11/05/24
February 15, 2004
Ask Spofi: How would a salary cap be initiated in baseball? I understand after the current bargaining agreement would have to expire. Who initiates such a thing? Could this ever happen? The luxury tax thing isn't working. Some teams have a small budget. Some have a larger budget. And some have no budget at all.
posted by jerseygirl to navel gazing at 10:59 PM - 26 comments
I'm not concerned about the Red Sox in this instance. It's more a case of where is baseball heading when an owner with unlimited budget can just keep paying the tax and upping his payroll by 20m each year? yes, boston is big spending, but really no more guilty than the mets, dodgers, etc. its not as if the red sox are spending anything astronomically out of range than any other team. boston, nym, dodgers seem to have some limit at which they must stop spending - be it their own pocketbook or the threat of mounting luxury taxes. While boston, nym, dodgers are all hovering around the same general amount (can't find the 2004 figures yet), nyy is way ahead of everyone else and ramped up their payroll by nearly 20m again this season. (i believe the red sox are somewhere around 122m or that was the goal).
posted by jerseygirl at 11:54 PM on February 15, 2004
Jerseygirl, your salary link is very interesting. I thought the top three or four teams were much closer in payroll. I plotted the numbers on a scatter chart, and all I can say is wow... 
posted by dusted at 12:49 AM on February 16, 2004
What makes the Yankees able to sustain a $200 million payroll and other teams unable?
posted by dusted at 12:57 AM on February 16, 2004
The Dodgers, including guestimating the Gagne arbitration, are up to $93.5 million, which is way less then the $109.2 million that link suggested. The new owner says he wants atleast a $100 million payroll, but I do not seeing that happen anytime soon.
posted by jasonspaceman at 06:52 AM on February 16, 2004
What makes the Yankees able to sustain a $200 million payroll and other teams unable? Local television....
posted by smithers at 08:03 AM on February 16, 2004
MLB will fold over and die before there is a salry cap. The MLBPA is one of the most powerful unions in the world and i can't see them agreeing to it under any circumstances. IMHO, there is zero possibility of any sort of salary cap for baseball. i am a believer in the luxury tax. though i don't think it's the reason why we've seen the market for players start to correct itself. the yankees front office will use whatever means it has with their wallet to obtain players without regard to financial ramifications. there's nothing anyone could do under any rules that will change that attitude. they're willing to pay ten-fold to uphold that philosophy. spending doesn't equal winning, though it does give *some* advantages if used correctly. and obviously the yankees have used that advantage wisely. there are more failures than successes however, as we've seen on the mets and dodgers spending unwisely is the quickest way for a team to remain a loser for a prolonged period without any meens to dig out of that hole. couple all of that with the success of low/no budget franchises and the continued correction of salaries and i see baseball as just fine. front offices are looking for discrepencies in the market on so many different levels with successful results that when compared to the yankees it seems like they are playing a different game, but the reality of the last few years has suggested the complete opposite.
posted by oliver_crunk at 10:07 AM on February 16, 2004
the link was last years numbers, jasonspaceman.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:13 AM on February 16, 2004
It's more a case of where is baseball heading when an owner with unlimited budget can just keep paying the tax and upping his payroll by 20m each year? This isn't about one owner. The Red Sox are part of the problem as well. As are my Mets, the Dodgers an others. Its not as if the red sox are spending anything astronomically out of range than any other team. Huh? Of course they are. I get the sentiment, but this strikes me as... well, I don't know. Sour grapes? Blinded by loyalty? I don't know. It just rings hollow to single out the Yanks, especially if I pretend I'm a Brewers or Pirates fan.
posted by 86 at 11:01 AM on February 16, 2004
Its not as if the red sox are spending anything astronomically out of range than any other team. Huh? Of course they are. No they aren't. They are right in the same range as the Dodgers, Mets, etc. This isn't to say that they aren't part of it, but "astronomically out of range" is spending 200m when the next in the pack are spending 75, 85, 95 million less, as demonstrated in dusted's scatter chart. now granted, all we can go on is last year's numbers and speculation on this year's payroll, as everything is still in flux. but the difference is glaring.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:21 AM on February 16, 2004
I get the sentiment, but this strikes me as... well, I don't know. Sour grapes? Blinded by loyalty? I don't know. It just rings hollow to single out the Yanks, especially if I pretend I'm a Brewers or Pirates fan. i figured it would come off as such. i was even apprehensive to bring it up because people would either dismiss it as knee jerk sour grapes reaction to the Yankees in general or specific "soreness" about the NYY getting ARod. However, it's a timely question/discussion, so i thought i had nothing to really lose by purposely throwing myself under the train on this one for the sake of discussion and conversation.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:25 AM on February 16, 2004
I was just reding Gammons. "Boston's payroll is 20 percent higher than 28 other teams." Twenty-eight. What's the problem again? Oh, that's right, it's all about the Yankees?!?! The real issue is about haves and have-nots, not have-mores versus have-lots.
posted by 86 at 11:28 AM on February 16, 2004
And jg, I had similar apprehension about calling you out on this. I like you, I like your posts. I like your passion. I love your thoughts and opinions. But I'm trying really hard not to just laugh at this. The Red Sox are Yankee-low-carb for pete's sake. They have a roster of All-stars, mostly bought on the open market. To not include them with the Yankees relative to the rest of the league is silly. Do you think the system is fixed if the Yankees and the Red Sox have equal pay-rolls?
posted by 86 at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2004
I think things are fixed if there's a basement established and a ceiling established for all of baseball payroll. Maybe I'm being naive and simple, but that sounds like a good solution to me at first glance. Again, I don't know much about how these things come about, so that's partially why I started the thread. A good thing that has happened recently: lower-cost teams have been winning ultimately at the end of the season. that's terrific news, but it's only a matter of time before a big payroll team takes over and runs with it for a long time. is it fair to anyone? no. is it good for baseball? absolutely not. if the Baltimore Orioles can suddenly afford to pay a 500m payroll (exaggerating for the sake of making a point) and no one can keep up with them economically, what's the point of playing anymore? What's the point of showing up? Does anyone else see it going in this direction, be it the Red Sox, the Yankees or the Mets or whomever? I don't kid myself, I know that Boston spends an extraordinary amount of money and isn't that far off from NY. The Red Sox do it, and still yes, they aren't the only ones doing it. So back to the original questions at hand: How would a salary cap be initiated in baseball? I understand after the current bargaining agreement would have to expire. Who initiates such a thing? Could this ever happen?.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:12 PM on February 16, 2004
In short, it's not likely with the power of the player's association. I suppose the next best thing would be to make the taxes heavier. I don't understand how the Mets, Red Sox, Los Angeles, Texas, Atlanta, St. Louis, San Francisco weren't taxed with the salaries that they had last year.
posted by 86 at 01:25 PM on February 16, 2004
How would a salary cap be initiated in baseball? With great difficulty.
posted by rocketman at 01:29 PM on February 16, 2004
But JG, the Yankees have been seriously outspending everyone for years but haven't won a series lately while the low budget teams have. Will a 10% increase this year (which is how I read the numbers at this point) really make that much of a difference? I'm thinking of the dePodesta article of a couple of days ago and similar 'post modern' analytical methods which the Yankees (who admittedly I would choose over the Bosox any day of any week) seem to be ignoring too.
posted by billsaysthis at 01:29 PM on February 16, 2004
especially if I pretend I'm a Brewers or Pirates fan. You have no idea how cold it is out here.
posted by rocketman at 01:35 PM on February 16, 2004
You have no idea how cold it is out here. Have you tried an Expos hat, recently? Isn't my team that last, isolated dot at the end of the scatter chart? Brrrrrrrrrrrrr...
posted by qbert72 at 06:12 PM on February 16, 2004
qbert72, I thought it was interesting that the payrolls formed a fairly straight line, with the exception of the Yankees and Expos. All I can say is je suis désolé.
posted by dusted at 06:42 PM on February 16, 2004
Oh, according to jgirl's link, that's the Devil Rays alone at the bottom. So I can cuddle up with Brewers and Royals fans for a little bit of heat.
posted by qbert72 at 07:36 PM on February 16, 2004
Dammit, we need an editor in this place. If the radio guys can have stats handed to them by a lackey, why can't we?
posted by dusted at 07:40 PM on February 16, 2004
jg: have you read Costas' book on the issue? Worth a read for any serious fan concerned about the health of the sport. He discusses the issue in enough detail that I don't really feel comfortable recapping, but both caps and ceilings (so that the total spent on salaries could even /rise/) are a key part of his proposed solution.
I feel it's really quite important to the future of the game- the reality is that most fans of most teams feel pretty hopeless for their teams, on opening day. Even Bengals fans have hope for the first 1/4 of the season in the NFL. Baseball is in serious danger of having real fans in only 4 or 5 megalopolises, and every other year a small, brief bandwagon somewhere else- and if that happens it will slowly, surely, kill the game completely.
posted by tieguy at 09:12 PM on February 16, 2004
Yes the Yankees have had their struggles in the Series, but they have been in 6 of the last 8 of them. They aren't assured a championship with their payroll but they are assured 100+ wins, a spot in the ALCS at least, and virtually a lock for the series. Just as bad in my opinion. Some kind of deal needs to get some competitive balance back into baseball. I'm not talking the diluted free-for-all parity that is the NFL, but at least SOME guesswork at the beginning of the season would be nice.
posted by pivo at 09:29 PM on February 16, 2004
pivo, the parity in football is mostly a result of a smaller sample size (16 games versus 162) increasing randomness. In other words, a lot hangs on one game. And I don't believe there is ever too much parity.
posted by dusted at 11:40 PM on February 16, 2004
Have you tried an Expos hat, recently? Hey, Bud owns both our teams.
posted by rocketman at 03:15 PM on February 17, 2004
The only ones interested in a salary cap would be the owners, right? They could try to force a cap into the next bargaining agreement, but before the player's union would ever agree to a cap, they would insist on a minimum payroll. Getting some of the worst owners (especially the Seligs) to agree to that would take some doing. So I can't see it happening. But think of it this way: you could have been an A's fan, watching a team with an enormous payroll (a payroll your team simply cannot match), celebrate on your field, with one of their multimillionaires hitting the deciding home run... In other words, it's been a problem for years and nothing has happened, and the current structure has helped the Sox a lot more than it's hurt them. I'm definitely guilty of some serious schadenfreude now that I get to watch Sox fans calling for a cap.