January 16, 2004

Something to talk about: Two-division SpoFi EPL fantasy league system? To ratchet up the competition and interest, I'm proposing we have a Premier League and Secondary League, with promotion of the top Secondary League teams and relegation of the bottom Premier League teams. Yay or nay? How would we make it work? Let's punt this around.

posted by worldcup2002 to navel gazing at 04:51 PM - 53 comments

Some logistics questions: 1. Should we relegate teams from the PremierLeague.com fantasy league at the end of this season (PL.com has 30 teams right now, while the yahoo league has 14 -- and some of us play in both)? 2. Do new players have to go into the Secondary league only? 3. Which would be the Premier League and Secondary League? 4. Why has there been so little talk in our EPL fantasy leagues? (Just wanted to make sure you were paying attention.)

posted by worldcup2002 at 04:53 PM on January 16, 2004

Definitely yay!

posted by StarFucker at 07:38 PM on January 16, 2004

Man, we should do this in all the fantasy leagues. Never mind that the other major sports don't have relegation or promotion (they should).

posted by dusted at 08:28 PM on January 16, 2004

I'm up for it but only if I get a spot in the top division in the first year. My ego is too fragile too start in 2nd.

posted by billsaysthis at 11:05 PM on January 16, 2004

sounds like a good idea to keep people sharp, how about we put the new people in Div 2 but we have two promotaions/relegations a season? One mid way (say after Christmas) and the other at the end of the season? New leagues to be set up next season. 3 up 3 down?

posted by kWaCkY at 01:13 AM on January 17, 2004

Based on the turnout this season, we'd have to relegate about ten from the PL.com league to the yahoo league. But first, we'd have to figure out who's playing both leagues. I know I am. And so are the Fooker and Fat Buddha. Who else? I'm proposing the PL.com league be the Premier League (how apropos. the name's the same. ha!) and the yahoo league be the second. However, I'm not sure if relegated players currently in the PL.com would agree to switching. We did bring this on in the mid-season so it may be unfair to them. I wouldn't mind if it happened to me (and it still could!), but I'm not going to talk for everyone else. Also, I'm not sure if there aren't some who wouldn't want to be switched to the PL.com (the promoted ones). kwacky: I'm not keen on relegating/promoting half-way through the season. It puts the newcomers at an obvious disadvantage in each league. Also, I'd rather play a whole season through in the same league, rather than have two sets of rivals in each half of the season. The main things we need to agree on first are; 1. Which league is Premier, which is Secondary (we can rename them later, but the whole point is there is a tiered system)? 2. How many teams in each league? Minus the double-leaguers right now, how many players do we actually have? Will they commit to coming back? Also, what is the promo/relegation cutoff for next season? 3. We need to have commissioners for each league that will be scrupulous about managing entry, since really there's very little barring people from joining, and ejecting newcomers who aren't in on this inside joke will take some real finesse. 4. Do we start relegation/promotion at the end of this season? If yes, we have to work out the cutoff now. Also, see #2, because we have players who play both leagues. If no, no problem. 5. Do we all agree to not taking this too seriously? 6. Finally, what will the trophies look like? Hahahahaha (last season had some real winners).

posted by worldcup2002 at 07:19 PM on January 17, 2004

It all seems unneccesarily complex to me. I'm happy with the Premier League game and have no desire to play Yahoo. I'm sure there are competitors in Yahoo that feel exactly the same but vice versa so to speak. IMHO, if you're going to have two divisions they should both be on the same site and no relegation and promotion issues should be decided until the end of the season. Personally, I'd keep it as it is. I don't see the necessity to change anything.

posted by squealy at 06:25 AM on January 18, 2004

Thats the kind of attitude that really pumps my nads!

posted by StarFucker at 08:18 AM on January 19, 2004

Pumps your nads? Sounds painful, perhaps you should get some ointment for it.

posted by squealy at 11:13 AM on January 19, 2004

SpoFi: Pumps your nads! squealy: Applies ointment on your nads! Hahahahahahahaha.

posted by worldcup2002 at 11:57 AM on January 19, 2004

Heh heh, i don't know where i first heard that...and it still seems strange, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

posted by StarFucker at 01:41 PM on January 19, 2004

a) I'm in both leagues b) Not interested in starting this midseason plus it'd be pretty difficult from a practical standpoint to start now. c) Both divisions need to be on the same board so the rules are consistent. d) Leave my nads out of your nasty mind, you bunch of pervs!

posted by billsaysthis at 02:21 PM on January 20, 2004

c) Both divisions need to be on the same board so the rules are consistent. This makes sense to me. Also, the yahoo site is blocked by the servers at my work, so I wouldn't be able to make changes during, you know, lunch. I don't know if anyone else has this problem. It isn't a real big deal for me. I like the idea of two leagues and promotion/relegation.

posted by eckeric at 10:08 AM on January 21, 2004

I love the idea...

posted by StarFucker at 11:14 AM on January 21, 2004

I kind of like the idea. I would have no problem being on the second tier on an EPL league system. It would allow me to learn the players and teams without being worried about losing by a huge margin by someone who knows a hell of alot more than I do.

posted by jasonspaceman at 12:16 PM on January 21, 2004

Having the two-divisions on the same system (i.e., Premierleague.com) sounds like a capital idea! It actually simplifies it a lot. We could call them SpoFi EPL Div 1 and SpoFi EPL Div 2. Theoretically, we could split the current league in half (at the end of the season) because we have 30 players, but how would we deal with newbies? I guess we could just add them to Div 2. Aside from that, old-timers and purists could continue to play the Yahoo league, too, with no promotion or relegation rigmarole. This seems to tie up all loose ends for me. Shall we go ahead and float the divisional split now (at this season's end, top 15 SpoFi Premierleague.com players create SpoFi EPL Div 1 for next season, bottom 15 and newbies create SpoFi Div 2)?

posted by worldcup2002 at 01:11 PM on January 21, 2004

Let me work on this a bit...i may have some fine tuning that will really make it interesting, yet simple... But i gotta go apply for unemployment right now... Be back later today!

posted by StarFucker at 01:37 PM on January 21, 2004

I'm in.

posted by garfield at 01:45 PM on January 21, 2004

I'm in.

posted by lilnemo at 02:05 PM on January 21, 2004

Cool! I just applied online! I didn't have to go anywhere!! Ah, i can feel the fat growing...

posted by StarFucker at 02:19 PM on January 21, 2004

If you're truly concerned about a lot of newbies showing up, you could split it 20/10 first/second league. And no, I'm not just saying that b/c I'm going to have to fight to get in the top 15 ;).

posted by Ufez Jones at 02:30 PM on January 21, 2004

I'm not concerned about the newbies showing up, just concerned that they understand they need to stay in the 2nd Div! ;-) We'll need some good league commissioners for that. Also, clearer naming might help, something like the SpoFi EPL 2nd & Newbies Division. Names, anyone? SpoFi EPL Premier League (echo in here?!) SpoFi EPL Secondary and Newbies League SpoFi EPL First Division SpoFi EPL Second & Newbies Division SpoFi EPL Pantheon League SpoFi EPL Demigods & Newbies League

posted by worldcup2002 at 03:36 PM on January 21, 2004

SpoFi EPL Pantheon League SpoFi EPL Demigods & Newbies League We have a winner! AS for league commisioners; whomever the prospective commisioner(s) are should have a good understanding of the EPL and the time to run the league. No newbs, no part-timers.

posted by lilnemo at 03:54 PM on January 21, 2004

I just checked, and premierleague.com allows you to "suspend" (boot) teams, so membership control should be OK. Along with a nice word of explanation, of course. And I'm talking about keeping the Demigods & Newbies out of the Pantheon League, of course. Heehee. Also, we should have a SpoFi Sidebar posting with access info and clear explanations about which league to join. OK, now I gotta go back to working on ensuring my standing in next season's Pantheon League.

posted by worldcup2002 at 04:13 PM on January 21, 2004

SpoFi EPL Premier League for StarFucker and Friends SpoFi EPL Second Division Wannabes

posted by StarFucker at 04:13 PM on January 21, 2004

Hah! You can have that name if you win this time. Hahahahahahaha. You wanker!

posted by worldcup2002 at 04:33 PM on January 21, 2004

I'm in and willing to be in either league (I would prefer the newbie league because I am still learning) and wouldn't mind help organizing if you need any help.

posted by jasonspaceman at 05:03 PM on January 21, 2004

Bad enough I'll have to be in the bottom scrum but please leave the word newby out of the name. Too painful.

posted by billsaysthis at 06:44 PM on January 21, 2004

oh you crazy footie guys.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:05 PM on January 21, 2004

crazy footie guys Careful with that phrase; people may get the wrong idea.

posted by lilnemo at 07:35 PM on January 21, 2004

Hey, jerseygirl, where's my wedding invitation!

posted by worldcup2002 at 09:59 PM on January 21, 2004

its... in the mail?

posted by jerseygirl at 10:33 PM on January 21, 2004

Hey worldcup, just one last question. With the nature of the EPL site being as it is, where anyone can pick any player, and all the points being the same, what happens if, say, the winner of the second league outscores the winner of the first. All things are equal, and basically they would've beaten everyone. Catch my drift?

posted by Ufez Jones at 08:58 AM on January 22, 2004

Ahh, now you're taking this way too seriously. If I wanted this to be all real-life accurate-like, we wouldn't be playing "fantasy" would we? I mean, the next question would be, how come the same player can play on 30 different teams at the same time? C'mon, I'm just doing this to ratchet up interest and fun. If we're going to get caught up in details like this, then I think we've missed the point.

posted by worldcup2002 at 09:54 AM on January 22, 2004

Nah, not too seriously, it just seems like the only distinction between the two leagues is an arbitrary one. There's no direct competition with the people you're in a league with other than what you make of it, but my performance doesn't hurt someone else's. Just seems like since the playing field would be the exact same in both leagues, no matter who has the most points at the end of the season has a claim on a championship, no matter which league they're in, don't ya see?

posted by Ufez Jones at 10:55 AM on January 22, 2004

But the devil is always in the detail wc2002. I see Ufez's point and I also can't see how newbies being forced into a second (class) division would encourage participation next season. For me, competition and fun are maximised by having the greatest possible number of teams in the competition, all competing in one league. Let's face it, football is already a minority sport here, why marginalise it further by discouraging new members from taking part?

posted by squealy at 11:41 AM on January 22, 2004

I agree, this was one possible drawback. But after starting and playing in two leagues over the past two seasons, I can say, I don't think there'll be that much new participation. I've invited SpoFiers in various threads with mixed success. We had a lovely surprise in this season's PL.com league thanks to the Fooker and others (squealy? FB?) getting their friends to play. I think that's where the newbies are going to come from, and that their buddies can easily guide them to the right place. My intention was to just add the promo/relegation league for a little more flavor, balancing it against the risk of discouraging newcomers. We won't know until we try and I was all for the risk, in the hopes of making it more fun, and also drawing more people in as a result. Ufez: This entire thing is arbitrary. I'm not arguing this thing on its logical merits. It's supposed to be silly. And fun. Tell me what is non-arbitrary about a bunch of people picking the mostly the same players for their teams OR those players getting a bunch of points that are different depending on what they do? It's all arbitrary, that's the point? It's not an objective, totally balanced, equal and fair world where nobody is disappointed. C'mon! Why are you nitpicking the fun out of this? You guys can have your devil and your details and your non-arbitrary world. I'll just have my cheesy random slab of fun, thanks.

posted by worldcup2002 at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2004

I was game to become a second class citizen of the footie nation. either way it works out, the first season is to get a feel, the second is to take the cup.

posted by garfield at 12:50 PM on January 22, 2004

No need to knot your knickers, wc. You wanted to punt around the idea, I was just raising a point, not nitpicking the fun out of anything. I still do like the idea, mainly based on the merit that even if someone in the first league falls way behind the top 5 or so, they still have a reason to stay interested. I just thought we were discussing it.

posted by Ufez Jones at 01:31 PM on January 22, 2004

Indeed, if you're going to measure the desirability of making a change to the structure, how else but examining the possible pros and cons? For what it's worth I could have invited a lot more people to join us, it was just that Kwacky was already aware of SpoFi and considering joining. Just look at my team, we're competing in five different mini leagues (with my SpoFi comrades, my drinking buddies, my work colleagues, a triv community forum and a Blues supporters league), and I'm not winning any of them. *Sob*. I didn't invite more people because I thought we had enough interest within SpoFi itself. And I think that's been proven right, as a 30 team league on a site with a mainly North American demographic is a great result. Anyway, whatever the decision made, you can be sure I'll be participating next season.

posted by squealy at 01:47 PM on January 22, 2004

As far as one of the cons that have been brought up, i really don't see how having two divisions would "scare" away newcomers... Think how excited they would be if the got promoted the next season! I don't even care what league i play in...frankly, i have a boner about the whole idea. And i can get even more people to join who would go straight into the second division (i may end up there myself considering the way i am performing this season) so there won't be a shortage. Something that just occurred to me...how many relegation/promotion spots would there be every year? We would probably have to have about half the league promoted/relegated every year so that the chances of getting promoted from second division are a bit better...especially if you don't make it the first year. I hope i don't become the Manchester City of this whole idea...

posted by StarFucker at 01:57 PM on January 22, 2004

Who said anything about scaring away newcomers? I was more of the opinion that if a newbie wanted to take part, and they were told they could only join the second division they might just tell us to go fuck ourselves. Maybe not. I guess you'd never know unless you tried it.

posted by squealy at 02:32 PM on January 22, 2004

I'm of the opinion that any newbs that want to join the SpoFi League would actually warm to the idea of having a relegation system in place that resembles the standings in the actual sport. Isn't that what fantasy sports is all about?

posted by lilnemo at 03:13 PM on January 22, 2004

I'm of the opinion that any newbs that want to join the SpoFi League would actually warm to the idea of having a relegation system ditto

posted by garfield at 04:25 PM on January 22, 2004

Good god, do we actually have people who think this is fun? Forsooth! Heavens to Murgatroyd! Ufez: No need to knot your knickers, wc. Who said I was wearing knickers? And why are you looking there anyway! You freak! Well, hey, I'm glad you aren't all just interested in pissing all over my pipedream. You're all beautiful, ya know. *snif* I love ya.

posted by worldcup2002 at 04:57 PM on January 22, 2004

So, an informal count of responses in this thread: Yea/yay: (9) Fooker dusted (are you playing this season? I can't tell) wc2k2 bill kwacky eckeric jason lilnemo garfield Maybe/i'm cool with it: (2) squealy Ufez You crazy: (1) jerseygirl

posted by worldcup2002 at 05:02 PM on January 22, 2004

I say we do it this season, split at the end of this season, everybody fight for your survival now! 1. split 15-15 at end of this season, fooker etc. can get their friends in as newbies to the 2nd division next year 2. Promotion and relegation: 3 in each division (or 4 if we're feeling particularly generous). Group decision (I won't call it a vote, we should try organized anarchy or an organic emergent result - ha!) but must be finalized one week before the beginning of next season, so we can communicate it to people. 3. Prizes: Ponies?

posted by worldcup2002 at 05:06 PM on January 22, 2004

WC: Do you mean this pony? I think you should splurge and buy it now to send to the winner. Though perhaps more suitable prize for the second division winner... I think we should promote and relegate a bigger percentage than the real league does, say at least 5 out of 15. Finally, does anyone know of a free (or very cheap) EPL fantasy site that does drafts so we don't have 22 teams with Henry as the striker?

posted by billsaysthis at 07:18 PM on January 22, 2004

No! I hate drafts! Everybody can pick who they want. That's the way we've always done it since the days of Stonehenge. It's our he-ritage! You're ripping the heart out of our culture! This is apocalypse! You're just sorry you're stuck with Van Nistelhorse. Neiiiigggh! (Don't worry. Ruuuuuud is on my yahoo team. I know how it feels.)

posted by worldcup2002 at 12:09 AM on January 23, 2004

worldcup, i don't think that 3-4 places for relegation/promotion are enough... I know that wouldn't be realistic if there were more, but it would be an incentive for the first year, if its successful, we could narrow it down some after the expected success of this first year...maybe we can come up with some figure in the middle.

posted by StarFucker at 12:10 AM on January 23, 2004

Yeah, more would be fun, I guess. 5-6? I won't go any higher!

posted by worldcup2002 at 01:11 PM on January 23, 2004

posted by StarFucker at 05:51 PM on January 23, 2004


posted by worldcup2002 at 07:40 PM on January 25, 2004

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