May 31, 2007

I have to admit, watching the game live my first instinct was to laugh at the play. I knew immediately what happened, and I thought it was funny. Admittedly, I definitely wouldn't have thought so if I was rooting for the Jays (or any team but the Yankees). But there are two points that I think make A-Rod's actions defensible (and anyone who knows me knows I am no apologist for A-Rod). 1. The only reason this plays out the way it did is because McDonald didn't take command of the play. With runners circling, the third baseman should be released to cover the bag (yes, even with two outs). If McDonald got involved in the play immediately, as he should have, then Clark (who was clearly anticipating the likelihood of being called off or he wouldn't have budged from the pop up) would have already been out of the scene. McDonald wouldn't have been scared off by A-Rod (if he's any kind of professional) because nobody on his team trumps him on that pop up. 2. Given the opportunity, every team rattles the opposing defense on pop ups and ground balls. Runners hesitate to shield fielders from ground balls, bench jockeys yell at catchers and corner fielders when they approach the dugout on pop ups. A-Rod himself said that he gets the same treatment several times a week on pop ups. I think it's a hard sell to say that it's more bush league to use the trick than it is to fall for it given how often players resort to that sort of tactic generally speaking. A-Rod's had a few of these eyebrow-raisers since coming over to the Yanks. It's evident that he wants to be known as somebody who plays to win regardless of the personal cost of professionalism. It's not the way I play the game, but I respect the motive even if I think the means are of dubious honor. It's definitely not the "Yankee Way" (if such a thing exists) and it was pretty apparent that Torre and many of the players interviewed afterwards were a little embarrassed by it. In summary, if choosing between bush league or genius, I'll go with bush league, but I think letting the ball drop was equivalent on that scale -- A-Rod's not the only one who let professionalism slip. Yes, it exposed the Yankees for what they are -- a desperate team looking for sparks to get them going. However, the way Mariano looked in the ninth, I don't think the play factored at all into the final outcome of the game. I do think it pushed A-Rod one more foot out the Yankee door he was already exiting. And in a vacuum, the play is very funny.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 01:08 AM on May 31, 2007

As a dyed-in-the-wool Met fan, any negative publicity the Yankees receive is welcome news. That being said, I agree with the Sousepaw. Anyone who has played even Little League knows that the shortstop should've taken control of the pop-up, either calling off the third baseman immediately, or at the very least, going over and covering 3B. Hey, these guys are the elite of the elite and earning money I can only dream about. Just because someone yells out "your mother wears army boots", doesn't make him the antichrist. Barreling into a catcher on a play at the plate is no more sportman-like, yet you don't hear anyone complaining about that.

posted by FishingDr at 04:23 AM on May 31, 2007

If indeed A-Rod tried to distract the fielder by yelling "I got it", or anything else for that matter, he has committed interference. In that case the runner could be called out (since it would have been the 3rd out of the inning) and all runners returned to the bases occupied. A-Rod has done this too many times to consider it as "genius" or just run-of-the-mill hard play. Remember the "purse slap" at Bronson Arroyo in the 2004 ALCS? He got caught on that one, and had the umpires been paying attention, he would have been caught on this evening's play. One of these days he will piss someone off to the point that he is wearing a baseball in his ear or a set of spikes in his legs.

posted by Howard_T at 05:14 AM on May 31, 2007

If indeed A-Rod tried to distract the fielder by yelling "I got it", or anything else for that matter, he has committed interference. It's baseball, where we celebrate all things nefarious, outfielders pretending a ball is catchable to freeze the runner, infielders faking a tag to get a runner to slide while the ball's still a ways away, managers stealing signs, etc. Do we need Sarbanes-Oxley in baseball?

posted by yerfatma at 06:04 AM on May 31, 2007

Great play by A-Rod. Poor Blue Jays, stop the whining, it's pathetic. As Sousepaw pointed out (and he's absolutely correct), if McDonald took command of the play and Clark covered 3rd, none of this would have happened. McDonald would've known that it was his play to make and no one would've been able to call him off. Bush league or genius, either way it worked and the Yanks finally won a game. I'm no Yankee supporter by any stretch but A-Rod is showing that he'll do anything to win and he just doesn't give a damn who likes what he does in order to get that win. Funny stuff.

posted by BornIcon at 06:48 AM on May 31, 2007

I agree that the fact Toronto is making such a big deal about it makes them look like little T-ball players. I'm embarrassed for them. The idea the thing actually worked only points to the inexperience of the players involved. That it happended in their own ballpark is ridiculous, also. Lets face it, at this point the Yankees need to pull out every trick in the book to start winning some games. I doubt the same thing would fake out someone such as Eric Chavez, for example.

posted by dyams at 07:08 AM on May 31, 2007

People pull moves like this in every sport all the time. I played hockey, and players will always tap their stick or call for passes from the opposing team if the guy isn't looking or if they're trailing the play into the zone. It works once in a blue moon, which is why people still do it. In baseball, something like this is a lot less likely to work for many reasons, which is why we don't really see it that often. But in this case, a rookie who doesn't know his teammate's voice well, a shortstop not doing his job properly, and a baserunner who has played both positions in a 10+ year career all came together to make a really silly play. I'd be willing to bet that if someone spent time reviewing tape of baserunners (a fun task to be sure) they'd find several instances of runners doing the same thing. It just doesn't work because the infielders don't usually fall for it. Sure, it's a little bit on the side of bush league, but it was also a pretty heads-up play to process the situation and time it right like that. He'll get drilled in July, and he'll deserve it, and that'll be the end of it. Just like when Phelps bowled over Johjima earlier this month. What I thought was BS wasn't the actual play, but his lame ass explanation afterwards about saying "ha!" Look, it's obvious what he did, why not just own up to it? Most people already hate him, he might as well just be honest and embrace it.

posted by Bernreuther at 07:42 AM on May 31, 2007

Good idea on A-Rod's part. Not one if his fans but you play to win the game. The part about it's not if you win or lose but how you play the game is bogus. If that were so why do we keep score. Reminds me of playing LL and yelling watch out for the tricylce to an outfielder who practiced with me alot in my yard and there were always tricycles and wagons around. Yeah, he looked for the tricycle and missed my fly ball. Nobody beat me up for it and I heard it alot through out the years at second base. It is part of the game. Live with it and move on.

posted by coach at 08:06 AM on May 31, 2007

It's a chump move. Like his weird slap at Arroyo, Rodriguez has once again put himself in the category of the obvious cheat. There's an art to unproven cheats that give you an edge in sport -- I grew up idolizing Gaylord Perry and love football players who play dirty to get the fumble in a pileup -- but doing something that gets you caught in 10 seconds degrades the game and makes you look foolish. He couldn't even pull off an enigmatic response after the game, resorting instead to a dumb lie. Lovable scamp he ain't.

posted by rcade at 08:27 AM on May 31, 2007

interfering with a extraordinarily routine infield play. He didn't interfere. Yelling "mine" or "ha" or anything is perfectly fine. Like MGDADDYO points out, it's gamesmanship. The problem was that Clark is a rookie (his first game) and isn't sure of who was saying what on the field. In about 2 months, he would have recognized McDonald's voice (or Clayton's, the other SS on the Jays) and known that he wasn't the one calling him off. It's not bush league. It's not interference. It's taking advantage of a rookie. I'd say it's about the same level as getting someone out with the "hidden ball" trick. There are three opinions about this play I'll probably ignore: - rabid Yankee fans - rabid Jays fans - rabid Red Sox fans No impartiality can be expected from those groups in this matter.

posted by grum@work at 09:00 AM on May 31, 2007

It's a chump move. So what else in baseball would be considered a "chump move?" When a runner intentionally stands in the way of a ground ball until the last second in an effort to distract the fielder? When a player sliding into home plate tries to kick the ball away from the catchers glove? When, after a pickoff attempt, a first baseman doesn't throw the ball back to the pitcher, but instead fakes the throw and attempts another quick tag of the runner? It's almost like all the kids of a little league team yelling "SWING" when a pitch is coming at a batter, the batter swinging, and the coach arguing the player only swung at the pitch because the opposing players distracted him into doing so. Good players don't fall for these things. Players who do are often selling insurance a year or two down the road.

posted by dyams at 09:06 AM on May 31, 2007

It's a chump move. Like his weird slap at Arroyo, Rodriguez has once again put himself in the category of the obvious cheat. how is it cheating if it's not against the rules? it's not like he's the first player in the game to ever do this. it just happened to work in this instance. if the roles were reversed and A-Rod is the one who got fooled, let the pop up go and then complained about it everyone would be calling him a whiny little bitch. and personally i'd be pissed off that a Yankee fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book. i've seen comments on blogs calling for Alex to get beaned in the head next time they play Toronto. seriously? for this shit? if he didn't get hit the day after the Pedroia play (which i will readily admit was a bullshit play on A-Rod's part) there's no way to justify him getting hit for distracting a fielder. that would be bush league. It's definitely not the "Yankee Way" (if such a thing exists) i don't think it exists. it's like the myth of new players having to "earn their pinstripes". i think there's a "Torre Way" however, and that's where people get confused. like his refusal to brushback opposing batters while his superstars continually get plunked. or not having the team bunt in game 6 of the 2004 ALCS to test schilling's frakenankle on the wet grass.

posted by goddam at 09:09 AM on May 31, 2007

It may have been borderline bush league, but he should have embraced it. He should have taken grum's stance and just admitted that he was trying to take advantage of a rookie. Then, maybe everyone would have laughed it off. If A-Rod thinks it is something worthy of lying about, then it makes it more suspect.

posted by bperk at 09:13 AM on May 31, 2007

Shouldn't you know the voice of your teammates and not fall for such a play to begin with?

posted by dbt302 at 09:33 AM on May 31, 2007

Come on. I thought the play itself was pretty funny. Can we all admit that at least? Also, I thought his comments made him sound like a complete fool. Just own up to what you did. Finally, having watched the video, I love the section from like 2:30-3:00 where ARod has this little smirk on his face, as though he's thinking about how everyone in the clubhouse will give him mad props after the game. (Does anyone still use "mad props?")

posted by edub1321 at 09:41 AM on May 31, 2007

It may have been borderline bush league, but he should have embraced it. Agreed. I have no idea why he doesn't just own up to it. He half does it. "We need a win any way possible" And then backs off. "I have no idea of my intentions" I agree word for word with rcade, and grum two in that it's difficult to comment without bias. That said, I disagree with grum that this isn't bush league. It's the very definition of bush league. If you refuse to call this bush league, then the phrase is useless. That doesn't mean you have to think it was wrong, or that A-Rod should be embarrassed. But it is what it is. I love the section from like 2:30-3:00 where ARod has this little smirk on his face I thought that was hilarious also. Without it, I agree with goddam, no need to throw at the guy. With it, if it was my team, he'd be eating dirt. The rookie playing third base -- who has 16 years in the minors -- said it's never happened to him before. Yeah, I'm not quite getting the "it happens all the time" angle. It doesn't. Things happen like it, but not that.

posted by justgary at 09:43 AM on May 31, 2007

Why does A Rod need to win stupid? He's one of the most gifted athletes in the game. You are correct to state that Alex is "one of the most gifted athletes in the game" but regardless, the Yanks were on a 5-game skid and were desperate for a win and did not want to get swept by the Blue Jays. I honestly can not believe that I'm actually defending the Yankees on this but the bottom line is, the played worked and the Yanks picked up the W which is all that matters. Finally, having watched the video, I love the section from like 2:30-3:00 where ARod has this little smirk on his face, as though he's thinking about how everyone in the clubhouse will give him mad props after the game. (Does anyone still use "mad props?") I thought that was pretty funny too. He does in fact get 'mad props' in my book.

posted by BornIcon at 09:49 AM on May 31, 2007

I bet this happens almost every game but most players are smart enough not to fall for it. hey batter batter batter batter batter swing batter.

posted by Debo270 at 09:55 AM on May 31, 2007

(If he can pull this off a couple more times that is...)

posted by edub1321 at 09:57 AM on May 31, 2007

I bet this happens almost every game but most players are smart enough not to fall for it. Well debo270, I can believe you or others that have, you know, actually played the game. (I don't get this. How do you read about players saying they've never heard of this, managers, announcers, etc. and then say "I bet it happens almost every game". Do you actually read the thread or the links?) And shouldn't we be lauding ARod's skill to go from first to third on such a short ball? Two outs, hitters going on contact, high pop fly, nothing unusual, run-of-the-mill play, nothing to laud.

posted by justgary at 10:05 AM on May 31, 2007

Gary, I for one don't really believe the opposing manager or an announcer with an axe to grind when he says he has never seen anything like this. And as a former athlete, I did see stuff like that. This is not noteworthy because it was the first time someone has yelled something, it's noteworthy because it's the first time anyone can remember someone yelling something and actually having it work. And because it's ARod. While we're on the subject, what would Jackie Chiles say? "That's deplorable, unfathomable, improbable!" "It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous!"

posted by Bernreuther at 10:25 AM on May 31, 2007

I'd take what Bowa says with a grain of salt, but from the Times: Rodriguez singled in the ninth to make it 7-5, and his verbal interference with Clark allowed the Yankees to pile on. The third base coach, Larry Bowa, said that Rodriguez did not cross a line of good sportsmanship. “If you say, ‘I got it,’ I think that’s very unacceptable,” Bowa said. “He didn’t say, ‘I got it.’ He said, ‘Hey, hey.’ They parted like the Red Sea.” Gibbons said he told Rodriguez he thought it was a bush league play, which Bowa also heard. But Rodriguez claimed not to hear anything that Gibbons or McDonald said, and not to care, either." It's not that hard to find someone who can read lips to refute that. It looked an awful lot like "mine" to me. Still, the Jays shouldn't have been parting like the red sea.

posted by Bernreuther at 10:34 AM on May 31, 2007

I think it's ok to discount the actual aggrieved parties' opinions a bit regardless of whether they've played the game. Some Yankees comments then. Johnny Damon said he didn't think that was allowed. Joe Torre said he didn't know what to think of the play. No inkling in those comments that it was a common occurrence.

posted by bperk at 10:41 AM on May 31, 2007

Here's an angle for ya': "There's no cryin' in baseball." And I'm no Rodriguez fan.

posted by THX-1138 at 10:56 AM on May 31, 2007

We're not allowed to be skeptical of Blue Jays and talking heads now? Neither one of us is trying to claim anything as a fact. You could be wrong, and we could be wrong too. It's likely the latter. I'm just not going to automatically take the word of the guy who was duped or his teammates.

posted by Bernreuther at 11:09 AM on May 31, 2007

And yerfatma gave you more than just "I think they're full of shit." The rest of what you said wasn't relevant to what I was saying. I was mostly conceding the point anyway.

posted by Bernreuther at 11:19 AM on May 31, 2007

Well I guess then it is a question of ethics in baseball and we all know how ethical the MLB is. I need to go take my HGH and some greenies and when I come back from placing a bet on the dugout phone, we can talk about how etical the sport is. If it worked, good, try it again. I hate the Yankees but I think i t was a great move. Kind of like the barking dog play in football

posted by Debo270 at 11:27 AM on May 31, 2007

I hate the Yankees but I think i t was a great move. Kind of like the barking dog play in football I think that was in the high school basketball game.

posted by grum@work at 11:32 AM on May 31, 2007

What is the argument here? That not everybody does it? I think that's a given. That only A-Rod does it? That is totally ridiculous. I still play. Up until two years ago, I played in a 30+ league made up primarily of former minor league and semi-pro players. On pop ups, everybody's screaming -- runners, base coaches, benches. It's a matter of course. As a shortstop, I would play against some teams that would yell "cut four" when I went out for a relay to keep me from throwing their guy out at second base. And sometimes it worked. It's bush league, but guys do it. Not all guys, but enough that you need to keep your guard up against it. That's why I blame McDonald -- he's got to be communicating with his third baseman and not just standing there like a statue watching the play develop. Again, I don't subscribe to A-Rod's practices, but he is far, far from the only guy in the league who would attempt this. You just can't alter your normal pace in order to impede the fielder. And yet you see it done routinely in ballgames. Almost every game. I saw that very play last night. Here's another one -- the Dodger move. Baserunners attempting to steal are taught to watch the front heel of a right-handed pitcher. If you see that heel, you go, because a pitcher can't lift that leg and come to first. Well, the Dodgers, quite a while back, figured out that the best way to pick off a runner was to break your front knee slightly, show the heel very briefly, then make your pickoff move. It's a balk move, but if you make it look like one fluid motion it's rare that an umpire will call the balk. More often than not you will catch the runner leaning and have a greatly improved chance of picking him off.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:40 AM on May 31, 2007

You just can't alter your normal pace in order to impede the fielder. And yet you see it done routinely in ballgames. Almost every game. I saw that very play last night. What game was that? Did the runner stop running and just stand in the way of the fielder?

posted by grum@work at 12:15 PM on May 31, 2007

Theo Epstein: "I'm not sure it's easy to explain ... what's acceptable and what's not acceptable probably goes way back to the early 1900s," Epstein said. "I guess you just want to be on the right side of that and not on the wrong side of that ... certain things certainly get the ire of the opposition."

posted by YukonGold at 12:27 PM on May 31, 2007

Does anyone else see the connection between A-Rod & Kobe Bryant? You must be listening to the Dan Patrick show on ESPN Radio because that's the exact same question he just asked.

posted by BornIcon at 12:39 PM on May 31, 2007

grum, We did it in football once or twice with a wideout and slot receiver lined up right next to each other. Worked more often then not.

posted by Debo270 at 12:45 PM on May 31, 2007

Couldn't help myself. Column posted.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:48 PM on May 31, 2007

This had me thinking of other ways ARod could get an advantage. I see some opportunities if this is all "gamesmanship". - From the dugout, ARod could try to distract the pitcher by painting a face on his ass and mooning the field. - After being forced out, breaks up completion of double play by grabbing 2B's crotch and saying "HONK! HONK!" - Hinders catcher's attempt to throw out runner to second by yelling "I AM GOING TO TAKE YOUR MOTHER OUT FOR A SEAFOOD DINNER AND NEVER CALL HER AGAIN!!" The possibilities are endless.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:51 PM on May 31, 2007

You don't believe A-Rod, who seems to have a track record of not owning up to anything, so your'e going to throw out the opinion of 3 or 4 others? 3-4? I'm saying I don't take anything said by a pro athlete to the media at face value. Why is that not ok here? I played from 4 to 19 as a middle infielder and not a single time did a runner on the field ever yell "mine". Every time a baseball question comes up, you hold this out as though it ended all arguments. I played baseball from 6-15, wasn't ever very good at it. Neither of us played in the majors, which would be the only relevant experience, as suggested by goddam's comment above. If we're going to make game experience a pre-requisite to holding an opinion, things are going to get kind of quiet. Either way, how many of you get upset when the catcher blocks the plate? That's expressly against the rules of baseball.

posted by yerfatma at 12:57 PM on May 31, 2007

To me, A Rod's action is like pretending to be hit by a pitch. Anyone could do it, but it's easy to get caught and look like a chump. i think it's more like the hidden ball trick, where the object is to deceive the opposing team. pretending to get hit by the pitch is deceiving the umpire.

posted by goddam at 01:22 PM on May 31, 2007

that's because there are rules about verbal obstruction (both by fielders and runners) at the little league and high school levels. not so at the major league level. posted by goddam I disagree. Yes, that's the rule, but it doesn't affect play. The rule isn't what's preventing it. How many little league players/ high school players even know that rule? High school players aren't running around the bases thinking "I'd love to yell 'I got it' but there's a rule against it. And most little league looks like a version of the bad news bears. Rules end up being anything goes. I played from 4 - 23 years of age and I can honestly tell you that this does happen a lot. It may not get a lot of coverage but when it does happen, the opposition makes a big deal out of it. Well, I've never heard of it. So far, every player today I've heard speak on the subject hasn't heard of it. Damon hasn't heard of it. If the opposition makes a big deal about it, it should be easy to find with today's coverage. Show me one time in a major league game that it's been made a big deal. If it happens all the time and the opposition makes a big deal about it it should be easy to find an example to prove your case. Every time a baseball question comes up, you hold this out as though it ended all arguments. I'll make a mental note that it irritates you. Now that that's done, please show me where I said it ended the argument. It was one point in a series of points. Discard that one since it gets under your skin, and I still feel the others stand. Much more so than your bizarre equation of ballplayers using cliches with the bluejays lying. If we're going to make game experience a pre-requisite to holding an opinion, things are going to get kind of quiet. Again, not sure what you're reading. If you're taking simply bringing up personal experience as saying others without it can't have an opinion, that's your deal, not mine. Neither of us played in the majors, which would be the only relevant experience I disagree. Baseball at a certain level looks the same other than the talent. At 15 players are still chattering "batta batta batta swing" so the comparsion wouldn't be as appropriate. Regardless, I'll get off the "it happens all the time" argument by saying I simply don't believe it. If people want to believe blue-jay announcers, coaches, and players are all lying about this even though it happens all the time, and this is the first time at the major league level that anyone can remember it working even though it happens all the time, and the team stayed in the dugout staring at A-Rod after the last out when it happens all the time, and Torre and Damon seemed lost when asked about the play, a play that happens all the time, and every player I've heard on talk radio today says it doesn't happen, and people still want to believe happens all the time, then we'll agree to disagree. Leaving that behind I can't quite get a grip on how I feel about the play. It's no doubt bush league, but I wonder how I'd feel if Mile Lowell, a man I have much love for and master of the hidden ball trick, pulled the same stunt. As far as the Yankee way, I don't think it exists, and at the same time can't imagine Posada, Bernie, or Jeter doing what A-Rod did.

posted by justgary at 02:00 PM on May 31, 2007

Show me one time in a major league game that it's been made a big deal. Are you certain the reactions from all these ballplayers is that it isn't attempted, as opposed to "I've never seen it work?" The bait is much more forgettable if nobody bites. I don't remember the fake-to-third-throw-to-first move beyond the next inning unless it actually works. The ones that work I remember for years.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:30 PM on May 31, 2007

"if a player gets distracted from someone yelling (at whatever is yelled), then they weren't really focused. A player should should be able to distinguish his teammates voice from someone else's" That's quite possibly the biggest bunch of manure in this entire thread. As a 3B, you're supposed to have your ears open to being called off on this kind of play. And, you're conveniently ignoring that this was Clark's first game, making it pretty friggin' hard to distinguish voices on the field. Does McDonald play a part in this debacle - absolutely. But, just because he f'd up doesn't even come close to justifying what A-Rod did. And to blame Clark in any way is about as misguided as anything I've ever heard. In general, I agree with Crafty. Except that I take a slightly stronger stance than excusing this because there are many other players that would do this. I don't care how many would do it - it's bush, it's cheap, and it's a dumbass way to make the focus on yourself be about your idiocy versus what an incredible player you could be. And, if there's a rule in the book that could remotely be used to "punish" A-Rod or whoever, then that rule should be applied. And, justgary - great question about "how would I feel if my favorite player did it". It's easy to say this in a vacuum, but I'd have to think that by itself, this kind of play would make me shake my head "oh, that was pretty dumb, Griffey, but I'll shrug this one off". On the other hand, when the player has a history of being a cheap-shot artist, that's a different story.

posted by littleLebowski at 02:35 PM on May 31, 2007

Boston fans are pissed off because it was a Yankee who caused them to lose the game because of the play by A Rod...Grow up and shut up..It is part of the game and if you think it doesn't go on everyday then I can sell you some swampland in Arizona very cheap...The Boston players involved should be getting a real good laugh at themselves because they are major leaguers and got caught up in something a 9 year old does. It worked and I am sure they wish they had did it first. If the umpires started calling any kind of vocal interference than they had better call it on every catcher in baseball because the catcher and batters are always talking to one another, same thing here, except nobody is making a big deal about it. During Sandy Koufax's last no hitter the perfect game, he told the last 5 or 6 batters what was coming is that interference. I am not a Boston fan or a Yankee fan but you guys have to grow up and quit acting like 9 year olds, but we all know that is not going to happen now or in the future. The history of this action goes back most likely to the very beginning of baseball. Concentration is the underlying key. To do well you have to be able to shutout all the outsides sounds and voices.........Sore Losers period here but wait until the next time they play in Boston I am sure all hell will break lose when A Rod appears at the plate or in the field..

posted by The Old Man at 03:20 PM on May 31, 2007

It's all those "Yankees Suck" jerseys on sale on Brookline Avenue, jg -- makes you all look alike.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:24 PM on May 31, 2007

... I can sell you some swampland in Arizona very cheap ... In Arizona? Climate change is happening faster than I thought.

posted by rcade at 03:26 PM on May 31, 2007

I wish we could favorite comments around here, THX. That was gold.

posted by jerseygirl at 03:33 PM on May 31, 2007

yelling at a fielder whilst circling the bases will earn you a fastball in the ear hole or a nice facewash with the glove I will concede, and should have clarified earlier, that there is a big difference between the leagues I've played in and pro ball (other than the obvious quality of play). The guys I play with have to go to their real jobs the next day, and everyone is aware of that. Regardless of the circumstances, players who are inclined to actions that threaten the health and safety of other players (like throwing at batters) get squashed pretty quickly, much moreso than those that ignore other mores. I don't yell for the purpose of deception, period. If a teammate does it, he gets the look Johnny Damon gave last night when he was asked about it -- it embarrasses the team. If an opponent does it, I keep my mouth shut and play the game. The other team is either going to take care of it or not -- if not, they are endorsing the behavior, and no words from me are likely to change that behavior. That's how A-Rod's situation should be handled. If the Yankees are collectively embarrassed by A-Rod's behavior -- and I like to think that they are -- they'll do what they can to discourage it. Fine him, if necessary. If A-Rod is going to continue with these oddball stunts, he will likely find himself out of pinstripes sooner than he thought. Either way, I just can't see him back with the Yankees in 2008. His collective behaviors are bordering on disgracing the team. To do well you have to be able to shutout all the outsides sounds and voices. Ridiculous. I don't know why this keeps getting brought up. It's not like he's demonstrating rabbit ears, he's listening for calls from his teammates. Disregarding them turns the whole field into demolition derby. During Sandy Koufax's last no hitter the perfect game, he told the last 5 or 6 batters what was coming is that interference. I was just talking to my dad about the play, and we were remembering stories of how Carlton Fisk used to say things to batters (or just out loud to himself) to throw hitters off. One pitch he'd say, "Maybe we should go with a curveball here" and a fastball would come. Fisk would go out to the mound like he got crossed up. Then he'd come back and say, "Geez, let's try that curveball again." At that point, it really didn't matter what the pitcher threw, the batter was pretty much done.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 03:59 PM on May 31, 2007

Could it be A-Rod is the ''Say Ha Kid''?

posted by tommybiden at 04:53 PM on May 31, 2007

Unwritten rules aren't worth the paper they're written on. Who said that?

posted by THX-1138 at 04:54 PM on May 31, 2007

I think yerfatma put it quite well.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:59 PM on May 31, 2007

Just so we're clear, I'm not holding out. I'm just asking others to hold me. Like Aha. Which brings me to this -- yerfatma, you're a jerk. If you're capable of writing posts as intelligent, thoughtful and insightful as the one you just posted and you continue to satisfy yourself with one-liners that serve only to sharpen your sardonic wit, you are cheating the site by not bringing what you have to the party. Do what you want. If there were more posts, generally, like your last one, I'd like this place a lot more. I know we're only supposed to complain about a member's behavior via e-mail, but I gotta get this off my chest. In sum, you're holding out, and you're asking others to hold out. Geez, a simple little bush play. Fucking A-Rod. Is there anything he can't break? What a guy. Causes a busted pop-up and destroys our online community. I tells ya. The guy is just not good fun.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:00 PM on May 31, 2007

I often refer to my background when I discuss issues here. Not to brag. Not to load my words. It's context that I feel is relevant to the issues. I don't understand why justgary . . . should give the impression we are pulling our viewpoints from air and pretend there is no experience that leads us to these observations. No, it shouldn't at all, sometimes it just feels like that experience is wielded like a shield or to try to gain a better position from which to argue. yerfatma, you're a jerk. If you're capable of writing posts as intelligent, thoughtful and insightful as the one you just posted and you continue to satisfy yourself with one-liners I was with you up through "you're a jerk". The rest I have to disagree with. I worked through my thoughts while walking the dog and it all fell apart before we got home. You can ask her. There was a part about Barry Bonds being a lot like Ted Williams (drugs to one side), but I lost it. I suppose like prophets in their own country, great players are appreciated everywhere except in their own time. ya know, now would probably be a good time for erkno11 to chime in. Seems like anytime would be. Haven't heard from him since last summer. I did renew our sponsorship of his baseball-reference page.

posted by yerfatma at 07:19 PM on May 31, 2007

yerfatma, you're my most favorite poster of all time!

posted by qbert72 at 08:08 PM on May 31, 2007

I've never seen The Cheater's Guice to Baseball before this set of links. It rocks. Thank you, just gary!

posted by Joey Michaels at 08:27 PM on May 31, 2007

I've never understood why throwing at a guy's head is the best response. It's pretty easy to get out of the way of a high heater. The part that I don't get is retaliating for a baserunner yelling at a fielder with an action that could seriously injure someone. Huh?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:59 PM on May 31, 2007

Wow, a lot more anger about this than I imagined. This type of play comes up every now and then. When it works people get sideways over it. If it doesn't work, it isn't even mentioned. I remember Kent Hrbek with the Twins pulling a guy off first base in the 91 World Series. From the TV angle it was pretty clear that he pulled the guy off base, but the umpire was screened on the play and called the runner out. In a post game interview Hrbek laughed it off. His teammates called it good baseball, Braves fans thought it was cheating. No, correction, they still think it was cheating....here's a blog that shows some of them are still upset 16 years later! http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2007/1/15/135925/547

posted by dviking at 12:04 AM on June 01, 2007

I can't give you the date, nor the names of the batter or opposing team, but I remember seeing NY Mets backup catcher Duffy Dyer do the same thing in the early 1970s. Bottom of the eighth inning, two outs and Dyer on first. The batter popped the ball up on the third-base side, and here comes Dyer barreling around the bases, yelling "I got it! I got it!" The third-baseman and shortstop both backed off, and Dyer scored. He was yelling so loud that the TV mikes even picked it up, and Lindsey Nelson started laughing and made a comment on it. Poor sportsmanship? Perhaps, but certainly no worse than today's steroid-fueled home run batters. At least Dyer (and A-Rod) were doing it for the team, not their personal gain or glory.

posted by billinnagoya at 01:16 AM on June 01, 2007

Players are thrown at for stealing second with a big lead, for gazing at a home run for too long, for being too comfortable at the plate and therefore too successful. If you believe hitters shouldn't be thrown at, that's fine. But if you believe it's ok on certain matters, this would be an easy one. Oh, I'm not saying do it for some things and not for others. So-called "retaliation" by throwing at a batter is something that's always bothered me about baseball: that it's accepted and even expected. If someone gets sent to the brain injury ward as the result of this "retaliation", I predict a lot of people are going to be shaking their heads and saying, "What were we thinking?"

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:55 AM on June 01, 2007

That's part of the game. If you ever actually played baseball, there wouldn't even be a discussion about that. An Appeal to Authority! Only those who have "actually played baseball" can possibly know what's "part of the game", while those of us who wanted to play but were barred because of gender and could only watch will remain forever in the darkness of ignorance. Thanks for straightening that out. A hit to the head is just deplorable and any pitcher with those intentions do not belong in the game. And yet it's "part of the game" to "shove it in his ear" -- which, last I checked, was firmly attached to the head? Please explain this apparent contradiction to this ignorant non-player.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:55 AM on June 01, 2007

Keep digging, BI, we're bound to strike oil.

posted by yerfatma at 07:56 AM on June 01, 2007

I wish I had some popcorn. God damn carbs.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:35 AM on June 01, 2007

Nice pup, yerfatma. Always liked beagles.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:36 AM on June 01, 2007

hawkguy, this might help: Sportsfilter: People Offended This Week

posted by yerfatma at 08:45 AM on June 01, 2007

An Appeal to Authority! Only those who have "actually played baseball" can possibly know what's "part of the game", while those of us who wanted to play but were barred because of gender and could only watch will remain forever in the darkness of ignorance. Thanks for straightening that out. I agree entirely with the principle of this argument - you don't have to be a big leaguer to know what's what for the most part. However, in the case where you reject the idea of throwing at a batter as retribution is puzzling. Obviously you've seen this before. Obviously you're aware of the storied tradition of batters getting hit because they transgressed. I've always thought of it as waranted in some cases, or simply a part of the game.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:56 AM on June 01, 2007

Yeah, I'm with lbb here (as I understand her): there's a world of difference between throwing at someone and throwing at their head. One means a week's trouble sitting down, the other could mean a life ruined.

posted by yerfatma at 09:56 AM on June 01, 2007

I also think that one day, something's gonna happen You mean like somebody getting their career cut short? Or killed? I have my doubts that the practice is going away anytime soon.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:11 AM on June 01, 2007

I also think that one day, something's gonna happen Yeah, I don't think it's comparable to hits-to-the-head in the NHL, where there's such a strategic advantage to concussing your opponent that players are now trained to catch at least some of the head on every hit, and that it's worth the risk of an elbowing penalty. That's something that has been evolving for a couple of decades, along with tons of other variables in a changing game. But in baseball, the basic principles of the game are too static to allow for that kind of escalation. I'd bet that there's no signifiant variance between HBP trends twenty years ago and now, and if I had the cash, I'd hire grum to prove it for me.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 10:29 AM on June 01, 2007

You mean like somebody getting their career cut short? Or killed? Exactly so. Very few of today's baseball fans were alive when Ray Chapman died, and a good many would have been in diapers at most when Thon was hit. History, for many, does not exist beyond their personal memories, so I still think that it would provoke a change in the attitude of acceptance. Would the practice go away altogether? No, but in the aftermath of such an incident, I'll bet you a homemade blueberry pie that there would be a great many people suddenly appalled at the practice. Whether that reaction makes any sense is another matter. For a time, things would be different, as teams and pitchers sought to avoid at least the appearance of going for the head. Then we'd probably be back to where we are now, as audiences regard the whole thing as an exciting spectacle, no more.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:41 AM on June 01, 2007

99.9 percent of the time I'm against throwing at anyone's head. If a pitcher doesn't have enough control to keep it away from his head he shouldn't be the one to retaliate (I also have a problem with clemens, pedro, etc. being tough guys in a league with the DH, but that's another story). That said, it would be hard to feel sorry for A-Rod in this case. When you're throwing elbows and yelling "mine" you're choosing your own fate.

posted by justgary at 11:21 AM on June 01, 2007

Sportsfilter: one day, something's gonna happen Finally, a provable statement.

posted by yerfatma at 11:52 AM on June 01, 2007

dyams, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:06 PM on June 01, 2007

Do you really think another Ray Chapman wouldn't cause a dramatic shift in how the league treats chin music and retaliatory beanings? These guys wear armor compared to the cloth-headed Chapman. Pitchers are in greater danger from comebackers smacking them in the face. I don't think this is much of a question of saefty as some believe. I think chucking one at A-Rod (either behind him, at the feet, or give him the chin music) is entirely appropriate as a response. He plays the game. He knows the potential repercussions. I'd be interested to see how many Yankees leap to his defence (though my guess is they will - grudgingly perhaps - but they will).

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:10 PM on June 01, 2007

I'd be interested to see how many Yankees leap to his defence (though my guess is they will - grudgingly perhaps - but they will). if he does get plunked i could see Scott Proctor throwing at someone if only to get another suspension so Torre can't use him for a few days.

posted by goddam at 12:31 PM on June 01, 2007

More players have weighed in, and the response has been mixed. Cardinals infielder Aaron Miles said it was "out of bounds", Omar Vizquel said you couldn't get away with it "unless you were a Yankee player", and Indians manager Eric Wedge wouldn't want his players doing it. However, Charlie Sheen is sorry he didn't think of it, Barry Bonds says it's sour grapes, and White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen called it a "smart play." The difference I see is this -- the guys who are against it I respect, and the guys who say it was a good play ...

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:33 PM on June 01, 2007

Jewish carpenters, I think. How the raygun fits in, I'm still working on.

posted by yerfatma at 12:54 PM on June 01, 2007

Last time I checked, MLB does not have a verbal interference rule. So all of this argueing is for nothing. Plus, when a guy is up to bat we are all taught from the age of 5 to scream stuff at them to take away their concentration, its part of the game. The guy made a rookie play and is trying to whine about it.. nuff said

posted by warstda at 01:06 PM on June 01, 2007

but c'mon, justgary - that was supposed to be "nuff said" Even then, chatter that is intended to be mildly annoying to an 8-year-old is a far cry from something that could seriously damage the game and players. What happens if all players have to become accustomed to these bush-league shenanigans and ignore every single "mine" call, even from their teammates? ... Crafty put it best - "demolition derby".

posted by littleLebowski at 01:33 PM on June 01, 2007

and as an umpire, I would have ruled Rodriguez out for attempting to hinder a fielder making a play. that's of course if you actually heard him say something, right? because you can't just go on what Clark said he thought he heard.

posted by goddam at 01:44 PM on June 01, 2007

Some people really have a way to seamlessly insert themselves in an ongoing conversation.

posted by qbert72 at 01:54 PM on June 01, 2007

The difference I see is this -- the guys who are against it I respect, and the guys who say it was a good play ... Isn't that the logo for "This Old House" with Bob Vila?

posted by BornIcon at 02:14 PM on June 01, 2007

There is obviously a reason that the Toronto third baseman has played in the minors for 15 years and this just shows why. If you call it Bush League than you don't know anything about competition or Baseball for that matter. Preposterous. It's a bush play. It doesn't happen all the time and if you think the minors are so vastly different than the majors in terms of the rules, competition and game, then well, I don't know what to tell ya. You're wrong. Wait, I know what to tell you: You sir, are a grade-A Asshat. (I love this thread!)

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:18 PM on June 01, 2007

As a friend of the female gender, I object to the negative connotation associated with "bush" here. Dicks.

posted by yerfatma at 02:45 PM on June 01, 2007

More players have weighed in, and the response has been mixed. Well, you can throw Sheen's opinion out. I'll stay away from Bonds. Ozzie has A.J. on his team, so he'd look stupid not backing A-Rod. And of course, what sticks out to me is that not a single person said it happens all the time, or ever, with Lasorda going back to the 50s/60s to remember anything similar.

posted by justgary at 03:19 PM on June 01, 2007

I guess that after all this my feeling is that I don't have a problem with "Say Ha'ed" yelling at the infielder. Personally I'm going to mentally categorize this as: Spitball/Dodger move/Hidden ball territory. Probably not your proudest moment but you got away with it and don't be surprised if you get plunked next time around. Trixty little 1/4 billionair you.

posted by THX-1138 at 03:46 PM on June 01, 2007

I may have to rethink my position if Ozzie Guillen is on my side.

posted by grum@work at 04:01 PM on June 01, 2007

Please excuse a old man for not completely reading the storyline. The whole situation is making a mountain out of a molehill...Anyone else do that and it doesn't make the papers much less the front page and everyone talking about it online bla bla bla... I maybe old by your standards, almost 93 next Sept and I have been around baseball for almost all of my many many years. What happened to the BlueJays has been so blown out of context. Its silly because what the old timers as you young people call them, Ruth, Hornsby, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams, Jackson, Warner, Grove, Feller and the rest did anything to win games. You don't remember the old pitchers using Jelly, spit, beltbuckets, sandpaper whatever to do things to the balls and bats to get people out or a hit , yeah, it is illegal as hell, but they still did it DAILY EVERYGAME. Gaylord Perry used the spitter jellyball whatever he is in the hall of fame and it is not big deal. I will say it again GROW UP AND SMELL THE ROSES its a game and in this game anything goes to win if you don't get caught not that it is right but that is what has been happening in baseball for years. I am proud to be a fan for so many years but this kind of journalist crap about nothing has to stop. AROD made a play that worked get on with it. The things that people use to yell at Ruth were unbelieveable. Cobb you either loved him or hated him, I guess it is the same with Rose, Williams was loved not only by Boston fans but by America period. DiMaggio was great but he had his problems like all of us. The question everyone seems to center on here is A Rod was it something he shouldn't have done it isn't our call folks..Poor sportsmanship give me a break..Ruth pointing out to center field, Wills telling the firstbaseman he is going to steal second and third and home, that is what baseball is all about. As long as nobody yelled anything wrong at them or kicked something at them or made fun of them for something we have to remember to just sit back and enjoy the game for what it is' It takes me a little longer to sit down and write then you folks but it is fun for me and it makes the days seem longer and more enjoyable. Living on the west coast makes it ever greater because I can see and hear all kinds of games from morning to night now with the TV and all the sports to pick from. It use to be only the radio you could listen to and then it wasn't even near the coverage that it is today. Remembering the first all star game listening on the radio for any information about comes to mind now. We live in a society today that allows us freedom of information about what is happening everywhere but the ability to listen and watch the sports channels is what we are all talking about here on line. I try not to rub anyone noses in things and if I do then you please excuse a old man of being sometimes a little slow. REMEMBER this game is a kids game played by adults for money/fame whatever but it still a simple game of catch and pitch and hit..everybody keep up all the interesting and opinionated comments and phrases

posted by The Old Man at 05:05 PM on June 01, 2007

Torre says A-Rod shouldn't have done it.

posted by bperk at 07:26 PM on June 01, 2007

99 out of 100 times the ball is caught. True. And what is the difference between those 100 chances (or the last 1000 chances, 10,000 chances) and the one we're discussing? If you don't think a well placed "mine" at the right time would knock off a few of those 99, I disagree. If a major league baseball player would have been successful catching a ball, all 170 (!) of these posts would not exist. And if Buckner hadn't let the ball go through his legs that play wouldn't have been discussed for the past 20 years. I don't get your logic. However, with his own manager denouncing the play and not blaming the jays for being upset, I don't think we'll have to worry about discussing any new incidents. For a time, things would be different, as teams and pitchers sought to avoid at least the appearance of going for the head. You might want to talk to your boy Proctor.

posted by justgary at 08:56 AM on June 02, 2007

As a friend of the female gender, I object to the negative connotation associated with "bush" here. Actually I thought that the current administration has given the term "bush league" a whole new lease on life. And a much more negative connotation.

posted by cjets at 12:20 PM on June 02, 2007

If this thread can approach 200 than Bonds hitting number 756 is going to have comments through the roof. Unless of course everyone decides to stop saying the same old crap and just let it pass on by.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:31 PM on June 02, 2007

You sir, are a grade-A Asshat I just got here after a few days, so that really hurts. Actually, I'm just doing my part to help get to 200. As someone who doesn't really have an opinion on this, it's been a hell of a lot of fun to follow along! Keep up the good work.

posted by tahoemoj at 02:20 PM on June 03, 2007