October 18, 2007

Can't say that I call that moving "forward" when you fire the best manager in baseball. Good luck finding anyone else that can manage a game, a season, and twenty-four overpaid prima donnas all the while dealing with an owner whose business acumen consists of threats and intimidation.

posted by irunfromclones at 04:43 PM on October 18, 2007

I'm a Blue Jays fan, and the Yankees rank third on my list of most disliked baseball teams. However, I have nothing but respect for the job Joe Torre has done, and the manner and class with which he has comported himself. Cheers Joe, to a job well done. On preview, IRFC, the Yankees did not fire Joe, his contract had expired, and the two parties simply were unable to agree on terms for a new deal. One other question, which Yankees player is not an overpaid prima donna? You couldn't be more wrong about George Steinbrenner, this is a man that has built one of the finest, most valuable sports corporations in the world. Though the Yankees do create a great deal of revenue, tremendous dollars are reinvested every year back into the organization.

posted by tommybiden at 04:57 PM on October 18, 2007

Wow, I am shocked. I had just read that he was flying to tampa to sign a one year agreement with an option for a second and was about to try and find a link for sportsfilter.

posted by justgary at 05:19 PM on October 18, 2007

One other question, which Yankees player is not an overpaid prima donna? well, let's take their post-season roster. i count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 guys making under $1 million. overpaid prima donnas indeed.

posted by goddam at 05:27 PM on October 18, 2007

The discussion about the money the yankees spend is missing the point. New York and Boston spend considerably more than other teams. We know that. But for managers, and in this case Torre and Francona, New York and Boston presents other problems. Not just anyone can manage in New York. (and again, if your only point is that you hate the yankees, take it elsewhere.)

posted by justgary at 05:35 PM on October 18, 2007

Well I don't think the offer was an insulting as others do. First of all Joe Torre was paid 7.5 million dollars a year to manage the Yankees to a World Series Victory. Regardless of how difficult that is even with the highest paid roster in baseball, that is what he was getting 7.5 million to do. He failed, several times, and although not single handedly, he failed to deliver nonetheless. The new offer would have been worth the same had he succeeded. Is there any other team where his chances are as good? There is nothing wrong with getting paid to produce, or an incentive contract, and with a $5 million a year guaranteed, does anybody think he will get more somewhere else? Should the Yankees up his compensation for not reaching the goal they have set? Regardless he of the offer, he has not lived up to the Yankee Organization's expectations, and with the talent he manages, getting blown out early in the post season is not why he was getting $7.5 million. IMO he should have accepted the offer, unless of course he is just tired of the Yankees and thinks he will get more elsewhere. How about broadcasting? For all anybody knows he did not leave because of the offer, he may have just had enough and wanted to pursue other opportunities. I think the Yankees made a fair and reasonable offer. With the talent they have there are plenty of managers that will work for the same compensation and do just as good a job as he did. It isn't hard to make the playoffs with their roster. Let them play ball and you're practically there anyway.

posted by Atheist at 05:55 PM on October 18, 2007

First off, I will always respect Joe Torre for the class he has always shown while managing the Yankees. His cool, level-headed demeanor was impressive throughout all the seasons he led the team. I like the guy and realize managing the Yankees is a difficult assignment. That being said, I truly believe it's time for the Yankees to move on. The team has made the playoffs every year, true, but the last several seasons they have either been a relatively easy out in many series and have also been part of the biggest collapse in baseball history. They just haven't gotten the job done for quite a while, and Torre, like the manager or head coach of any sports team, has to be accountable. Last week on ESPNs "The Sports Reporters," Michael Kay made a good point, saying Torre is always given piles of credit when the Yankees do something well, but when they fail, people always make other excuses and blame everyone and everything BUT Torre. Why? The guy is/was good at handling players on the team, the owner, and the media, but as a strategist during games, I wasn't always totally sold on him. My feeling is the team has always gone through the motions on the field in the past several seasons, played with little if any emotion, and that has to change. I'd like to see a manager, someone like Joe Girardi, who could maybe get the team to play with some fire, not just go out there as a team with a lot of talent on paper. And no, I don't think Don Mattingly is the right choice. The guy was a Yankee great, but he's a bit layed-back too. If I had my way, the entire coaching staff would be out the door and fresh faces would come in, and if that means certain veterans want to leave, then so be it. The Yankees have turned the corner and started devoting themselves to bringing up their young talent from the organization. Now is the right time to make big changes.

posted by dyams at 06:31 PM on October 18, 2007

I love to hate the Yankees. The fact that they had such an admirable gentleman as their coach made them more like honored enemies, which made them somehow more fun to dislike. I hope a team that I like hires him so I can root for him in earnest from now on.

posted by Joey Michaels at 06:31 PM on October 18, 2007

Steinbrenner is a jerk-off...Is he retarded? A classic case of projection.

posted by Venicemenace at 06:52 PM on October 18, 2007

Here's a hint George, buy some pitching next season. Is he retarded? He spends all the teams cash on position players and they get bounced in the first round of the playoffs every year. posted by docshredder Roger Clemens 18,000,000 Andy Pettitte 16,000,000 Mike Mussina 11,070,423 Mariano Rivera 10,500,000 Carl Pavano 10,000,000 Their best pitcher hasn't pitched enough years to get arbitration so: Chien-Ming Wang 489,500 The yankees spend more on pitching than many teams entire payroll. Who's retarded?

posted by justgary at 07:07 PM on October 18, 2007

I think this is pretty much the Yankees firing him without having to fire him. I mean - The Yankees don't offer a pay cut, with incentives unless their essentially telling Torre that he isn't really wanted. It's not like they're trying to save money. It's the classic low ball offer to initiate the departure. It's a lot more passive aggressive than firing him. But I still think it's too bad. Torre had magnificent success with the Yankees, but these things just don't go on forever anymore, I guess. What? They're going to find a better manager? Likely not. I can't think of one. Could you imagine Tony LaRussa in NY? Good god - he'd be insufferable. Naw - this is a passing of the guard.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:06 PM on October 18, 2007

My issue with Yanks (and Red Sox) payroll is not that they can afford to pay their stars so much, it's that they don't suffer for their mistakes. If a small payroll team gambles big and it backfires, they're pretty much screwed for the next five years. Exhibit A: Rockies dooming themselves to the cellar after going big with Denny Neagle and Mike Hampton. Even their successes are borderline unsustainable. See Todd Helton. Meanwhile, the Yankees overpay for mediocre pitching and still make it in to the postseason every year, because there's always more where that came from.

posted by drumdance at 09:42 PM on October 18, 2007

One really good aspect of the contract offered to Torre was that it had a significant portion of it based on achieving some specific results.. Now that's an idea that ought to be applied to a few of the team members!!!! And in other sports as well.... e.g. soccer's Becker, who draws millions and sits out 'injured'. If a pitcher had to draw say 5 million then get another million for .xxx ERA and and another for .yyy ERA and another million for wins - losses.... and another for staying healthy... etc... that might help.

posted by Fly_Piscator at 09:56 PM on October 18, 2007

the article basically says that 5 mill/year + incentives wasn't a serious offer? Even with the "30%" reduction he would still be THE HIGHEST PAID manager in MLB. Sorry, I don't see how that is a "publicity stunt" as the article presumes. I see it as "we still think your the best manager in the league, so we're willing to pay you that, but we're not willing to pay you over 2X what the next highest paid guy is paid since you haven't won us a title recently". I think it's pretty uncommon (though perhaps not wholly unprecedented) for a manager to have his contract renewed at a lower annual salary. It's not like we're talking about a baseball player whose skill set is in decline and therefore deserves lower pay; Torre presumably would be bringing the same skills to the table next year as he did last year. Regardless of whether $5MM is a lot of money and is more than any other manager makes, it's still not common practice to bring a manager back for a lower salary. I guess you can say this is results-based, but suggesting that not winning the World Series is a result over which Torre has a lot of control is to get it all wrong. The better measure of the manager is to look at what his team does over the 162 games of a season -- and Torre has led the Yankees to the playoffs 12 consecutive years. The focus on playoff results is basically a focus on what is largely a crapshoot. While the Yankees arguably have underachieved in the playoffs in recent history, Torre's Yankees teams show that sometimes you win with the best team (1998), sometimes you win with something other than the best team (2000), sometimes you lose with best team (2003), and sometimes you lose with something less than the best team (2007).

posted by holden at 10:22 PM on October 18, 2007

Steinbrenner is a jerk-off...Is he retarded? No, but he does seem to be suffering from early-stage dementia. So now would be the classiest time possible to make fun of his mental faculties...

posted by grum@work at 11:55 PM on October 18, 2007

This sentence maked me stoopider Good it got someone else too. I was worried it just got me. Alright back to the topic. This offer was never meant to be serious. It was intended for Joe to turn it down, so that the Yankee's and Steinbrenner did not look like the bad guy's. Could you have imagined the media and the players response if they had actually fired Joe Freaking Torre? Come on the man has taken them to 12 straight post-seasons, 6 world series, four of which they won. Three were back to back to back! Why do you think we did not hear and see the headlines "Yankee's fire Torre" last week after the Cleveland series? They were putting this crappy offer together that they knew Joe would never take. After everything Joe did in NY he can go wherever he wants, he won't make as much money as in NY, but I don't think he cares too much. Its a good thing he just got through that 19.2 million dollar, three year contract, so he could afford not to take that insult of a pay cut the Steinbrenner's offered him. On a side note, in case Joe is reading this, Joe, you can come to Cleveland anyday you want. Cleveland would love to have you over the snapping turtle looking thing we have now that can't close out a series.

posted by jojomfd1 at 03:19 AM on October 19, 2007

budman: why don't you want Torre to come to STL? I'm all for it in theory. Practically speaking the front office won't spend the money, so it will never happen. What about you Holden? I'm anti-Torre-to-the-Cards because he has largely the same skill set as La Russa (minus the obsessive pitching changes for match-up purposes thing) -- he's a great manager of veteran teams, but I don't think he's the best one to help ease youngsters into the team and/or help the team rebuild. And I think the Cardinals need to be focusing on getting younger and going through somewhat of a rebuild (during which time they should, of course, still be able to compete in the relatively pathetic NL Central). I think at this point, the Cards would be better off without La Russa, but I don't think Torre is the answer.

posted by holden at 07:59 AM on October 19, 2007

I guess you can say this is results-based, but suggesting that not winning the World Series is a result over which Torre has a lot of control is to get it all wrong. well I'm not suggesting it, but the Yankees brain-trust obviously believe it. No one, leastwise someone of Torre's stature, could be expected to want to do more work (and, as you point out, rely on huge amounts of luck) only to make less or (with even more luck) slightly more than he used to make. It's done all the time. Players signing 1 year incentive laden contracts after sub-par years in the hopes of having a big year and getting a better long-term deal. Now that's different here as holden pointed out it's rarer for coaches, but the Yankee's thinking is certainly the same (i.e. you haven't produced for us lately, here's a 1 year/incentive laden contract...if you produce this year we'll consider longer options). Publicity stunt? More like elaborate insult. I doubt anyone will ever convince me that a contract that guarantees him over $2 million MORE than the SECOND HIGHEST paid coach is an "insult". Especially when it also has very reachable incentives that could drive it up to $4-5 million more than the second highest paid coach. How insulting.

posted by bdaddy at 08:59 AM on October 19, 2007

I do think it's an insult to decrease the amount that a high-caliber manager gets just because the team hasn't won the World Series since 2000. For Joe Torre to have his team make the playoffs every single year that he's the skipper is something that IMO, cannot be duplicated. Just because they haven't won the World Series in 7 years and having the highest payroll in baseball does not gaurantee that they will win it all. If they really wanted to keep Joe Torre (and something tells me that they didn't), what they should've offer him was the same contract but with incentives to be accounted for after passing the 1st round of the playoffs instead of the 'smack-in-the-face, we're-sure-that-he'll refuse-it' offer. I have to agree with former Mets GM and current ESPN analyst, Steve Phillips that the Yankees organization are "either arrogant or ignorant" to think that it's a given that they'll win the World Series just because they're the Yanks. Good for Joe for finally standing up for himself and telling "The Boss" to shove it. Maybe now, Willie Randolph can call Joe over to Brooklyn as his bench coach.

posted by BornIcon at 09:31 AM on October 19, 2007

I think you mean Queens. So where do you think Queens is? I'll take BROOKLYN for $100 Pat.

posted by BornIcon at 09:56 AM on October 19, 2007

If Queens is in Brooklyn, you might as well says Brooklyn is in Queens since Queens is bigger.

posted by drumdance at 10:10 AM on October 19, 2007

So where do you think Queens is? Mostly north of Brooklyn, they're two different boroughs in the city of New York. At least, that's what they taught me in geography class. BornIcon, The Old Man, and SFValley_Dude. Who are three people who have never been in my kitchen Alex?

posted by tommybiden at 10:24 AM on October 19, 2007

I doubt anyone will ever convince me that a contract that guarantees him over $2 million MORE than the SECOND HIGHEST paid coach is an "insult". Especially when it also has very reachable incentives that could drive it up to $4-5 million more than the second highest paid coach. How insulting. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Making $5MM (with the potential for more) and $2MM more than the next highest paid guy is not, in a vacuum, insulting. Taking a large pay cut when you've done a job to the best of your ability (I still believe that getting a team to the playoffs should be the standard by which managers are judged -- all the great managering in the world was not going to change the fact that the Yankees didn't have the pitching to succeed this postseason) is insulting. The still high amount of Torre's salary is a red herring, it's that he did nothing to deserve a pay cut. And there's a colorable argument to be made that Torre actually deserves a salary twice as high as anyone else considering what the expectations are, considering what he puts up with from his owner and the media in that market, and considering that he took his team to the playoffs 12 consecutive years. Now I'm not one to think that managers can vastly change the fortunes of a team for the better (I think they can probably do more harm over a course of a season than good), but I'm not convinced that some robot or some other non-Joe Torre manager could have led the Yankees to the playoffs 12 consecutive years.

posted by holden at 10:43 AM on October 19, 2007

Brooklyn (named after the Dutch town Breukelen) is one of the five boroughs of New York City. An independent city, until its consolidation into New York in 1898, Brooklyn is New York City's most populous borough, with nearly 2.5 million residents. Brooklyn is coterminous with Kings County, which is the most populous county in New York State, and the second most densely populated county in the United States (after New York County, which is the borough of Manhattan). Queens is the largest in area and the second most populous of the five boroughs of New York City. The borough of Queens is coterminous with Queens County in New York State, USA. It is home to New York City's two major airports (John F. Kennedy and LaGuardia), the New York Mets baseball team, the USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center (home of the annual U.S. Open), Silvercup Studios, Flushing Meadows Corona Park, and Queens Center (the most profitable per-square-foot mall in America). Thank you wikipedia

posted by HATER 187 at 11:39 AM on October 19, 2007

Another classless move by George Steinbrenner! If the club wanted to move on with another manager that's fine,but to make an offer that they knew Torre would turn down just to save face with the public,that's classless! Is anybody else being asked to take a 33% paycut on the yankees,such as Brian Cashman, NO! They are losing one of the best managers in baseball history. Sure you can say look at the payroll or look at the talent,but the bottom line is that Joe Torre does not decide which players to hire, Brian Cashman does and if you ask me he has done an absolutely terrible job in the last 5 years. He spent 20 million on a washed up Roger Clemens for less than half a season in which he was hurt most of the time. He should be the one taking a big pay cut! Besides who else are they going to find that can handle the New York media and the assanined Steinbrenner family. All I can say is good luck yankee fans.

posted by muggsy at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2007

That's why it's Brooklyn, Queens and Brooklyn is where the Mets are located and also my place of birth. No its Brooklyn, New York. Queens has several different "towns", for example Richmond Hill, New York or Rego Park, New York. Queens and Brooklyn are two separate counties and two separate borough. They are not the same place, in fact they are two different places. I've lived here my whole and consider myself well versed in Metro New York geography.

posted by HATER 187 at 12:26 PM on October 19, 2007

Steinbrenner never worried about being seen as a bad guy the last 452 managerial changes, so I don't see why he'd start now. posted by rcade That was before torre though. As far back as 2001 there were rumors that Steinbrenner felt torre was too popular to fire, and he didn't like it. No, but he does seem to be suffering from early-stage dementia. So now would be the classiest time possible to make fun of his mental faculties... posted by grum@work Yeah, those were classless remarks regardless of the target. But your article doesn't say anything about dementia, and has a few comments saying he's fine. If he was truly suffering from dementia the yankees should have made it known that others were in charge. You can't have it both ways. You can't keep up a charade that he's running the organization and at the same time treat him with kids gloves. Thankfully, it seems NY is finally taking the steps to do just that.

posted by justgary at 01:29 PM on October 19, 2007

Queens has several different "towns", for example Richmond Hill, New York or Rego Park, New York. To take it a step further, Shea Stadium, home of the Mets, is located in Flushing (as in Flushing your season down the drain) a "city" in Queens. And, as a lifelong Met and Jet fan, I can tell you most definitively that Queens is not in Brooklyn. But Brooklyn and Queens are both part of the Island of Long (and that is also a geographical fact, as much as my buddies in Brooklyn and Queens may argue it). As far as Torre, I tend to lean towards the camp which believes that a five million dollar salary is a five million dollar salary. And that's a lot, especially when the next highest paid manager still makes $1.5 million less than you. His previous salary does cloud the issue. But why can't this simply be a situation where Steinbrenner and sons simply think that Torre's value is not what it once was rather than some calculated insult or public relations ploy? If you offer someone $5 million in any field, you have to imagine that there is at least a slight chance they'll take it. I'm not a Yankee fan. But it seems to me that many posters are using this as a backhanded way of bashing the Yankees and Steinbrenner.

posted by cjets at 03:00 PM on October 19, 2007

Backhanded? I think most of it is pretty forehanded, if such a word exists. Crafty must be rolling over in his cyber-grave right now.

posted by hawkguy at 03:27 PM on October 19, 2007

The insult isn't the 5 millions dollars, it's the incentive laden contract. As if Torre wasn't giving his all, so they dangle a carrot in front of him. I just don't see it that way. What they're saying is: "We're the Yankees. We spend ungoldy amounts of money on players and we expect to be in the World Series every year. If you can do that, you will get a $500,000 raise and an option for $8 million the following year." It's all about the expectations of the Yankees organization. They put a premium on World Series appearances and structured the offer to reflect that. I'm not saying I agree. But it is consistent with their worldview. Oh come on. Supporting Torre is supporting someone that has been the face of the yankees for years. Hardly backhanded. I disagree. That's why I said it was backhanded. I'm sure many of the posters are genuine in their support of Torre. But it also seems clear that other posters use their "support" of Torre as a way to bash the Yankees for an "elaborate insult", "publicity stunt," Steinbrenner's mental capacity and even the Yankees' expectation that they will be in the World Series every year. Again, I'm not a Yankees fan (though I may be channelling Crafty) but I could think of far worse things than rooting for a team that thinks an annual trip to the World Series is their birthright.

posted by cjets at 04:43 PM on October 19, 2007

I just don't see it that way. What they're saying is: "We're the Yankees. We spend ungoldy amounts of money on players and we expect to be in the World Series every year. If you can do that, you will get a $500,000 raise and an option for $8 million the following year." Which is something the yankees don't do, incentives. Torre himself has now come out and said those exact words. He was insulted by the performance based contract. I disagree. That's why I said it was backhanded. I'm sure many of the posters are genuine in their support of Torre. But it also seems clear that other posters use their "support" of Torre as a way to bash the Yankees for an "elaborate insult", "publicity stunt," Steinbrenner's mental capacity and even the Yankees' expectation that they will be in the World Series every year. Torre himself has said it was an insult. Many yankee fans and web sites are saying the exact same things being said here.. Which means you can simply label everything here yankee hatred if you choose, but its not going to fly elsewhere.

posted by justgary at 04:56 PM on October 19, 2007

I don't think you're bashing the Yankees at all. But I just can't get my head around the idea that the offer of $5 million dollars a year is insulting. Maybe some of you are much richer than I am. I bet Casey Stengel would have liked to been offered $5 million. He lost game 7 of the 1960 world series on a bad hop and a walk off homer. They just "retired" him. No offer there. And I don't agree that the playoffs are just a coin toss. I think that the managers contributions to the postseason are vital. And I don't think that I'd want a manager that thought that the playoffs were a coin toss either.

posted by cjets at 05:22 PM on October 19, 2007

Torre himself has said it was an insult. Many yankee fans and web sites are saying the exact same things being said here.. Which means you can simply label everything here yankee hatred if you choose, but its not going to fly elsewhere. posted by justgary thank you justgary!! $5 million is a lot of money. everyone who says that is correct. the big issue is here as many have stated b4 is that you have a guy who is the face of your franchise, who has Hall of Fame credentials, who took a mediocre Yankees team and took them to the playoffs 12 straight years, won 4 World Series, 3 of them back to back, and can keep his cool with the vultures called the new york city media. not many people can do that, perhaps nobody can. think of how many other teams would love to have the guy with all this on his resume manage their team?? probalby all of them. so the point of this is that this person with those credentials just worked his magic again and the yankees brass decided that it wasnt enough. so they gave him a paycut and an incentive based contract. when you have the 2nd most winningest manager in the history of the winningest team in baseball history cutting your pay and offering you incentives i would find that insulting. there are a lot of good baseball teams. only 8 of them make the playoffs, only 1 of them wins it all. that means 29 other teams fail every year? what if the rockies lose the world series, does that mean this year wasnt successful? what about the brewers, since they didnt make the playoffs but were in the race the whole season after 10-20ish years of being the joke of the sport make ned yost an underachiever? theres teams like the royals and devil rays that would love to have someone do what joe torre did and for the yankees to "motivate" him is a slap in the face

posted by nyfan at 06:41 PM on October 19, 2007

But I just can't get my head around the idea that the offer of $5 million dollars a year is insulting. Maybe some of you are much richer than I am. Let's put it in perspective: Your current job wishes to renegotiate your current salary and says that the best they'll do is offer you 70% of what you are currently earning. However, if everyone else around you performs well during a 1-month period next year, you'll end up making about 12% more than you did this year because of the bonuses. Need I remind you that over the past 12 years at your current job, you've performed better than anyone else in your profession, and better than anyone in your position in the last 45 years of your company.

posted by grum@work at 07:57 PM on October 19, 2007

edit: on second thought, never mind. You're right. Some people are probably reacting with disliking the Yankees behind it. I'll just say that I don't think most here are. Jeez. I had this whole long reply to you and you had to go and say something reasonable! I would agree that most spofi posters are not trying to bash the Yankees, just give their two cents on the situation. See, I can be reasonable too.

posted by cjets at 09:05 PM on October 19, 2007

JustGary had it right. The offer was insulting for all Torre contibuted to the Yankees (and he is not even a Yankee fan). A 30% drop in salary would be insulting to anyone in the work force, regardless of your job. He has been the most successful coach of a baseball team in my lifetime. They were obviously telling him he was not wanted. As a result they will lose many good players that were supporters of his- ARod, Posada, Hernandez and when their contracts are up many other players will probably decide to go as well, depending upon the treatment Mattingly (or Girardi) gives them. Torre treated his players as professionals, you didn't hear of them getting into trouble off the field and they treated their jobs as such. Not only is Torre a winner, but he is a class act. Something NY has not had since Bill Parcells left town.

posted by urall cloolis at 11:54 PM on October 19, 2007

If Torre joins the Yankees, in what wil likely be baseball's greatest stadium of the current time in 2 years.

posted by Joe188 at 03:51 PM on October 20, 2007

I must be high, lost in joe188 comments. Bartender forget that drink!

posted by brickman at 08:55 PM on October 20, 2007

Bob Ryan has an interesting take on the Torre situation in a column in today's (Sunday) Boston Globe.

posted by Howard_T at 07:11 PM on October 21, 2007

Since a major league roster usually has 25 players on it, I was just curious to know who he felt was the non prima donna. Chien-Ming Wang

posted by irunfromclones at 12:08 PM on October 23, 2007

That 1 year offer was nothing short of INSULTING. To manage a great team like the Yankees for twelve straight seasons, including a season (this one) where they came back from 13 under, is an incredible feat. For the organization to offer him only 1 year with a pay cut was disturbing, and Torre did the right thing, leaving with pride and dignity!

posted by Jzsteinm at 09:21 AM on October 25, 2007