the way the PA guy annouced his at bats. Now batting, 1st base, number 8 Williiiiiiiiiie UP-Shawwwwww.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:10 PM on August 18, 2006
I cried when Craig Grebeck retired. Lil' Hurt forever!
posted by YukonGold at 03:17 PM on August 18, 2006
Walter Johnson wasn't on a now-defunct team. He was on the Twins. As far as I can tell Washington Senators:Minnesota Twins::Brooklyn Dodgers:Los Angeles Dodgers, etc. Good point. I blanked on that because they didn't keep the city location OR the team name when they switched. He would be in the same boat as Gary Carter and the Washington Nationals.
posted by grum@work at 03:48 PM on August 18, 2006
I feel like Pedro will always be a part of Boston. Every night he pitched it was a holiday, you left work early, made sure the restaraunt you ate at had a view of the T.V., you faked an illness just to watch him. Not the team. HIM! I am not even a Red Sox fan and my best friend and I used to try our damnedest to catch the games he was pitching in that were televised nationally, or when he was playing against our Indians.
posted by jojomfd1 at 07:45 PM on August 18, 2006
You must have fond memories of that '99 ALDS game then.
posted by yerfatma at 09:26 PM on August 18, 2006
Not so fond after the second game actually.
posted by jojomfd1 at 12:50 AM on August 19, 2006
Yukon, your Williams/Pedro issue reveals the inherent problem with (and, really, the silliness in) this exercise. It's really just measuring the depth of fans' nostalgia. Are you nostalgic enough to vote for somebody you never even saw, just know about from word of mouth (maybe from your dad/uncle/grandfather)? If you look at my picks, some of them the casual fan probably never even heard of -- Eddie Collins, Cap Anson, etc. Looking at the MLB ballot, to me it seems pointed at our dads' generation, the ones who watched through the '40s - '70s era. That would explain the omission of the REALLY old guys that nobody saw (Mathewson, Big Train) and some of those more recent (Jeter, Maddux, Manny). It does not, however, explain how Jim Abbott and Chuck Finley bumped Nolan Ryan from the Angels ballot. Dazzling. So many times I just want to open a discussion, no earthshattering reporting involved just topical conversation. This kinda does that for me. I'm in your sidecar, Yukon. Yaz played all those games, carried the team to a Series and seemed like a man of the people. He seems only like a demi-god Yaz breezed into Cooperstown just before Carlton Fisk's induction ceremony. He was introduced onto the stage with the inductees and other living Hall of Famers, then in the middle of the ceremony, he sneaked out the back of the stage and ordered a limo stocked with beer to take him home. He never heard a word of Fisk's speech. Great ballplayer. Not quite "Brooks Robinson" classy. (Though "missing Fisk's speech" was definitely an enviable place to be that day.)
posted by BullpenPro at 09:51 AM on August 19, 2006
I'm not sure if you were trying to knock him down a notch in my eyes or not, but that story certainly doesn't. A limo stocked with beer? Yes please. (off to get lunch to avoid the Fox shit promo)
posted by yerfatma at 12:01 PM on August 19, 2006
I'm not too worried about how you feel about Yaz. I was just giving my reaction to the "man of the people" title. Nobody wants to be in that limo stocked with beer more than me. I think most people would have at least sat in for a few sentences of their buddy's speech before taking off. Your mileage may vary. Just sharing a story, and I suppose with it my own view of the man. (You're missing a classic interview with Captain Clutch.)
posted by BullpenPro at 12:16 PM on August 19, 2006
Yaz is a complete blindspot for me, one of those guys where, if you told me he demanded a carpet of infants to make an entrance, I'd change my mind on carpets of infants. Almost worth another awful Josh Beckett first to see A-Rod in a DP. If you know what I mean. I don't even dislike A-Rod all that much, but that was a situation tailor-made for getting the monkey off his back. And I can't have that. I still see "Boston Massacre" headlines in my future. And Tim McCarver just used up all the good feeling I had for him after he complained about the Jeter bunt (whoops, Joe) by saying Randy Johnson has "benefited from his run support this year".
posted by yerfatma at 12:44 PM on August 19, 2006
Yaz is a complete blindspot for me, one of those guys where, if you told me he demanded a carpet of infants to make an entrance, I'd change my mind on carpets of infants. I just totally can't relate to that. Does anybody move the runner from second to third in the first inning against a pitcher with a 5+ ERA who leads the majors in HRs allowed better than Derek Jeter. He is simply awesome. that was a situation tailor-made for getting the monkey off his back. And I can't have that. I don't know what monkey you are talking about. You would think that A-Rod could beat the runner by more than half a step on those slow rollers. He just doesn't seem to have the courage to charge the ball hard. On edit: McCarver isn't watching the same game I am. I just know it. Posada wasn't in the batter's box OR in fair territory. He was standing in foul territory when the ball hit him. Moron.
posted by BullpenPro at 01:25 PM on August 19, 2006
It does not, however, explain how Jim Abbott and Chuck Finley bumped Nolan Ryan from the Angels ballot. Dazzling. How many ballots does Ryan get to be on? Isn't two enough for now? Does anybody move the runner from second to third in the first inning against a pitcher with a 5+ ERA who leads the majors in HRs allowed better than Derek Jeter. He is simply awesome. I was flabbergasted that the bunt happened. I was even more flabbergasted when the announcer AGREED with my mental comment that it was a bad idea, and actually gave a semi-intelligent reason why (taking the bat out of Jeter's hands against a guy who was struggling).
posted by grum@work at 10:48 PM on August 19, 2006
I don't have a problem with Ryan on three ballots. He had career enough for three players, and the strikeouts to match. Here's how I would break them all down, rated on difficulty. Easy: Blue Jays:Carter (sorry, it's not just Toronto fans who get to vote); Braves: Aaron; Brewers: Yount; Cubs: Banks; Indians: Feller (he's the only one still alive); Nationals: Carter; Padres: Gwynn; Pirates: Clemente; Rangers: Ryan; Red Sox: Williams (previous debate notwithstanding - again, it's not just Red Sox fans voting); Royals: Brett; Yankees: Ruth Two horse race (my guess first): Astros: Biggio/Bagwell; Devil Rays: McGriff/Crawford; Diamondbacks: Gonzalez/Johnson; Giants: Mays/Bonds; Mets: Seaver/Piazza; Orioles: Ripken/B. Robinson; Twins: Puckett/Killebrew Three horse race (in order of finish): Cardinals: Musial/Pujols/Smith; Mariners: Edgar Martinez/Ichiro/Griffey; Marlins: Conine/Castillo/Beckett; Phillies: Schmidt/Carlton/Ashburn; Reds: Rose/Bench/Morgan Anybody's game: Angels: this is the worst ballot of the bunch. It's missing Brian Downing, Bobby Grich, Nolan Ryan, Frank Tanana. In my mind, only Carew belongs on this ballot, but he won't win. I'm going with Salmon. A's: Brutal. I have no idea how this will go. Everyone on the list I identify as much or more with another team. Three of them have a core of fans who actively don't like them. I will go with Hunter here, but I wouldn't be surprised by any except Grove. Dodgers: This one actually isn't that tough -- almost certainly it will be Jackie. But it will hurt, really HURT, many balloters that they have to pick just one. All mega-popular players. Rockies: I have no idea. Helton and Walker are the only legitimately great players, but Bichette was the guy that, to me, epitomized the Blake Street Bombers. And Galaragga is just generally very popular, cancer survivor and all. I'm going to guess Walker because of the MVP Award, but I wouldn't be surprised by anybody. Except maybe Vinnie Castilla. Tigers: This vote will be very telling as far as the mindset and age demographic of the voters. I don't think Gehringer has a prayer, but then it's down to three great guys who were crazy popular in their eras, and the best player of the bunch who is generally regarded as a tremendous jerk. If Cobb doesn't get it, Greenberg is the next best player, but I don't know if enough voters will identify with him. Kaline is a Hall of Famer that a lot of voters will have seen, but more voters will have seen Trammell. I'm going to say Cobb/Kaline/Trammell/Greenberg/Gehringer. But I hope it's close. And a small part of me hopes I'm wrong. White Sox: I just flat out have no idea. Will the voters even remember the Go-Go White Sox? No Aparicio? Appling is the most deserving of the bunch, but he probably won't win. Probably Thomas. (Sorry this is so long. Like Yukon, I just love these discussions.)
posted by BullpenPro at 08:15 AM on August 23, 2006
I was flabbergasted that the bunt happened. Sincerely, I think Jeter reinjured his right thumb during the previous series. He wasn't turning on any pitches -- I think all of his hits were opposite field. I believe he felt a bunt was his best chance to get on base in that situation, and at worst he'd move the runner over. It's a bad play if he's healthy, but less so if he's having trouble swinging the bat.
posted by BullpenPro at 08:24 AM on August 23, 2006
Detroit Tigers: Hank Greenberg Chicago Cubs: Ernie Banks (though I wouldn't mind seeing Ron Santo win)