January 14, 2007

Key play of the game: Schottenheimer's inexplicable use of the review flag on a SD fumble, although I don't recall the exact play, when it was clear it was a possession and a fumble/strip of the ball recovered by NE. It wasted a timeout, and proved costly at the end of the game. They have people in the booths who can tell them if it's worth going for, and that one was so obviously not going to be overturned it ended up costing a timeout that was much needed at the end of the 4th. On that last drive that one more timeout to stop the clock might have given SD another play, and a chance to grab another few yards. Even if they don't get a first down on that last part of the drive, they could have gotten one more play in, then spike the ball and possibly a little bit more room that makes that FG successful at the end of regulation. Doesn't get them the win, but that waste of a timeout might have gotten them the loss. Congratulations to NE, who are looking like their usual January selves: eke out something close time and time again, yet they keep winning. I really am curious who in the pick'em will actually choose an Indy team that's looking kind of shabby of late, much less against a NE team that has owned them the last few years. I have to imagine that the Colts were watching this game and home, and really hoping the Chargers would win: can't envy them a week of questions regarding whether they can beat the Patriots- that kind of stuff has to play on your mind.

posted by hincandenza at 08:04 PM on January 14, 2007

Schottenheimer's booth screwed him on the replay challenge. He's not in a position to judge whether the play might have been reversed. Still, though, you gotta wonder when one of the league's winningest all-time coaches will put it together in the playoffs. I was rooting hard for San Diego to meet Indy. That way, at least one postseason curse would be over -- Schottenheimer or Manning.

posted by rcade at 08:21 PM on January 14, 2007

Tom Brady is 12-1 in the playoffs I wonder how many of those games were won by 4 or less. 6 of those 12 games were won by 4 or less -- each of the 3 Super Bowls and 3 divisional contests (including today). • Jan. 14, 2007 - AFC Divisional - New England 24, San Diego 21 • Feb. 6, 2005 - Super Bowl XXXIX - New England 24, Philadelphia 21 • Feb. 1, 2004 - Super Bowl XXXVIII - New England 32, Carolina 29 • Jan. 10, 2004 - AFC Divisional - New England 17, Tennessee 14 • Feb. 3, 2002 - Super Bowl XXXVI - New England 20, St. Louis 17 • Jan. 19, 2002 - AFC Divisional - New England 16, Oakland 13 (OT) [Source] Incidentally, today was the first game of those 6 in which an Adam Vinatieri field goal did not account for the final margin of victory.

posted by holden at 08:32 PM on January 14, 2007

Dammit holden!

posted by hincandenza at 08:35 PM on January 14, 2007

I love this site. I knew all I had to do was ask and voila! Answers abound. Thank you both.

posted by apoch at 08:40 PM on January 14, 2007

I really am curious who in the pick'em will actually choose an Indy team that's looking kind of shabby of late, much less against a NE team that has owned them the last few years. I have to imagine that the Colts were watching this game and home, and really hoping the Chargers would win: can't envy them a week of questions regarding whether they can beat the Patriots- that kind of stuff has to play on your mind. I'll take Indy. As far as owning Indy, Indy has won the last 3 meetings. That monkey fell off a long time ago. I also doubt the colts were rooting for the Chargers because that would have meant the Colts would have had to travel to San Diego. Now they get to play in their dome at home. I don't mean anything negative towards the Pats, but I believe the Colts would much rather be playing this 1 at home than going to cali to face LT.

posted by louisville_slugger at 08:47 PM on January 14, 2007

Slugger, Indy has won the last two, not three. Both were in Foxboro though. Hal, you really think the team that's 9-0 at home this year was rooting for the Chargers to win so they'd have to go on the road and stop LT instead of have a home game next week? Are you serious? I was more surprised about NE punting on 4th and 2 in SD territory early in the 4th than I was by SD going on that 4th and 11. I thought that was a good decision. I've always been pretty firmly in the anti-punt camp. But you can't ask for much worse than what happened on that play. One thing that was painfully clear watching that game: Philip Rivers has no business being on the AFC Pro Bowl squad over Tom Brady. The voters should be embarassed.

posted by Bernreuther at 08:54 PM on January 14, 2007

I'll take Indy. As far as owning Indy, Indy has won the last 3 meetings. That monkey fell off a long time ago. I also doubt the colts were rooting for the Chargers because that would have meant the Colts would have had to travel to San Diego. Now they get to play in their dome at home. The Colts have actually only won the last two meetings -- NE beat the Colts in the 2004 playoffs (actually played in 2005, but after the 2004 season), and the Colts subsequently beat the Patriots in the regular season in 2005 and this year. The big difference here, though (at least as I see it), is that the Colts are at home. Not that that's a huge obstacle for the Patriots, who obviously can and do win on the road, but I think it's a boost for Manning and some of the supporting cast who have looked lost in the playoffs at Foxboro. On preview, what Bernreuther said. What goes around comes around, I suppose.

posted by holden at 08:59 PM on January 14, 2007

I think Brady would rather have another title than a free trip to Hawaii- he can probably go there all he wants in the off-season. Bernreuther: well, not really serious. Obviously they'd rather face the Patriots than the Chargers for all manner of reasons. But you know that they'll also dread the inevitable questions of "You've been here before, and each time the Patriots found a way to beat you. What has changed?" before the game. Then again, that may prove to be a motivator. In any event, I expect a close game between these two. And I do question anyone who picks Indy in our pick'em, because you're just going to get burned again. :)

posted by hincandenza at 09:15 PM on January 14, 2007

very good points all of you guys...now some clarifications... 1.) LT got into a fight with several of the New England Patriots after the game because these individuals were celebrating on the center logo by mocking Shawne Merriman's dance. LT was defending his teammate, and yes, while I disagree with his actions, I'm more upset with the Patriot players. They SHOULD know better than that to act that way, let alone after a win. Where was the honest humility that this team displayed during their run of 3 superbowls in 4 years? 2.) I think that there's even more pressure for Peyton Manning this week. They have home field, their defense has saved the offense for two straight weeks, and they've shown that they can beat New England IN Foxboro (doing it twice in the regular season, including this year). That said, if Manning puts out another dud this week, I think we can begin talking about Manning's legacy as that of one who couldn't win it when it matters most, an unfair account, but the truth. 3.) The time is ticking on Martyball in San Diego. Will the Chargers let him go after losing another playoff game? In all honesty, Marty didn't fumble the ball after McCree intercepted Brady (can we honestly say that Troy Brown IS the definition of versatility in this day and age). However, Marty DID throw that challenge flag. Marty DID neglect his Pro Bowl kicker. Marty DID not use LT to the fullest capacity (25 touches is nice, but in a game of this caliber, I felt that the Chargers did not use LT enough. 30+ was probably necessary). Throw in Shottenheimer's feud with A.J. Smith, and the Chargers could have a new coach patroling the sidelines next year. 4.) Now, can we get a little love for the NFC too? Chicago probably doesn't deserve any because they kept Seattle in the game for far too long, but Rex Grossman made the plays he had to in order for the Bears to pull it out. However, to beat New Orleans, the Bears need their D to return to early season form (not likely, but I did see some glances of it today), and they need the Rex Grossman of the first half and overtime to come out and lead the team. That said, I'm taking the Saints in the NFC Championship game because they just have too many weapons and that feel of destiny on hand...its inexplainable I guess. That's all for now. Indy's been my superbowl team all year, so its too late to turn my back on them now. Go COLTS!

posted by chemwizBsquared at 10:00 PM on January 14, 2007

That said, if Manning puts out another dud this week, I think we can begin talking about Manning's legacy as that of one who couldn't win it when it matters most, an unfair account, but the truth. ...just like how everyone labeled John Elway until 1997.

posted by grum@work at 10:40 PM on January 14, 2007

L.T may have been upset at the end of the game, but to make the comment that, "It's a reflection of the coach", when a couple of guys dance on the field after winning a game they basicly handed to the Chargers, note- for as many mistakes the bolts made the pats made double, was childlike at best. The fact is it is their house and they let a team come in and smack them around in the second half. Add 2min at the end of the 1st half to that as well. Bills' boys know that you don't have to go 14-2 or 15-1 to be a great team, you just have to know how to win when it counts no matter where you are. Go Pats. There gonna need it.

posted by patsfan73 at 01:02 AM on January 15, 2007

Florence was the culprit IMO, the penalties, the blown coverage. Also the fumbled punt return. Really sad that the Chargers could not make the lead stand up, Chargers-Saints would have been sweet in the SB.

posted by billsaysthis at 01:12 AM on January 15, 2007

"The challenge" - Marty caved to an overzealous Philip Rivers who ran up to him after seeing the play on the jumbotron and insisted the player was down before the fumble. It may or may not come out, but it was witnessed and reported by a NE journalist right after the game. Notice that Marty wore his headset after that.

posted by endorfin at 05:29 AM on January 15, 2007

LT yesterday,has shown ,he needs some maturity before he can ever be considered great in my book.Shawn Merriman comes out and does his bad robot thing.Several times ,during the game he did the same routine.The Patriots did not respond with head butts or in kind as the Chargers did..Instead they played their game and won.It was a tough victory.I don't blame the Pats for a little salt in the wound for the drug'es taunting of them.For LT not to suck it up after watching his teamates tease the Pats and then think they are not going to get some of it back is a baby in my book.Maybe Merriman should have gone out there?Anyway,goodbye for now to all the hawkers that rather than put the effort into winning on the field,pratice dance skits.Enjoy the big game boys,on HD.(In no particular order)Ray Lewis,Shawn Merriman,Terrell Owens,Chad Johnson,Joey Porter.Go Colts."WER'E GOING TO THE BOWL"

posted by goodknight at 05:55 AM on January 15, 2007

It disappoints me Pats' victories always get tainted like this now. By all accounts LT is a good a person as he is a player. As stated above, however, I think he had some trouble handling the adversity. You could see it on the sidelines in the middle of the game: when Charger players muffed plays he look physically pained, frustrated they weren't as talented as he. I don't understand how they can watch Merriman do that dance every week and then get upset like this: "It was disappointing in the way they handled winning. I mean, for as much as everybody said they expect them to win, they didn’t act like it, but that’s neither here or there. They’re playing next week and we’re not. I think what got L.T. and I right there was a little bit of taunting. It was a little finger-pointing and I don’t know where it came from." - Philip Rivers "You guys know me, I'm a very classy person. I wouldn't have reacted like that, so yes, I was upset. Very upset. When you go to the middle of our field and you start doing the dance that Shawne Merriman is known for, that's disrespectful to me and I can't sit there and watch that. And so yeah, I was very upset. And just the fact the way they showed no class at all, absolutely no class, and maybe it comes from the head coach. There you have it." - LT

posted by yerfatma at 06:50 AM on January 15, 2007

Don't you think that's the general air about Belichick, though? LT's not the first player to start launching arrows at him in a postgame interview. Maybe it's fueled by frustration or maybe they really feel there's some reason to say it. Rivers showed that he can win the big game better than Eli Manning. That's totally irrelevant, nevermind that the two have won the same exact number of playoff games. Zero. Can you win a game "better" than someone else?

posted by YukonGold at 07:34 AM on January 15, 2007

I mentioned in an earlier post that the Chargers would have to overcome the token Marty mistakes in postseason (i'm a chiefs fan, so i am well aware of many of them), and it looks like they were unable to. Marty made some poor decisions, but his players were unable to play above those mistakes. Instead they had dropped passes/punts, and fumbled. It's too bad; they really are a great team. If Marty is your coach, you have got to be prepared to come out and play disciplined, focused football, b/c not only will the opposing team & refs make it tough for you, but your coach will at times sadly. I am hoping the Pats advance. I don't really care much for either AFC team, but i would much rather see Brady continue to win than to see Payton get over the hump. I'm tired of Payton taking in tons of money, then griping when his team isn't good enough come playoff time. You can't have the rings and all the team's money (well, most of the time). I believe Brady restructured his contract at the team's request to bring in needed talent. Result: rings. While Brady's no poor man, the willingness to take a pay cut for the good of the team is still worthy of respect in my book.

posted by brainofdtrain at 07:58 AM on January 15, 2007

I'm sorry, but I find this sanctimoniousness absurd. A few Patriots players celebrate after an improbable road upset and suddenly the team is a bunch of villains?! The Chargers spent the entire game showboating, dancing, head-butting and running their mouths, but I guess the Patriots are the classless ones. San Diego was already planning its Super Bowl parade, and the Patriots were way out of line to piss in those championship corn flakes. "Over-celebrating"? What does that even mean? All I saw at the end of the game were guys like Reche Caldwell extending a hand to Tomlinson, who knocked it away angrily. Do any of you have evidence of some egregious crime, except through the statements of the childish Tomlinson? Merriman does the dance in the game, even when he hasn't made a play -- that's just fine. Someone else does it - what an asshole! It must be his coach's fault. Anyway, Merriman is a proven cheater with a rap sheet worse than Barry Bonds, who made little difference in the game's outcome despite all the hype. Why does his stupid dance deserve any respect? The fact is, if the Chargers had shown any recognition of the team that they were facing, any respect for their opponent, they would probably still be playing today. But they got way too cocky and didn't put the Patriots away. Brady made them pay for it.

posted by Venicemenace at 08:08 AM on January 15, 2007

Beware the tricorn! If the Pat's create an opportunity to win, they always seem to find a way (Tom Brady) to capitalize on it. Instead of sounding like miffed children (Philip Rivers), maybe the Charger players should take one step back and say how do these guys do this? Learn from your mistakes Bolts...disrespect is the 15 yard penalty for showing your backside and head butting someone after you've done your job and gotten the ball back! LT is without a doubt the best back in the league this year. He lead the league in rushing, set a record for TD's and has shown class and respect in all that he has done. Shawne Merriman had a great year also, leading the league in sacks and creating havoc for opponents offenses in 12 games this year. He got to dance his jig with some regularity all around the league That said, I wonder if LT will ask Shawne to cool it the next time he starts doing his little jig in an opponents stadium because it's totally disrespectful of the other team? I'm thinkin' not.

posted by brbcca at 08:30 AM on January 15, 2007

While you make some good points venice, i think that what everyone is partly surprised by is that such a successful postseason team like the pats would be doing anything remotely disrespectful. I understand that there have been some major personnel changes in NE, but that doesn't justify that behavior since there is a major core of the team that remains from the outset of their playoff success. The vets shouldv'e whipped those newbies into shape when appropriate. That being said, i agree with you venice that it is pretty convenient that one team can talk crap and then be scandalized when the favor is returned. That said, I wonder if LT will ask Shawne to cool it the next time he starts doing his little jig in an opponents stadium because it's totally disrespectful of the other team? I'm thinkin' not. Exactly. Everyone does this kind of crap, and while i'm not a big fan of it ever, i think that people need to take it with a grain of salt when they see celebration in some manner at their opponent's stadium. The chargers were pissed b/c they let one get away; i can understand that, but don't deflect that by focusing on being "disrespected." I'm just saying that both sides acted poorly; they both need to put this childish episode behind them and act like professionals again.

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:01 AM on January 15, 2007

Hold on now weedy; is one mistake (albeit a pretty moronic one) sufficient to topple the overall class the Patriots organization has shown for the past several years? I hope not, b/c then everyone else is screwed for the rest of the 21st century. Good point on SD though. It's not like they are in the same state as their division rivals, with QB questions, lack of defense, etc, etc

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:07 AM on January 15, 2007

Kokaku, 10 members of the current Patriots' squad were members of all 3 Super Bowl winners. Suffice it to say that they were not the post-game dance team. Most of the comments on the post-game controversy lean toward a bit of hypocrisy on LaT's (thanks, urall) part for seemingly condoning Merriman's actions, but condemning those of the Patriots. I agree with that assessment, but you can bet that the coach he blames will have a few words for the dancers. I think it was Tedy Bruschi that said that there was a lot of trash talking during the game by both sides. If it was enough to get San Diego off of their game and break their concentration, so be it. In his comments after the game, Tom Brady had a definition of mental toughness that included maintaining one's focus on the task at hand despite adversity and distraction. One final comment from "Howard_T's Dictionary": Martyball (Mar' . tee . bawl) n (From football coach M. Schottenheimer): To suffer defeat due to a failure to properly prepare your team or yourself for a postseason contest.

posted by Howard_T at 09:14 AM on January 15, 2007

I'm buying into it totally. The Pats' act of unsportsmanship becomes one of the storylines of the playoffs and should make next year's Chargers visit to Foxboro a can't-miss game. Chargers LB Shaun Phillips is so fired up about this he slipped into third person: "Every time I will play New England it will be a personal grudge. That was very classless. ... When we went in and beat their head in New England (last season), blew them out, we did nothing but compliment them and say they were a good team. We would never disrespect a team like that. We have class, and that's how classless individuals are. Shaun Phillips will have a grudge against them the rest of his career." Rogers Cadenhead likes that very much.

posted by rcade at 09:35 AM on January 15, 2007

Wait - only a few players danced for a few moments in mockery of a player who has hardly earned unstinting respect, and who openly guaranteed a win before the game?! Shh Venice, you're screwing up the anti-Patriots argument with these tales of reality and truth. Cut it out.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:48 AM on January 15, 2007

I don't mean this sarcastically, but i honestly wonder how much of this blowup is over the now very real possibility that the Patriot's win another SB? If you are a fan of another AFC team, then possibly that is why the Patriots dumb move is so extra offensive. If i was say a miami or buffalo fan, then this would give me some ammo to hate an otherwise classy organization who has up to this point dominated the 21sat cnetury NFL.

posted by brainofdtrain at 09:59 AM on January 15, 2007

What do you expect from the Patriots? The perception that New England is "classy" is a joke. Arrogant, cocky, full of themselves, but definitely not classy. FYI for all of you knuckleheads, NE didn't win the game, SD lost it.

posted by whitedog65 at 10:07 AM on January 15, 2007

you shouldn't be carving things into your hair, MC Serch I can't believe that's back. Will players be wearing "Hammer" pants in their off-day interviews next year or what.

posted by YukonGold at 10:15 AM on January 15, 2007

If i was say a miami or buffalo fan, then this would give me some ammo to hate an otherwise classy organization who has up to this point dominated the 21sat cnetury NFL. Good lord it hasn't taken Boston fans long to become competely insufferable in triumph. The Patriots still have to go to the Indianapolis Speedway and beat the Colts, something they didn't have to do the last two times they met in the playoffs. Let's not fit them for rings just yet.

posted by rcade at 10:17 AM on January 15, 2007

This SD loss just reinforces my NFL theory.In the playoffs and the Superbowl, losers keep on losing.Look at Buffalo and Minnesota.Denver finally broke through. For this reason and the fact that the Pats beat a better team on the road,I'd be very afraid if I was Indy.

posted by sickleguy at 11:15 AM on January 15, 2007

There are newspaper message boards for that sort of trolling. This is a different sort of Round Table.

posted by yerfatma at 11:53 AM on January 15, 2007

God bless you JG.

posted by hawkguy at 12:32 PM on January 15, 2007

I still would like to know where the unsportsmanlike conduct calls were on the Patriots DB slugging the Chargers WR in the head (ref looking right at it) and the Patriots DL punching the Chargers QB in the head. Why aren't those penalties? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the league catering to the Patriots, does it. Sorry, at one time I could've put in all the names, but I have kids now so the only name I knew for sure was QB Rivers. I realize that these in themselves didn't cost the Chargers the game, but they didn't help. Especially since the refs didn't hesitate to throw the same type of flag on the Chargers. I'm sick of hearing how great the Patriots are and I actually used to kind of like them, but they are so OVER-RATED and on the right side of so many calls, that I can't stand them anymore. They are the NFL's version of the Jordan Bulls and it smells.

posted by hellamarine at 12:35 PM on January 15, 2007

Hold on now weedy; is one mistake (albeit a pretty moronic one) sufficient to topple the overall class the Patriots organization has shown for the past several years? No, it shouldn't (and it won't if they win) - but I think NE has done a few things this year to sully that "classy" reputation. Belichek vs. Mangini when the Jets won was one. The fact is that the Pats "classy" reputation was probably a misnomer, or a case of a bad choice of words. That whole rep is founded on basically having a super-cute-and-amazingly-awesome-aw-shucks Tom Brady, and to a lesser extent a couple good guys in Bruschi, Troy Brown and a few others. Really - they're a competent organization that has manage to succeed despite constant turnover. I'm not sure exactly how that really translates into "classy". But really - have they been the least bit "classy" this year? Certainly not on Sunday, when it would count the most. And not on a few other occassions. Ah - football teams aren't classy. They're football teams. This is keeping in mind that the Pats are my favorite team. I was disappointed with the dancing. I too, thought it unnecessary and tasteless.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:54 PM on January 15, 2007

I'm so sick of this country and the bandwagon jumping. Oh, the Patriots are winning, I'm a Patriots fan. The whole place is about the flavor of the month. BTW, the challenge of the fumble on the interception was, I think, a ploy by Marty to get his defense some time to settle back down. In hindsight it didn't work, but I don't think that it was a bad call. And to the Chiefs fan who was Marty-hating I would just like to say, who has been a better coach than Marty for the Chiefs organization in the last 30 years? As a Chiefs fan myself, I am sick of all the Marty bashing here. Get over it! He took us to the playoffs 9 straight years. How many other coaches did that? Oh, and he did it with an anemic offense.

posted by hellamarine at 01:06 PM on January 15, 2007

Please stop. What DL punched Philip Rivers? If you're talking about the thing with Wilfork at the end of the game, you are mistaken, as suggested above. Wilfork was pushed into the QB and Rivers flopped. As a Pats homer, I've spent the whole season yelling at the refs for clearly having fixed the games to make the Pats lose, so clearly different folks see things differently. 'Cuz remember when the Chargers TE got hit somewhere on the field one time by someone and he might have fumbled but it was ruled a something-or-other? Me too. I think NE has done a few things this year to sully that "classy" reputation. Belichek vs. Mangini when the Jets won was one. Personally, I think the Belichick/ Mangini thing was turned into a story by the media. Bill banging some other guy's wife for years, now that's classy.

posted by yerfatma at 01:19 PM on January 15, 2007

Right, because he obviously caught that ball. The Pats get bad calls, Holy Crap! Guess I missed those games.

posted by hellamarine at 01:32 PM on January 15, 2007

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league).

posted by hellamarine at 01:38 PM on January 15, 2007

who flopped like he was a World Cup striker flying through the penalty box. I thought it was only a Vlade Divac level flop myself. Damn funny though.

posted by tron7 at 01:55 PM on January 15, 2007

Very surprised by the dancing celebration by the few of the Pat's players at mid-field.But I'm actually more disappointed of the way LT spoke about how classless the Patriots were and his crying after a tough loss.Being a N.E. fan,I wish we had a Tomlinson in our backfield.I always thought L.T.was a quiet,classy player who would take defeat in a more professional way.I don't think he remembered the way he almost ripped Colvins head off with that non-called face mask penality.Maybe the better team didn't win on paper,but as everyone knows,you don't give Brady a chance to win a game with just minutes to go in any game.The few Chargers that were talking trash all week are now going to be watching from their couches,while the best team of the 2000's are now going to try to win their 4th Super Bowl in 6 years.But they have to get by the Colts first.And I believe that after taking care of the Bolts,Belechick and Co.will come up with a game plan to take care of the Colts.I just hope that Brady has a better day than he had yesterday,even though they won.

posted by Ghastly1 at 02:01 PM on January 15, 2007

As a Pats homer, I've spent the whole season yelling at the refs... yerfatma, are you sure that you aren't me? My son says I'm the worst in the world with my conspiracy theories about how the games are rigged to keep them close until the last quarter, just so the TV audience won't tune out too early. hellamarine, there were a number of calls that weren't made that went both ways. in addition to those called out above, I remember an uncalled holding that prevented Bruschi from making a tackle on a LaT run for good yardage (offensive lineman behind Bruschi with both arms wrapped around Bruschi's torso and clearly impeding him). There was also a clear but close pass interference penalty early on that was not called. My point is that the old saw "It all depends upon whose ox is being gored" certainly applies to any sporting event that is played and judged by humans.

posted by Howard_T at 02:47 PM on January 15, 2007

the colts offense have been sputtering the last few weeks and they will continue. maybe i am going to end up putting my foot in my mouth here or not, but im going to make a bold prediction anyways. the colts defense is going to come back down to earth this weekend and they will be going home once again this year.

posted by mflinn at 03:10 PM on January 15, 2007

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league). So, as I understand it, Patriot fans think the refs are fixing the games AGAINST them, but opposition fans think the refs are fixing games FOR the Patriots. And wasn't it just last year that Steelers fans complained about the refs "fixing" games AGAINST them (or trying) and then the Seahawk fans complained about the refs "fixing" it FOR the Steelers? In my books, that's a wash and a pretty good indication that there isn't any "fixing" by the refs.

posted by grum@work at 04:15 PM on January 15, 2007

Face it, in this day of NFL parity, the only way for continued succes is a little help from your friends (the refs and the league). To be fair, I should point out that the league does promote parity by giving the poor teams an easier schedule the next season, and the great teams a tougher schedule. However, this has been going on for over 30 years, so I doubt it's much of a "conspiracy".

posted by grum@work at 04:52 PM on January 15, 2007

On fourth down, why doesn't McCree just knock the ball down???? This bothers me every time I see it, a DB more interested in his stats and getting on TV then what's going on in the game. Why in god's name would you want to intercept a 4th down pass, and why does no one point this out in any of the coverage I've seen? I'm pretty sure Ed Reed did the same in the Indy game just the day before. Just knock it down! As for next week's game, as a Pat's homer, I would point out that the last two meetings were not really indicative as to what will happen. In 2005 the Pats were decimated with injuries and simply were incapable of defending the Colts receivers with their rag-tag band of DBs. This year, they lost Harrison in the first quarter and never really recovered and Brady started forcing passes trying to compensate. I'm sure that I'll now be mocked, and told that I'm making excuses, but it's no worse then the Peyton apologists that are still not willing to admit that he simply folds in January. I've been following the Pats since I've been old enough to comprehend the game. I suffered through the indignity of the first two SB loses and multiple 1-15 seasons in between. One of the hallmark's of the SB winning teams has been their ability to have a perpetual chip on their shoulder. As such I wasn't surprised by the celebration, not that I completely condone it.

posted by turacma at 05:10 PM on January 15, 2007

LaDainian thats what happens when you play against a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TEAM. You got your prop's in the pregame the Pats got theirs when it counts post game. Next weekend I'm sure it will be all Peyton this and that from the media pre-game. 1 Pat to the Pro Bowl who cares 1 team to the SUPER BOWL 1 game to go.

posted by thatch at 05:36 PM on January 15, 2007

Yeah, the Pats looked real PROFESSIONAL doing their little dance on the Chargers emblem. Face it, athletes are a bunch of punks these days with no respect for the fans or their opponents and the dance just proves it further. As for the holding on Bruschi, I don't have enough fingers on my hand to count all the holds on Chargers defesemen trying to rush Brady. I guess they figure the so-called best team of the 2000s must not lower themselves to actually holding the defense to protect that over-rated s.o.b. Brady. Oh sure, he's had a few comebacks, but not without assistance from the officiating. And just ask the Dolphins, get some smackdown on him and he starts throwing the ball like a little girl.

posted by hellamarine at 06:32 PM on January 15, 2007

Tom Brady is the most over-rated quarterback of all time. He has never one a close playoff game without the foot of his kicker and the only reason he is the player he is today is because of his former genius offensive coordinator, now head coach of Notre Dame, Charlie Weis. Weis has done with Brady Quinn, who two years ago was the worst quarterback in divsion 1 football, what he did with Tom Brady in New England. Without Weis Brady was and will be again just a 6th round back up out of Michigan.

posted by the legend at 06:50 PM on January 15, 2007

the legend, that was an amazing troll. Now die. hellamarine, for someone who doesn't care, you sure seem to care. Taunting happens in every NFL game. It's because the athletes are all spoiled, overpaid rapists who don't appreciate how lucky they are to have rich benefactors providing them with facilities with which to practice their sub-human behavior. Not sure why you bother watching.

posted by yerfatma at 06:58 PM on January 15, 2007

fatma, when did I say I didn't care? I said it's gotten to the point that the fixing of games is becoming more and more akin to that of the NBA, and if the trend didn't quit, then I'll stop watching it too. Then the only sport I'll be watchig is the only true man's sport anway. Go Hockey!

posted by hellamarine at 07:04 PM on January 15, 2007

nemo, I agree, some receivers who could catch, not talking TE but WR, would be a big help for this team. I don't believe I've seen that many dropped passes since Penn State kicked the crap outta the Miami receivers in the national championship game a few years back. The difference is that the Miami receivers got knocked into submission and the Chargers receivers are just inept.

posted by hellamarine at 07:12 PM on January 15, 2007

Thankfully, I still have all those Chevy/Mellencamp commercials to keep me grounded next weekend while watching a bunch of cheating, crybaby, silver-spoon fed millionaires play in the most evil and twisted contest ever. epic. truly epic.

posted by YukonGold at 08:16 PM on January 15, 2007

EVERYONE WHO JOINED SPORTSFILTER.COM IN THE LAST WEEK: There is some very important information about your account. Please read our guidelines. They are the rules of the road and all good information you need to know to keep your account here in good standings, what constitutes a troll, what makes a good comment, what flies and what doesn't. You're collectively killing us all. Signed, us all

posted by jerseygirl at 09:11 PM on January 15, 2007

And the SpoFi community breathes a collective sigh of relief.

posted by hawkguy at 09:24 PM on January 15, 2007

Wow, I just read this thread from start to finish. If you removed the players names and the teams names you could easily mistake this for a McNabb/T.O.-Philly/Dallas thread. Drama Player hatin Head butts Dancing/celebrating @midfield To mad to shake hands after the game Sore losers Flaming winners If you had to choose at the start of this season to pick the players and teams involved in this thread (dancing at midfield/not shaking hands after the game), there is no way in the world anyone would pick the Pats has the dancing/mocking opponent at midfield team and LT as the player to not shake hands and then throw a fit at the end of the game player.

posted by Bishop at 09:58 PM on January 15, 2007

Yeah, you're right, as long as they allow the o-line to continue to hold in the final 3 minutes, I'll take Brady, but as soon as they start calling it, I'll take someone else. BTW, if the Chargers have Vinatieri, the game would've gone to OT.

posted by hellamarine at 10:50 PM on January 15, 2007

I don't think that McNabb (or his mom), Delhomme, and Warner would agree with "the legend" in saying that Brady has never won a close game without the foot of his kicker. This may sound foolish, but winning by one is just as good as winning by 6. (7 if you let the kicker out on the field). The legend may want the Pats to only go for two points. Oh ya, they did that yesterday and against Philly in the superbowl. But I guess Brady should've run those in, because you know football IS a one player sport. "My family" thinks Brady is overrated hellamarine, is probably just a sad sack buckeye fan whose top NFL QB was a punter named Tupa. Glad to know that little Skip and cute little Katie are your basis for an overrated ranking. Dork. The fact is that NO ONE that makes a pro team is overrated, mabey OVERHYPED, McNabb, McNair, Manning, combined 0 superbowl wins, but a bunch of MVP awards, that were never actually won, but awarded, but where should I stop. I don't care if someone catches one pass or makes one tackle. It's still more than 99% of us will ever get paid to do.

posted by patsfan73 at 11:40 PM on January 15, 2007

mabey OVERHYPED, McNabb, McNair, Manning, combined 0 superbowl wins, but a bunch of MVP awards, that were never actually won At last you got 1 part right, McNabb has never won an MVP. Dude, I hope you got this much to say if they DON'T win the Superbowl. Or will you mysteriously forget your password.

posted by Bishop at 02:53 AM on January 16, 2007

FRAZIER. WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU???? Oh, sorry, did not know you're in drag to duck your bookies. Hope the broken hands do not stop you from posting your predictions later this week. You know where he might be? Writing another column, in his own personal spare time, for the edification and entertainment of the rest of us. What's your big friggin' problem? You're so goddamned smart, how about you write a column and bless us all with your wisdom? Frazier makes his calls, writes a funny column, and then gets to listen to your "I've-been-a-member-for-less-than-two-weeks-and-I-know-everything" smartass comments. You got such a problem, don't read the Hoser's Picks, or, at the very least, keep your trap shut. You're not funny, or cute, or anything else good. Just stick a cork in it. The rest of us, the ones who don't shit all over fellow members for making worthwhile contributions to the site, would really appreciate it. Obviously, waiting five days or a week before you can post isn't long enough for some people. Jerseygirl is right. Read the guidelines, and at least make some attempt at following them. Hellamarine, your blatant homerism is wearing thin. I don't like the Patriots, either, but I might make one or two joking comments and then leave it alone. You've posted twelve times in this thread, and said nothing worthwhile in the whole of your comments. The NFL did not "cheat" the Patriots' way into the AFC Championship Game, and your repeated declarations of such make you look like an idiot. Take a break. Go eat a sandwich or something.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:25 AM on January 16, 2007

How did good 'ol Steve McNair get dragged into this? Poor guy.

posted by YukonGold at 06:22 AM on January 16, 2007

How many 50+ yard kicks did Adam hit outdoors in the playoffs? I'm not sure historically, but he had a 51 yarder in Baltimore on Saturday.

posted by holden at 07:07 AM on January 16, 2007

All this crap about the celebration by Patriot players on the emblem is tired. It's just something for losers to focus on, because San Diego absolutely gagged the game away. They should have run, full speed and embarrassed, off the field after a game like that and not worry about what a winning team does. Maybe someday they'll have a chance to experience a big win, then we'll see how they react. Saying "Brady is overrated" translates in most languages to mean "I can't stand the Patriots because they win." As long as Belichick is coach, and Brady is at quarterback, they can continue to win games. Brady doesn't have to fall back on the tired, "We don't have any receivers" line like McNabb and Vick do. He takes what he has and finds a way to win games. As for Bill Belichick, how many times have you ever watched a game he's coaching and had to wonder what the hell he's doing, like, for example, with Marty last weekend (throwing the red flag, poor play calling, poor clock management)? He can take seemingly-inferior talent and win games. I'm not a Patriot fan, either, but I'm at least smart enough to admit when players, teams, or coaches are head-and-shoulders above the rest. Stop acting like complete fantasy geeks when critiquing players and remember the only stat that matters: Winning.

posted by dyams at 07:46 AM on January 16, 2007

The Spo-Fi team pulled this thread out at the last minute, too. Good work boys.

posted by mjkredliner at 08:07 AM on January 16, 2007

"FYI for all of you knuckleheads, NE didn't win the game, SD lost it" Well, the team that "didn't win the game" is playing another game next week no matter how they won it. "Peyton Manning has never done anything feel-good for me. He's got boatloads of talents and skill, but his attitude makes it impossible for me to root for him" What "attitude" that Peyton displayed are you speaking of? I've always seen Peyton as an all around good guy and a great quarterback. As far as people saying that Tom Brady is over-rated, I would take an over-rated, 3-time Super Bowl Champion any day of the week. Some may not like Brady for whatever reason but the bottom line is, this guy delivers when it counts and so far in his playoff career is 12-1. On a side note: Adam Vinateri may have kicked the game winners on some (if not most) of those games but everything that's done is done so collectively as a team. If Tom Brady doesn't drive his team towards field goal range, Adam Vinateri doesn't get a chance to kick a game winner. It all goes hand in hand.

posted by BornIcon at 09:25 AM on January 16, 2007

Oh, btw pats, I hate the Buckeyes and all other Big 10 teams. And teams from Florida are the Devil!

posted by hellamarine at 09:39 AM on January 16, 2007

Someone in the powers that be...Please do something about this guy.

posted by hawkguy at 10:01 AM on January 16, 2007

Oh it's ugly all right. It's Star Jones up in this hizzy. Yes, I did just say hizzy.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:09 AM on January 16, 2007

holden, et al, I do want to make it clear I am in no way denigrating the memory of Adam Vinatieri or suggesting Gostkowski* is his superior. Just trying to counter the "OMG! The kicker was the key to it all!" idea. I didn't think you were and I hope you don't think I'm arguing the corollary or taking that OMG position. I was just trying to provide some data points so we could have a reasoned discussion about that and other points. Regardless of whether Gostkowski honks a big kick in this weekend's game and Vinatieri makes the game winner or vice versa, it is way, way, too early to draw any larger conclusions considering the breadth of Vinatieri's post-season work and the relatively small body of post-season work Gostkowski will have at the end of this play-off run. As to Brady being overrated (which almost really isn't worthy of discussion considering the whole topic got started by someone trolling), I don't think Brady right now should be in the conversation of best QB ever considering his relative youth and the fact that his regular season stats are solid, but not spectacular. Even at this stage, however, you have to put him in the conversation of the best post-season QBs ever. 12-1 is just too much to overlook and, while I hate to use abstract terms and subjective measures of performance, he definitely seems to come through when it matters. I think one of the reasons people hate the Patriots is just that they have this look that might be described as cocky, but I would call it confident. Look at Belichick or Brady in the fourth quarter of a close game and they just project confidence.

posted by holden at 10:18 AM on January 16, 2007

If he's not the best ever - which he isn't, I don't think anyone is really making that claim (that isn't on a telecast) - at least he's starting to get into the conversation. He's current career stats are starting to match up and his post-season resume (with MVPs) is already wicked awesome to the point of discussing him as an all-time great. Imagine if he wins again? With this offensive roster? It may be Brady loving to the extreme but right now in the NFL I fail to see how anyone can be ranked above him when all things are considered. I always organize it simply that if Peyton is Marino, then Brady is Montana. And really - which would you rather have?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:32 AM on January 16, 2007

I am sorry Tom Brady stole your girlfriend, pantsed you, took your mom out for a nice seafood dinner and never called her again, and shoved you into a locker in HS, but it might be time to move on.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:47 AM on January 16, 2007

Brady-homos If there was a just world hellamarine, I'd have the ability to manipulate the user database and make all of your posts (previous and future) be signed "Brady-Homo".

posted by grum@work at 11:19 AM on January 16, 2007

What "attitude" that Peyton displayed are you speaking of? I've always seen Peyton as an all around good guy and a great quarterback. Great quarterback, sure, but everything about him smacks of a big me-first attitude. Watch his body language when something goes wrong on a play: he rolls his eyes, he throws his hands in the air, he sneers—and not at himself. He always seems more than happy to blame his teammates first for anything. And that the touchdown-record run a couple years back: I dunno, forcing touchdown after touchdown down the throats of non-playoff teams with your starters on the field, long after any other team would have the backups in... seems like playing for stats rather than playing to win. Look, I don't know the guy, and I'm obviously in no better position to judge him than anyone else here, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't want to play with him. And that's something.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:35 AM on January 16, 2007

when I was in Pop Warner I knew to knock down the ball on 4th down. I not only did this in Pop Warner, but also in high school and in sand lot games. Finally! The insight of an experienced athlete!

posted by YukonGold at 11:56 AM on January 16, 2007

I wasn't saying I was experienced, yukon, in fact, I was trying to point out exactly the opposite, that an inexperienced player such as myself even knew to knock the ball down . Good god, have I irritated you all to the point of irrationality? Look, I'm not on here trying to "p" people off, I just wanted to get a different view of things on here. I know you all think Brady is the second-coming, but I just wanted you to know that not everyone agrees. So go ahead and keep giving it to me, because you're not changing my opinion of him or the Pats! p.s. I will admit a few of my digs were meant to get under the skin a little, but I was also trying to be sarcastically funny. You all know sarcasm, no?

posted by hellamarine at 12:07 PM on January 16, 2007

If you saw me and my 50 pounds of excess weight you wouldn't think so.;)

posted by hellamarine at 12:14 PM on January 16, 2007

I just wanted to get a different view of things on here Ok, you have. Enough already. A good part of debating is knowing when you've put enough out there to support your position. Simply repeating the same thing over and over does not a conversation make. I'm not on here trying to "p" people off You have. We're all p'd off, as demonstrated by the numerous comments telling/asking you to knock it off. Good god, have I irritated you all to the point of irrationality? Maybe we're not the irrational ones. Listen... you joined this site yesterday and you've yet to make a comment that really merits anything. I'd suggest you're inflating your post numbers to circumvent the FPP creation waiting period, but you probably don't even know what that is because you haven't read the guidelines repeatedly pointed out to you. You're slowly approaching that line of pushing your agenda with no regard to the community and it's borderline trolling. No one wants to ban you because you hate Tom Brady, they want you banned because your behavior spits in the face of the community guidelines and rules. In short? You don't seem to want to play nice.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:16 PM on January 16, 2007

You know what, screw you guys, I'm sorry you're so set in your ways that my posts are so offensive. Get over yourselves! OMG, someone new is posting on OUR boards, get him out, he doesn't think like us! Wow, I didn't know I was talking to the internet inventor himself, hello Mr. Gore. You know you guys need to get off your high horses.

posted by hellamarine at 12:32 PM on January 16, 2007

Your right, you did present yourself.

posted by hellamarine at 12:38 PM on January 16, 2007

Whatever yukon, I was NOT comparing my Pop Warner days to the NFL but, again, as you don't seem to be able to comprehend the logic, was trying to point out that even in POP WARNER we knew that on 4th, you KNOCK THE GD BALL DOWN! Oh, and might I ask why it's ok for you to hound me, but not the other way around? And might I also add that you are so funny that I'm still laughing at you.

posted by hellamarine at 12:48 PM on January 16, 2007

Oooh, and who is jersey, God? So it's okay for her to mess with me, but it's taboo to respond? Again, get off your high horses. BTW, I looked at jersey's profile and some some of the garbage she's spewed before. I have a hard time believeing, after reading it, that you guys are all p'd at me. C'est la vie!

posted by hellamarine at 12:51 PM on January 16, 2007

Hey, ghastly, how many ints did Brady throw on Sunday? Hmmm, maybe his DEFENSE and TROY BROWN had more to do with the win. Last I checked the drive before the field goal, Brady threw an int and was lucky Troy Brown was in the area. Oh, and if the DB did what he was supposed to do, we might not even be having this discussion.

posted by hellamarine at 12:57 PM on January 16, 2007

Glad you're counting jersey, because apparently no-one listened the first time. I guess this is a site for the reading impaired?

posted by hellamarine at 12:59 PM on January 16, 2007

hellamarine,your not making any friends here on this site at all.Are you doing this to be a smart ass,or are you just a sarcastic person?I've only been a member here myself for only 5 months.But as long as I've been reading and adding my comments,I've never come across anyone like you here on SpoFi.I for one would like to see you just move on and take your opinions elsewhere. Seems to me that you've got a chip on your shoulder and want to vent your problems here.We don't need them here on SpoFi.

posted by Ghastly1 at 01:03 PM on January 16, 2007

Oh, and might I ask why it's ok for you to hound me, but not the other way around? No more emoticons? I thought we had something.

posted by YukonGold at 01:04 PM on January 16, 2007

Seems to me that you are all like attack dogs just waiting for someone to say something you don't like, and then you pounce. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong. Of course I'm not, though.

posted by hellamarine at 01:06 PM on January 16, 2007

Maybe you didn't read the same post I did, fatma, because if that was trying to smooth things over, then she needs some help with her etiquette. Now, I probably do owe bornicon an apology, but I don't think jersey gets one. Sorry yukon, I'm still there for you man! Wanna get some Bud Light? ;)

posted by hellamarine at 01:10 PM on January 16, 2007

What's wrong jersey? Someone not kissin' your butt?

posted by hellamarine at 01:22 PM on January 16, 2007

You don't owe me an apology hellamarine, I'm just letting you know from firsthand experience of what can happen and if you choose to not listen or take heed my advice, that's entirely up to you. I'm just suggesting that you slow your roll and watch what you say to people. When I first got on SpoFi, i was pretty similar to how you are until I got to understand that this site isn't about "attacking" anyone, we're all on here for the same thing, our love of sports. We all have something to say and sometime (ok, alot of times) people may not agree with your opinion. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion but the last thing any one will tolerate is another individual (especially a newbie) trying to create a hostile environment. Don't take it personal, it is what it is. BTW, jerseygirl was in fact trying to help you as well since she posted a link of the guidelines for you to take a look at. That to me looks like someone that tried to assist you.

posted by BornIcon at 01:23 PM on January 16, 2007

First time in NFL playoff history that a team (Patriots) had 50 pass attempts and won the game. Interesting that both AFC (the better conference) teams with the bye week lost their first games. Tomlinson had only nine touches in the second half; none on back to back plays. This disrespected on our turf mentality is the starting point that leads to the murder of Denver's Darrent Williams. Merriman's little dance is all about disrespect, not celebrating. Glad it was thrown back in his face. Tomlinson defended Merriman in public; in private I'd hope he'd give him a different message. Mcree running with the ball after the interception- can't get upset about this. Everson Walls or Roger Wehrli didn't sit down after interceptions.

posted by Newbie Walker at 01:29 PM on January 16, 2007

Right, born, but the smart-aleckness of jersey's guidelines post still rang through. And the last I looked, I did throw some bones about Brady's ints during the game, but every post I make gets more of you attacking me. In fact, you all have attacked me from post number one. So I guess you're right, I'M THE BAD GUY! Ooh, I must have seen the error of my ways... or maybe not.

posted by hellamarine at 01:31 PM on January 16, 2007

This disrespected on our turf mentality is the starting point that leads to the murder of Denver's Darrent Williams What?!!? Where did you find this information from? At this point and time, there are Detectives working on this case and I for one have not heard anything to validate this. Please provide further information on this, Newbie. What are you talking about now, HM? I have not attacked you until you tried to come out your face at me and no where did I post anything calling you a so-called "bad guy." I believe that your just creating drama for no apparent reason whatsoever and I'm starting to think that this isn't the first site that you've tried to pull this act. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong. Of course I'm not, though Can we just get back to talking about sports? If this is going to continue, I'm sure that you're either going to be completely ignored or just kicked from here and there's no need for that.

posted by BornIcon at 01:42 PM on January 16, 2007

Hey born, I don't recall ever really attacking you, but i do recall trying to defend my own opinion. If I attacked, I apologize.

posted by hellamarine at 01:46 PM on January 16, 2007

Accepted.

posted by BornIcon at 01:51 PM on January 16, 2007

What's wrong jersey? Someone not kissin' your butt? Nice attempt at a save, HM, but you lost me long before we got to this point. It would not matter what member of SpoFi you said this about. To me, this merits you going away for a long time.

posted by hawkguy at 01:54 PM on January 16, 2007

You saw that, right born, even when I try to change things up, a yahoo like hawk chimes in to save the day.

posted by hellamarine at 01:59 PM on January 16, 2007

What?!!? Where did you find this information from? At this point and time, there are Detectives working on this case and I for one have not heard anything to validate this. Please provide further information on this, Newbie. As I took it, he meant they were both rooted in the same cause, the sort of Territorial Pissings all guys engage in at certain ages, in certain ways. That is to say, there isn't a big difference in meaning between Shawne Merriman's antics and the kind of thing that devolves into a shoot-out, just a difference in volume and outcome.

posted by yerfatma at 02:05 PM on January 16, 2007

I don't know about you guys, But I'm GUARANTEEING that Duff Light beats Duff Extra Cold in the big game.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:19 PM on January 16, 2007

Didn't they stop making that after some hillbillies went blind?

posted by yerfatma at 02:40 PM on January 16, 2007

That's not what caused their blindness.

posted by tommybiden at 02:45 PM on January 16, 2007

That's not what caused their blindness I'm sure it's not but seeing that he went left from Dallas to the Jints, that's the only reason I see for him not being enshrined (bad joke). Walls was a 4-time Pro-Bowl player when he played for the Cowboys and deserves to get in the Hall.

posted by BornIcon at 02:52 PM on January 16, 2007

Hellafirst thread Now That's some sarcasm for you...

posted by hawkguy at 03:13 PM on January 16, 2007

Good one. Touche'

posted by BornIcon at 07:51 PM on January 16, 2007

"As I took it, he meant they were both rooted in the same cause, the sort of Territorial Pissings all guys engage in at certain ages, in certain ways. That is to say, there isn't a big difference in meaning between Shawne Merriman's antics and the kind of thing that devolves into a shoot-out, just a difference in volume and outcome." Yerfatma rephrased it better than I phrased it. "Although, in my opinion they should be, do you realize that both of the CB's you named aren't in the Hall, newbie?" Wehrli is a Hall of Fame ballot finalist this year. Already a member of the college football Hall of Fame. As for naming Everson Walls... just reflexes I guess.

posted by Newbie Walker at 02:44 AM on January 17, 2007

See grum, I try to change the way things are going and here you are dissin' me. What's really funny to me is that I don't see the riot act being read to you. Also, anyone who has ever played defense, if they had a coach worth his salt, were taught to knock the ball down on 4th. You see the logic was that you not only got the ball back where the offense was, but you also eliminated the possibility of turning the ball over and giving said offense a 1st down. Have you ever played on defense in any kind of organized football, grum? Not trying to be a smart-ass, but I'd really like to know. And before you people start jumping down my throat again, how many of you ever played on defense? I realize that Pop Warner and High School ball isn't on the level of the pro game, hell it isn't even near college ball, but it is still organized, to say the least. As for sandlot ball, the point I was trying to make was, that even in a game that was meaningless to all but those there, I still played it the right way and I didn't even have to think about it because it was drilled into us to the point of being instinctive.

posted by hellamarine at 11:49 AM on January 17, 2007

Ease up, hellamartyr. I do have to agree with you about batting the ball down on 4th down. So does TMQ: On fourth down it is the responsibility of the coaching staff to remind defenders not to intercept! Before a key fourth down in our middle-school flag league this fall, I screamed to my players: "Knock it down! Do not intercept!" My 11-year-old, Spenser, had a perfect bead on a pick and instead slapped the ball to the ground. After the game he said, "Dad, I really wanted the interception, but I knew you knock it down on fourth down." Why didn't San Diego's professionals know this? Why didn't the highly paid San Diego coaches remind them? Before a fourth-down snap by the opponent, coaches are supposed to scream, "FOURTH DOWN! KNOCK IT DOWN!"

posted by yerfatma at 01:18 PM on January 17, 2007

Some Patriot thoughts Lucky! Don't think so! As in all sports, football luck is about putting yourself in a position to capitalize on an opportunity when it presents itself. And then, going the extra to make it happen. As in Troy Brown not being satisfied with just a tackle, but going for the strip - as, it seems that's the model many good defensive teams are using these days. (Think Bears and Ravens for a start.) As in the Chargers defensive player not having the presence to just lay down immediately after interception but trying to run a little - creating the opportunity. Or as in good old Marty and his staff blowing the review on clear TV evidence that the call was correct and wasting a time out in the process. Or the head butt because of lack of control (is that a coaching thing??) Don't you agree that a lot of what happens in these close games is driven by how well the Pats are prepared, not just with a game plan, but in total, so they rarely loose control and are better able to adjust when the original game plan goes south. They just regroup, pull together, try something else, try something else again, and go keep going forward. There might be a Harvard business model in there somewhere, you think? Interesting that when TV tried to interview Gostkowski, he said something like I just kept my head down and kicked it. Then he said "I have to be careful, I'm not allowed to talk to reporters." Perhaps another Belichick policy about keeping the focus and not running at the mouth about how good someone thinks they are and how bad the other guys were and having that come back at the Pats later. Are others listening? It will certainly be tough on Sunday. Boston TV reports today that the Colts have restricted sale of any available tickets to on-site in Indy only, no Ticketmaster or similar. Effectively shutting out Pats fans. I'm not sure the NFL should allow that to happen. I wonder why they don't have allocations for each game like they do for college bowl games? Manning doesn't want any Pats fans in the building at all, wants the place "all blue". He'll need it, he's a choker, just like his father, little brother, and coach. None of them have ever stepped up and won anything big. There's a lot of hype about the Colts re-invented defense. But, I think that needs to be put in perspective. The Chiefs were, after all, a not very good 8-8 with a lousy QB. Good runner in LJ, but I come back to my point (above) about when the game plan goes south. Same problem at KC as the Jets used to have - Herm! As to the Ravens, I think their miserable offense got exposed more than the Colts were so good. It became pretty evident, I think, why McNair was available to them. Unlike Brady, he's not able to pick up a team when it's not going good and carry them along while they get reorganized. Sidebar - I wasn't sure if I was going to see an NFL playoff game or the WWF when Ray Lewis came out of the smoke before the game. I'm not sure the NFL should allow that either. I think it's interesting (perhaps revolting is a better word) all the hype that QBs get these days, especially when they aren't really living up to it. I think, besides McNair, that McNabb, Vick, Eli Manning, Hasselbeck, Romo, and Farve at the end of his career, among others fit in that category. There are too many TV talking heads filling airtime by passing on unrealistic assessments and overrating QBs in an effort to make some excitement where there really is none, in my view. I have a hard time seeing McNabb (remember, he lost four in a row before getting hurt and Garcia saved the Eagles season), Vick or the others being good enough and raising their game enough to win the Super Bowl. For Peyton, the jury is out, he's on his last appeal!

posted by Cape Codder at 02:58 PM on January 17, 2007

We saw that comment the first time. There's no need to say the same thing again.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:26 PM on January 17, 2007

See grum, I try to change the way things are going and here you are dissin' me. What's really funny to me is that I don't see the riot act being read to you. I think that's because most people caught on that I was just joking with you. If you play football that long, it should be implied that you have the necessary motor skills to catch a football that is thrown your way, if you want to. Also, people didn't leap to attack me because I didn't call you any names.

posted by grum@work at 11:30 AM on January 18, 2007

Oh right, so when you do it it's okay 'cause it's a joke, but when I do it, it's time to kick me off the site. How many times did I actually call someone a name, grum? Go check how many names I got called. Besides, thee isn't anything you can call me that I haven't alreadt been called. In fact, no-one has ever called me anything that compared to what my D.I. called me. I also think it's funny that fatma comes in again with his useful little comments. Hmmm, I'm a pussy, "OH THE HUMANITY!" So how come no-one is screaming to have fatma removed. OMG, he called me a name, whatever will I do? Thanks fatma. ;)

posted by hellamarine at 02:07 PM on January 18, 2007

He called grum a pussy. Not you. How do you know? What, are you God or something? Oh, shit. I forgot. Sorry.

posted by tselson at 03:03 PM on January 18, 2007

My parsing is almost Godlike.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:00 PM on January 18, 2007

Of course no matter who you meant it for, "pussy" is still name calling and a personal. So jersey, why is it okay for fatma to do it Because it was a joke. Because of the intent behind the remark. Kind of like your brother saying "hey jerk" when you take the last piece of cake is different than the random guy you cut off in traffic saying it. If you're saying that you were joking also, then we'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. Now that that's out of the way, let's keep it about the chargers, peyton, and brady or let it go.

posted by justgary at 11:52 PM on January 18, 2007

So jersey, why is it okay for fatma to do it, but not the new guy? I know I'm harping a little, but jeez, I did get vilified earlier. Oh, I know, he was joking, right? I guess that's more okay when you've been here a while too. Maybe I should change my name to hellamartyr. :) Give it a rest. You're not harping a little, you're harping a lot. If you don't have anything to say about the Chargers, or Patriots, then let it go.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:04 AM on January 19, 2007

Give it a rest. You're not harping a little, you're harping a lot. And what are you doing then?

posted by hellamarine at 09:12 AM on January 19, 2007

I think most of the praise for Brady is from his field of work in the playoffs, not from his admittedly poor performance in the game against the Chargers. Rivers did make some good plays right at the end. Not quite good enough to get the kicker in closer. You can blame that on playcalling, wide recievers not getting yac, whatever you want. He played pretty well on the big stage of the playoffs. The closest thing to reading Brady being praised over Rivers (without rereading the whole thread) was early on when someone said Brady should have gone to the Pro Bowl instead of Rivers. That's a whole nother argument. Rivers is young and should have plenty of more chances in the playoffs, especially sharing the backfield with LT.

posted by apoch at 09:24 AM on January 19, 2007

do you realize Brady's QB rating was 57.6? God I hate QB ratings. They don't matter a bit. It's like a guy in hoops going to the free-throw line, his team down by 1, shooting two shots, with tenths of a second left in a huge game. Even if this guy's free-throw percentage is less than 50 percent for the season, if he makes those two particular shots at crunch time in the big game, that's all that matters. He's 100 percent when it mattered most. Brady showed me what he was about in his first Super Bowl appearance. Everyone, including Madden (not that THAT means too much) expected him to run out the clock and play for overtime. After all, he was young, fairly inexperienced, and he ran a huge risk of possibly turning the ball over deep in their own territory and allowing the Rams a chance to win the game. But he calmly led the Pats downfield and, of course, they won the game, starting them on the impressive streak that has made them the best team in recent NFL history. Stats are misleading; Wins are all that's important.

posted by dyams at 11:33 AM on January 19, 2007

Even if this guy's free-throw percentage is less than 50 percent for the season, if he makes those two particular shots at crunch time in the big game, that's all that matters. He's 100 percent when it mattered most. The problem is, maybe next season that player (or someone on his team) doesn't get a chance to make those important free throws because they are trailing by 10 instead of 2 (or they don't play an important game), a result of "Mr. Clutch" still throwing up bricks earlier in the game (or season). Or, maybe if he wasn't "Joe the Bricklayer" earlier in the game, those later free throws wouldn't have been as important. Brady showed me what he was about in his first Super Bowl appearance. Everyone, including Madden (not that THAT means too much) expected him to run out the clock and play for overtime. After all, he was young, fairly inexperienced, and he ran a huge risk of possibly turning the ball over deep in their own territory and allowing the Rams a chance to win the game. I'm not sure why you give the credit to Brady when it was obviously Belichick who made the decision to "go for it". Yes, give credit to Brady for not throwing an interception, but that's his job. The overall decision making was the coach's, not his. Stats are misleading; Wins are all that's important. Individual stats are important; associating wins to a single player in a team sport like football is misleading. Individual players don't win games, but great ones help their teams win. How do we know they are great? By the stats the produce on the field.

posted by grum@work at 01:37 PM on January 19, 2007

Yes, give credit to Brady for not throwing an interception, but that's his job. The overall decision making was the coach's, not his. Pretty much the team concept idea exactly. Sum is greater than the whole of its parts and what not. Brady is an outstanding individual, but unlike other sports you almost always need someone else to help your success. Whether it's a a tough catch, huge block, clean handoff, great pass or tough call from the sideline there's almost always two or more parts to the equation. How do we know they are great? By the stats the produce on the field. grum, I'd never question your ability to accurately use stats, but don't you have to frame any football statistical discussion completely differently than any baseball or free-throw-esque discussion? I feel like it's pretty accepted that QB rating is anything but a perfect system, but in lieu of it there would be nothing.

posted by YukonGold at 08:30 PM on January 19, 2007

Not only a prime defensive back but a shooter too? How's your slider? Could be a triple threat.

posted by YukonGold at 07:49 AM on January 20, 2007

No question about the comfortability of Brady vs. Manning. I think that's why you're seeing such a stark difference between earlier in the year and now with the Pats passing game. Caldwell was brought in as a free agent, so I wouldn't call him a cast off. But the Patriots have always found diamonds from the trash heap. Branch, Givens, Patten...none of these guys are unbelievable receivers, they developed into something with Brady. They certainly aren't experiencing the same success without him.

posted by YukonGold at 08:08 AM on January 20, 2007

grum, I'd never question your ability to accurately use stats, but don't you have to frame any football statistical discussion completely differently than any baseball or free-throw-esque discussion? I feel like it's pretty accepted that QB rating is anything but a perfect system, but in lieu of it there would be nothing. Agreed. There has to be some sort of method of separating individual accomplishments from team assistance. For wide receivers, you'd have to examine things like "yards after catch" and "dropped passes". For running backs, you might need to examine "net yards per carry", which would take into account how the second and third running backs do with the same offensive line. For quarterbacks, you'd need to count "passes on target", interceptions per attempts and average yards per throw (not including runs after the catch). To be honest, touchdowns are not great measurement tools for quarterbacks since they are usually just 5-yard out patterns, or regular passes where the receiver has broken a tackle and scampered for the remaining 30 yards. Yes, the occasional streak pattern or hail-mary should count. If I was more of a football fan, I'd probably visit this site more often.

posted by grum@work at 02:05 PM on January 20, 2007

Shit's a little dry though. I used to subscribe, but there's only so many articles about DVOA I can read. Not quite the same as baseball.

posted by yerfatma at 04:04 PM on January 20, 2007