October 08, 2007

I deleted a comment by a longtimer directing an obscenity my way in response to the post. If you can't comment here after your team's crushing defeat without taking your hostility out on SportsFilter members, step away from the keyboard. The New York Yankees are the most storied team in American sports. Their early exit is more newsworthy than the Phillies, Angels and whoever the third team was. By a factor of 100.

posted by rcade at 12:40 AM on October 09, 2007

Wow! I think it was posted due to the amount, and caliber of players, plus the fact that Torre that could be leaving. Personally, I think "The Boss" is a few fries short of a happy meal if he gets rid of Torre. You are going to be hard pressed to find someone that can handle all of those different high paid personalities, the management, the media, the fans, and still keep a team like that* together. It says a lot for Joe what some of those names on that list said about keeping him. I watched the news conference after the game tonight also. I have to say that Joe Torre was one hell of a stand up guy. He gave credit where it was due, did not bitch about the bad calls from the umps(they did not make much of a difference though), and refused to get into the stuff about him and Steinbrenner. He also spoke highly of his team, which he should have. Steinbrenner just needs to wake up and realize that this was probably one of, if not the, best seasons Torre has had as a manager for the Yanks. They were 43 - 43 at the all star break, 9.5 games out of first in the East, and 6 out of the wild card. They finished only 2 games out of first and 6 games ahead of the next wild card contender. Damn good season Mr. Torre. All of this from an Indian fan. I will now go and buy a new keyboard, one that has never typed anything good about the Yanks again! *Nothing bad was meant by this, I just would not want to handle all those personalities at once. Much less try to get them to play ball with each other.

posted by jojomfd1 at 12:58 AM on October 09, 2007

And all those teams were picked. Angels- heavy favorites. Cubs- favorites. Phils- heavy favorites against the Pads, break even against the Rockies. Yet the Indians were always picked. The Tribe and the Angels were never picked as favorites, nor where the Cubs. The only time for the Tribe may have been after game 2, but it's too late then. Oh, and the Pads are not even in the playoffs!

posted by jojomfd1 at 01:12 AM on October 09, 2007

the oddmakers had the cubs favorites to win the series. Arizona was favorite to win only game 1.

posted by whodat at 01:55 AM on October 09, 2007

I'm always glad to see the Yankees go out early, but I definitely don't think the problem is Torre. The problem is not enough Paul O'Neill/Tino Martinez/David Cone type guys on the team. The last time the Yankees were great, they had a bevy of clubhouse leaders who would push the other guys to be better. While they do have a number of very good players, they are just lacking that essential quality.

posted by psmealey at 05:48 AM on October 09, 2007

The last time the Yankees were great, they had a bevy of clubhouse leaders who would push the other guys to be better. Also, after winning the World Series 4 times, the Yankees payroll just kept increasing to the degree it is now. Having the highest payroll in the league does not gaurantee a World Series victory, having great leaders that will continue to fight no matter what the outcome looks like is what makes for a great team....that and pitching.

posted by BornIcon at 06:15 AM on October 09, 2007

The Yankee farm system has suffered over the years when the Cash-man traded the best talent off for older star players who only lasted a few years. Yes, the Yankees did bring up a lot of great farmhands this season I'm having a bit of trouble with this logic. Cashman did a great job of staying the course this year and Hughes, Chamberlain, Cabrera and Cano were all contributors. Seems like when he wasn't forced by The Boss to make a big free agency splash, he did just fine. "The old dynasty finally fell, and for good Monday night in the Bronx." I really liked Howard Bryant when he was with the Boston Herald, but he's turned into a typical national nonsense voice since getting to ESPN. How can you declare the Yankees dead? Assuming A-Rod and Posada come back, they're fine. Perhaps a wee bit of Yankee-specific schadenfreude? Oh please. Which of those series was even interesting? The Red Sox did just as expected, the Cubs sucked throughout and the Rockies are like a force of nature right now. The Yankees and Indians was the only series that had any drama to it. I think I slept through a fair part of the Sox/ Angels.

posted by yerfatma at 06:27 AM on October 09, 2007

Will be interesting to see how much rebuilding Steinbrenner tolerates. He could, of course, blow up the team, let all those listed go (and more- Giambi?), and tolerate a much smaller payroll and perhaps fewer wins. But I'm guessing he doesn't, and Posada, Rivera, A-Rod, and maybe even Pettite come back, along with a couple high-priced free-agent pitchers.

posted by tieguy at 07:09 AM on October 09, 2007

I should add that I think I'm finally beginning to buy the 'A-Rod is a choker' thing. Or at least he's brutally overpaid. Yes, every Yankee hitter sucked this series, but he's the only one who got paid $27M to suck, which has to mean something. [Of course, Giambi and Jeter got paid $23M and $21M to suck even more than A-Rod did, so maybe I'm being harsh...] For reference, ESPN salary chart for the yankees and ESPN batting chart for the series, sorted by OPS. Tangentially, I do think that the end of this Yankees era is incredibly significant - Torre has won more post-season games than any manager in history - so if I were an Indians fan, I wouldn't be too bitter about the media coverage of his quasi-firing. They'll still be talking about the Indians this weekend, and they won't be talking about Torre.

posted by tieguy at 07:27 AM on October 09, 2007

I should add that I think I'm finally beginning to buy the 'A-Rod is a choker' thing. Or at least he's brutally overpaid. Yes, every Yankee hitter sucked this series, but he's the only one who got paid $27M to suck, which has to mean something. [Of course, Giambi and Jeter got paid $23M and $21M to suck even more than A-Rod did, so maybe I'm being harsh...] Well, since the Yankees are only paying about $20M of Rodriguez' money, it means Jeter and Giambi do suck worse on a Yankees dollars per value ratio. I agree with those above who suggest that this is the story of the playoffs thus far. Maybe with more compelling series in the other match-ups, it wouldn't be so, but -- for better or worse -- it is. I think the Yankees are going to be fine next year. I think Rodriguez is going to go, but Mariano and Posada will be back. Pettitte possibly as well. The Yankees are going to have a very good, young rotation with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Wang. It will be a new look Yankees over the next several years -- I think the recent vintage Yankees who will beat you by outslugging you will be replaced with a strong pitching team. The Yankees may miss the playoffs one of these years, but hey -- welcome to the club. They will still be in the upper echelon of teams, and primarily because of their farm system, not in spit of it (as suggested above). Somewhat related, here's an interesting write-up on Steinbrenner's competency, Torre's job security, and the relative worth of managers/coaches in different sports vs. the amounts they are paid.

posted by holden at 07:56 AM on October 09, 2007

Even if Posada comes back, he's due to start falling apart at some point. The Yankees might be better served going young at C, unless they can get Posada to sign a reasonably-priced, short deal. If Rivera comes back (he should) I wonder if he slips into the role of setup man for Joba. If he doesn't come back to the Yankees, he should just buy a rocking chair and sit on the porch at Cooperstown until they let him in.

posted by tieguy at 08:39 AM on October 09, 2007

From Rovell's sportbiz blog, as a followup to my earlier salary comment:

It's worth noting that the Cleveland Indians, who beat the Yankees in three out of four games, field their best starting team for $28,114,527. C.C Sabathia $8,750,000 Grady Sizemore $916,667 Asdrubal Cabrera $114,760* Travis Hafner $4,000,000 Victor Martinez $3,200,000 Ryan Garko $383,100 Jhonny Peralta $1,000,000 Kenny Lofton $6,000,000 Casey Blake $3,750,000

So, yeah... the Indians entire best position-player lineup makes less than Jeter, Giambi, or A-Rod. Throw in the Yankee's 40% luxury tax, and that lineup makes less than Pettite, Clemens (even in the shortened season), or Abreu. They narrowly edge out Damon and Matsui, who with luxury tax cost the Yankees organization $18.2M each to the Indian's lineup $19.3M. Insane.

posted by tieguy at 09:23 AM on October 09, 2007

In the future, there's probably no need to emphasize my point. You consider that emphasizing your point? It was more clarifying what you were trying to say.

posted by BornIcon at 10:49 AM on October 09, 2007

The last several years of the Yankees remind me of the Braves near the end of their run. At least the Braves could blame the Yankees a couple of times, though not since 1999.

posted by drumdance at 11:40 AM on October 09, 2007

Perhaps some credit ought to be directed towards the Indians. It's understandable why the national media is all "Yankees Yankees Yankees", but the Tribe is a young team that is just getting better. Seems that way to me, as well. But let's reserve judgment until we see how they do against the Sox. Steinbrenner ought to do the same as well. If the Indians are the worldbeaters they appear to be and win the ALCS and maybe even the World Series then that ought to factor into whatever decisions are made about Torre. And as good as Torre is, sometimes after 13 years, a team just needs to move on. A guy like Girardi could be the change of pace the Yankees need. Or he could crash and burn in a year or two. Or he could do both and be the next coming of Billy Martin.

posted by cjets at 01:11 PM on October 09, 2007

I put the blame much more on Jeter- team captain, worse performance from someone who is supposed to be "Mr. Postseason"- than Arod. As a Yanks fan, I hope Torre stays, but Steinbrenner just isn't a rational person. I came to NYC having grown up a Phillies fan, which in the 80's was not easy. I became a Yanks fan when Torre took over, and it's been an amazing tenure. I think Posada will be back, but as 1B. Who's going to sign him as a starting catcher at this point? He's got a year, maybe two, left behind the plate, but he's a good bat and a solid teammate. I hope Arod comes back- he's a dirty, dirty player, but he's amazing to watch perform every night. The problem is not enough Paul O'Neill/Tino Martinez/David Cone type guys on the team. Definitely true, but you can see this coming together around Cano, Cabrera, and (to a lesser extent) Abreu. I think Melky would move into the dugout if he could.

posted by MKUltra at 01:54 PM on October 09, 2007

Seems that way to me, as well. But let's reserve judgment until we see how they do against the Sox. Steinbrenner ought to do the same as well. If the Indians are the worldbeaters they appear to be and win the ALCS and maybe even the World Series then that ought to factor into whatever decisions are made about Torre. Mighty good point that. Everyone connected with the enterprise has microphones being shoved in their faces right now asking for reaction, Steinbrenner included, so you're going to get comments...but there's no reason not to wait a few weeks before acting.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:27 PM on October 09, 2007

Bonds? Bonds? That is crazy talk. Brilliantly amusing crazy talk. But crazy talk nonetheless.

posted by tieguy at 03:54 PM on October 09, 2007

From the ashes of the Yankees, somebody will rise. Which could very well be the yankees.

posted by justgary at 04:11 PM on October 09, 2007

Did the Red Wings dynasty not end last decade? Depending on how one measures these things, you could say it ended about 2002-03.

posted by holden at 04:38 PM on October 09, 2007

Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment?

posted by tieguy at 05:24 PM on October 09, 2007

Good to see the Yankees have an early exit from the playoffs.But hearing that ole George giving Torre the "win or your fired" demand I think is way too much to ask for a manager who puts the best lineup he has on the field every game.Unfortunately, his players didn't come through for him in a must win situation,therefore he will more than likely lose his job as manager.With the highest payroll in baseball,I think he should take a good look at the players that he pays to win them games,whether it's A-Rod,Posada,Jeter etc,before pulling the plug on Torre.I think that you are going to see a major roster shake up in the Bronx before spring training starts.Maybe start with some pitching?

posted by Ghastly1 at 05:56 PM on October 09, 2007

The Yankees were out-classed What does that even mean? Please explain.

posted by justgary at 06:13 PM on October 09, 2007

Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment? Great reference, tieguy. I wonder how many readers will get it and how many will think you're just really bad at history. Perhaps instead of firing Torre, Steinbrenner could just put him on double-secret probation?

posted by gdvbranz at 06:22 PM on October 09, 2007

Did the pats dynasty not end? No. They lost to the Colts last year in part b/c their top receiver dropped two wide open passes in the breadbasket to win the game. He has been let go, the defense (which was good last year) was upgraded, and they now have four wideouts that are all better than Caldwell (the guy who was let go). Have you watched them at all this year? The dynasty isn't over: in fact, this may be their best team yet.

posted by brainofdtrain at 07:00 PM on October 09, 2007

"What the hell does that mean in terms of winning baseball games." It helps to be specific. Out-classed in the context of winning baseball games means that the Indians pitching was in a different class, their batting was in a different class, their fielding was in a different class, their coaching was in a different class.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:28 PM on October 09, 2007

"Am I the only one who started thinking 'Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?' about half-way through SFValley_Dude's last comment? posted by tieguy at 5:24 PM CDT on October 9" Duh, duh, duhhhhh???? I read somewhere that it was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. Don't get your drift when you include that sad event into an otherwise entertaining filter.

posted by Cave_Man at 08:09 PM on October 09, 2007

"No. They lost to the Colts last year in part b/c their top receiver dropped two wide open passes in the breadbasket to win the game. He has been let go, the defense (which was good last year) was upgraded, and they now have four wideouts that are all better than Caldwell (the guy who was let go)." Imagine what would be if Randy Moss had been in Caldwell's spot last January? Moss has vacuum cleaners for hands, anything that come near him that can be caught gets sucked up.

posted by Cave_Man at 08:13 PM on October 09, 2007

I doubt the Yanks will rise from this. Remember hw many people believed the Marlins would be a dynasty four long years ago? Th Tiges a year ago, and they never won it all! Nobody knows who the next dynasty will be. Of the teams going now, if an AL team wins it all, there will be dynasty talk. As for the present, the sports radios here in the Bay say that A Rod will opt out, and that La Russa will be Ynakees manager next year, 99% they seem to be sure. I had my money on Mattingly, and my neighbor on Showalter.

posted by Joe188 at 09:07 PM on October 09, 2007

Out-classed in the context of winning baseball games means that the Indians pitching was in a different class, their batting was in a different class, their fielding was in a different class, their coaching was in a different class. But you previously said: The Yankees were out-classed, out-coached, and out-played. Which is why I thought out-classed must mean something different than out-coached and out-played. If out-classed means out-coached and out-played, why do you need both? Regardless, game two could have gone either way. Take away the bugs and there's a good chance the yankees win that game. Which means they would have gone into game 4 ahead 2 games to 1. That seems strange for a team that was outclassed.

posted by justgary at 09:43 PM on October 09, 2007

A sure sign that the world is about to end: In the 9th inning of the last game, the Yankee fans booed Derek Jeter more than Alex Rodriguez when they walked back to the dugout.

posted by grum@work at 09:49 PM on October 09, 2007

Don't get your drift when you include that sad event into an otherwise entertaining filter. The reference to Germans attacking Pearl Harbor comes from the movie Animal House.

posted by drumdance at 09:57 PM on October 09, 2007

I think Posada will be back, but as 1B I thinks Sloth...er....Duncan should start at 1B. I'd like to see Jorge come back so long as it is a short term deal.

posted by HATER 187 at 01:08 AM on October 10, 2007

I am not an Indians fan but I picked them to win the World Series before the playoffs started and I am picking them now. The"Boss" in NY is a few sandwiches shy of a picnic if he thinks Joe is the problem. As a Cardinal fan I can only say if Tony leaves.......welcome back Joe!

posted by shudacudawuda at 05:22 PM on October 10, 2007

No offense JG, but that game still could have gone either way with the bugs. Well, it came out a little wrong. I was in no way saying that the bugs cost the yankees the game. Both teams played under those conditions. I simply meant that it was a very tight, strange game that could have gone either way. If New York pulls it out that series could completely change. That's why I didn't agree with the whole out-classed comment.

posted by justgary at 06:34 AM on October 11, 2007

I've been confused by the bug story. The stuff I've read about it gave the impression the bugs went for a beer while the Indians were pitching and were only interested in Jabba's sweaty neck. Were they all wearing tiny Indian jerseys or just a one-inning swarm?

posted by Mr Bismarck at 07:10 AM on October 11, 2007

Mr bismark the bugs are called midges, they are in Cleveland all summer long. They were on the field for several innings. They were the type that do not bite.

posted by jojomfd1 at 07:16 AM on October 11, 2007

Oops, Clutch two out hits was what I meant to say! Sorry, it's still early.

posted by jojomfd1 at 07:33 AM on October 11, 2007

Hi Brahdakine. Welcome to SpoFi. Please check out our guidelines.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:49 AM on October 11, 2007

Out-classed. You can throw out as many stats as you want. It doesn't change the fact that one run by the yankees in the 10th or 11th of game two and it's 2-1 yankees going into game 4. Your stats don't explain that. You keep quoting them like they do. They don't.

posted by justgary at 01:41 PM on October 11, 2007

They actually did stop the game briefly, and umps and players had the opportunity to soak themselves in bug spray. Sure didn't seem to help, though.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:15 PM on October 11, 2007

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Benjamin Disraeli posted by irunfromclones at 12:31 PM CDT on September 26 That was a nice stat you put up there irfc. Too bad it is not the stat that tells the true story of what happened. Like gary has stated game 2 could have gone either way, had the Yanks taken that game and gone back home tied. We may have had a different story today. The reason we don't, is not due to the stat you put up there though. It is due to two numbers, 14 and 2. The Indians had 14 two out RBI's and the yankee's only had 2. Hafner hit a two out RBI to end game two. The tribe had eight of them in game one alone. They put up another three in game 3, and the last two in game 4. Cano had one in game 1, and Jeter had one in game 4. The biggest difference was clutch hitting. Now about these bugs, you guys really can't be serious about stopping a game due to what amounts to little flies, can you? These are major league ball players that play in the rain, cold(sometimes freezing cold), snow,and extreme heat. These damn little things didn't even bite. Oh, BI they were on both teams and pitchers also, not just the Yankees. But come on they play ball outside, not in a dome. Granted swarms of midges aren't common enough to practice in, but come on they are just little flies! You don't stop a game for flies!

posted by jojomfd1 at 02:01 AM on October 12, 2007

Now about these bugs, you guys really can't be serious about stopping a game due to what amounts to little flies, can you? These are major league ball players that play in the rain, cold(sometimes freezing cold), snow,and extreme heat. These damn little things didn't even bite. Oh, BI they were on both teams and pitchers also, not just the Yankees. But come on they play ball outside, not in a dome. Little flies? There were THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of these so-called "little flies" which IMO, should have been cause to delay the game until things settled down a bit. Players play in the rain when it's a slight drizzle so if you compare the rain to these "little flies", you would have yourself one hell of a rain storm and there's no way that those umps would've let the game go on. The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians.

posted by BornIcon at 07:37 AM on October 12, 2007

The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians. Do you actually think that happens often enough to be considered a "Home Field advantage"? Give me a break, now you are reachin for an excuse. Or whining, whichever one you want. Thanks Weedy!

posted by jojomfd1 at 08:32 AM on October 12, 2007

But for the record - if baseball playoff games have to be stopped because there are too many bugs flying around the pitcher, then there's something wrong with America But they'll stop it for a little rain? Yeah, that makes sense. Give me a break, now you are reaching for an excuse. Or whining, whichever one you want. jojo, where were they playing? I think it was Cleveland, right? I wasn't serious about that, it was more or less tongue in cheek but I see you took it literal. I am neither "reaching for an excuse" or "whining" since I am no Yankees fan, I was just wondering why the game wasn't delayed a while to see if the swarm of bugs would die down like they do when it rains, so relax there a bit.

posted by BornIcon at 08:50 AM on October 12, 2007

My question is: Why when the Yankees were pretty much swarmed by these Cleveland Indians-trained-to-distract-the-opposition midges, didn't the umps treat it as if it were a weather related situation and delay the game until things seemed as if they were dying down? I just never understood as to why that didn't happen or even considered? Was it a judgment call? Ok we all can pick out the joke in here, about the indians trained blah, blah, blah. This is the first question. What I meant was why didn't they treat it like a rain delay and wait it out? Here is the second. There were THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of these so-called "little flies" which IMO, should have been cause to delay the game until things settled down a bit. Players play in the rain when it's a slight drizzle so if you compare the rain to these "little flies", you would have yourself one hell of a rain storm and there's no way that those umps would've let the game go on. The midges were on both teams but still, this is what you might call home field advantage for the Indians. There is your third. Pretty long joke if you ask me. Plus you sound a lot like Roger Clemens did after game 2, and some of the media wanting to blame the loss on the bugs. Oh, and sorry my keyboard stuckon that one G, here are some extra letters for the next time you decide to correct my spelling. g, t, e, l, i, f, a, e, s, a, s, o, l, h, e.

posted by jojomfd1 at 09:41 AM on October 12, 2007

I think the bugs played a significant part in that game. I think that because the bugs are native to Cleveland that the Indians were acclimated to the bugs. I think that the Indians could draw the bugs to the field. I think that the Indians played the bug ploy to win a critical post-season game. In a word, Midgegate.

posted by irunfromclones at 11:34 AM on October 12, 2007

I asked a simple question which was why wasn't there a delay and seeing that I am actually excited that the Yanks were bounced, you got things twisted. BI, what's the deal with the run on sentence? Seriously man, lay off the grammar and spelling edits. Everyone makes the occasional mistake and it's just plain polite to overlook them.

posted by apoch at 12:42 PM on October 12, 2007

Who here hasn't pointed out someone's misspelled words before? Don't be pissed at me that it so happened to be you this time but now I'm a moron because I asked if the non-delay was a judgement call? Dude, grow up. People that have nothing further to add to the conversation or feels as if they were belittled proceed to call people names....that or kids do so. Which are you? As apoch suggested, it's a low-class way to try to win points. The reason I called it our is because there's a word you constantly misspell (it escapes me right now) that drives me crazy, but I never mention it. If we're going to be that way: 1. Call me a prescriptivist, but I prefer "misspelt" as the past tense of "misspell", even if Firefox's spell-checker doesn't know it. 2. Your second sentence is a rhetorical question. Don't do that. 3. Answering your own rhetorical question (sentence 3) and putting words in your opponent's mouth to boot is truly poor form. 4. Sentence 4 is an abomination of a run-on sentence. Worse yet, it lacks for punctuation where the two sentences smash into each other. Perhaps the comma was thrown clear in the mayhem. 5. Sentence 5 is useless. Cut that. 6. Oh, sentence 6. Where to begin? Well, let's start with the easy part: an ellipsis typically consists of 3 dots and they are placed a space apart. Second, there isn't a coherent sentence in either end of this. I can tease out what you mean, but it's near-nonsensical and again speaking for your opponent. spiel: n. A lengthy or extravagant speech or argument usually intended to persuade. n. a usually high-flown talk or speech, esp. for the purpose of luring people to a movie, a sale, etc.; pitch. v. to speak extravagantly. Maybe you meant "rant" and not "spiel", but I fail to see how run-on sentences are required for either.

posted by yerfatma at 02:05 PM on October 12, 2007

It's a rule: all posts on spelling and grammar must contain a mistake. See also: hubris.

posted by yerfatma at 03:34 PM on October 12, 2007

In my book, a guy that takes the team to the playoffs every single season for 12 years and to the World Series six times in eight years (winning four) gets to manage the team as long as he wants.

posted by kirkaracha at 05:26 PM on October 12, 2007

In my book, a guy that takes the team to the playoffs every single season for 12 years and to the World Series six times in eight years (winning four) gets to manage the team as long as he wants. You'd like to think that would be the way all the time. I guess big George is the exception to the rule, and he may just prove it once again.

posted by jojomfd1 at 05:56 PM on October 12, 2007