11/05/24
December 09, 2006
ESPN: Smith Wins Heisman: Troy Smith became the first player from Ohio State to win the Heisman since 1995.
posted by nort_12345 to football at 10:10 PM - 31 comments
There was really no one who was super good even Troy Smith was way overrated and i'm an Ohio State fan the best player was probably that running back from arkansas
posted by sleepr at 10:59 PM on December 09, 2006
Not that I don't think he deserved it, but I find it interesting Smith won the Heisman as overwhelmingly as he did. Sure seems like the award's simply going to the QB/RB on the highest ranked time nowadays (granted, not always- just most the time).
posted by jmd82 at 11:44 PM on December 09, 2006
Does anyone even care anymore?
posted by tieguy at 08:15 AM on December 10, 2006
I think people still care about the Heisman. However Smith doesn't generate much excitement.There is no charismatic player(or team) this year.
posted by sickleguy at 09:06 AM on December 10, 2006
Looking at the Heisman winners from years past, I sort of wished there could be an award that recognised consistent achievement over an entire college career (other than, y'know, getting drafted). Being judged year-on-year can mean rewarding the best of a less-than-stellar bunch, or having to pass over very good players because they were outclassed by great ones: Brady Quinn was up there knowing that he had a far better '05 season, which must be gutting, because he was always going to be judged against that standard.
posted by etagloh at 09:25 AM on December 10, 2006
Quinn's biggest achievement is having been drastically overrated for four years. This blog post gives a great breakdown of his career. Summary: weak.
posted by tieguy at 09:44 AM on December 10, 2006
Tieguy, are you serious? That blog is a piece of shit. You don't throw 90+ TD's and 12000 yds in D-1 football if you suck ass. If you notice, all of the games that ND lost (which you consider big games) the defense surrendered an average of 35+ points a game. It's hard to pass when everyone knows it's coming. The guy is gonna be a good QB at the next level, I wouldn't say a star, but he is definately capable of playing at the next level. Now that I have defended my beloved ND, I must acknowledge the fact that Smith is/was a more than deserving winner. He has shown a tremedous amount of improvement from his early years at OSU. This is a reminder of what hard work and dedication can accomplish.
posted by yay-yo at 10:07 AM on December 10, 2006
For what it is worth, I don't think the linked article says he sucks ass- just that he's not Heisman-caliber, and he hasn't really done anything other than rack up big numbers against really, really mediocre opponents. The numbers aren't bad, they're just Heisman-caliber. He's #14 in QB rating for college QBs this season, #22 in completion percentage, #36 in yards/attempt, #8 in total yardage. I'll grant he's #3 in touchdowns, but he's also 50% behind Colt Brennan in that stat. So... is he bad? No. Is he great? Not in the slightest, tiniest bit. [The career numbers, by the way, really aren't that impressive over a four year career. Fully a dozen QBs playing this year would have those career numbers if you took this year's numbers and extrapolated them out to being a four year starter.] Or to put it another way: if Quinn had played anywhere except Notre Dame, he'd be regarded as a very decent QB that most schools would be happy to have. But no way he's ever even mentioned as a Heisman candidate. I think it is a sign of how bad ND football has been the past decade that ND fans slobber all over him.
posted by tieguy at 11:29 AM on December 10, 2006
I guess it's another case of wait 10 years and see. Anyone who thinks they have the credibility to trash Quinn's numbers is a moron. The guy had an awesome college career. Was he the best college quarterback ever? No. But, we all know who the best NFL quarterback ever, was. Joe Montana. And what? That's right, Quinn busted all of his records. So if you think stats are so important, Quinn will be the next coming of Jesus when he gets to the NFL. Just give the guy the respect that he deserves. If you watched any of the games that they did lose, you would have noticed that he never gives up. He's also not afraid to sacrifice his body and run for the 1st when they need it. It takes more than Stats to be a great Quarterback.
posted by yay-yo at 11:53 AM on December 10, 2006
I think the most telling statistic from that article is the 18-17 record when the service academies, Stanford, and BYU are removed. In addition to the 0-2 record in bowl games, it shows that while Quinn may be a decent quarterback he is by no means great. Tieguy also makes very good points in his comment. I guess it's another case of wait 10 years and see. Anyone who thinks they have the credibility to trash Quinn's numbers is a moron. I suppose they're the same people that trashed Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, and Ty Detmer. It takes more than Stats to be a great Quarterback. It's called winning against good teams. Something Quinn hasn't done.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:01 PM on December 10, 2006
And they trashed Gino Torretta too. And look how that turned... oh, wait. You can be a great QB without great stats, I agree; but if you don't have great stats, you have to have great wins. Montana had great college wins (and, I might add, racked up his stats in one fewer year as a starter than Quinn); Quinn doesn't have so much as a single great win. He doesn't really even have any very good wins- at least, none that you can credit to his leadership or passing ability. So lacking that, you've got to look at the stats- and like I said, they are pretty good, but not great. It is of course possible that he'll be a great pro- hell, Tony Romo is looking pretty good as a NFL QB, so stranger things have happened. But if I had to put my money on his NFL success, I'd guess he'll be a lot closer to Brian Griese than Bob Griese. Again- not bad, but not legendary at all. ND fans should be giving him a very nice pat on the back on the way out the door, saying honest thanks for a job pretty well done, and praying they find someone better if they want to actually earn their way into the BCS in the future.
posted by tieguy at 12:45 PM on December 10, 2006
I suppose they're the same people that trashed Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, and Ty Detmer. You just took this way too far. Everybody gets trashed by someone. It's called winning against good teams. Something Quinn hasn't done. Yeah, I guess he should have played cornerback too. He has performed well against the "good" teams, but the defense is not on the same level as the offense. That is why they have not won those games, PERIOD! Without Quinn, they wouldn't have even had a chance in those games. (what would you be saying if Bush never pushed Leinart in the end zone?) Also, how about the fact that he only has 5 INT's on over 400 passes? Does that not show great decision making? Like I said before, if you try to look at this guys numbers and say that he is "weak" or "sorry" or "lame" then you don't know shit about football. I could understand not liking a guy, but the numbers don't lie.
posted by yay-yo at 12:46 PM on December 10, 2006
He has performed well against the "good" teams, but the defense is not on the same level as the offense. An 0-4 record vs. USC? 0-2 in bowl games? In his two wins against Michigan, he only threw for a combined 318 yards, four touchdowns and three interceptions. The numbers don't lie, Brady Quinn is not Heisman caliber.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:45 PM on December 10, 2006
He just won what Vince Young should've won last year!
posted by luther70 at 01:48 PM on December 10, 2006
It's called winning against good teams. Something Quinn hasn't done. Oh just stop. As Quinn has matured, the defense has gotten worse. I don't think he's a Heismann candidate, but he's a solid QB and has played well plenty of times. What does 0-4 against USC prove when they've been the class of college football during that streak? Oh right, that they play tough teams. And you just spent a month bitching about how Notre Dame gets into bowl games they don't belong in. Now you want Quinn to apologize for not winning those games? Could you turn down the homerism a little?
posted by yerfatma at 01:49 PM on December 10, 2006
Make no mistake, the numbers can at least be misleading, especially as a predictor of success at the next level. Having said that, I expect Quinn to do well as a pro (unless Detroit drafts him since they can ruin any QB). ND has fielded a good team the last couple of years, and I think that Quinn is a big reason why they've flirted with moving from good to great. They didn't get there, but the defense did fail to show up in many of the "big" losses, so you can't pile all the blame on Quinn. The real point of this thread dealt with Smith. As a Wolverine, it pains me to say it, but he's deserving. His game has really developed, but he's also become a heck of a leader.
posted by ctal1999 at 01:53 PM on December 10, 2006
Great quarterbacks win at least some games in spite of their D- Montana did it early in his career; Elway and Marino did it (especially Marino- lord knows he wona ton of games despite a lousy D.). I don't believe that truly great QBs can always will you to a championship that way (just too many games to win in a row) but great QBs can, at least once a season, hell, once in a career, take the game over, say 'I'm going to win it', and do it. Quinn never showed that. To put it in purely Notre Dame terms- Montana would have figured out how to win one of those games against USC. Quinn did not. Does this make him a bad QB? No. Very few QBs have figured out how to beat USC over the past four years*. But it does mean he's not a great QB and not Heisman-caliber. *Vince Young, no matter what happens the rest of his football career for good or bad, will always be remembered in football lore for what he did against USC. That is what separates a great college QB from a good one.
posted by tieguy at 01:55 PM on December 10, 2006
There shouldn't even have been any finalists. I'm a ND Fan, and Troy Smith devserved it 1000 times more than Quinn.I'm not saying Mcfadden didn't deserve it, because the SEC is the toughest in the Nation. Smith isn't as good as Vince Young and I think Quinn has a better chance in the NFL than Smith. Smith The Clear Cut winner Congrats man. Good luck in the NFL, I'll be rooting for you.
posted by yachts360 at 02:56 PM on December 10, 2006
Okay, perhaps I shouldn't have focused on Quinn, although I do think he faced the unenviable proposition of having his best college year essentially counted against him. That's to say, if your best season doesn't get you a Heisman because the competition's better, you're not likely to get one in subsequent seasons. Not that I'm saying that Quinn wuz robbed. Smith was a deserving winner. But in other news, Jason White now works at a car dealership in Oklahoma.
posted by etagloh at 06:55 PM on December 10, 2006
If you really want to go there, then let's take a look at what the Heisman is. It is awarded to "THE BEST COLLEGE FOOTBALL PLAYER". Not the MVP or the person with the most gaudy stats. So if you take the Heisman for what it is, McFadden or Slayton should have won the award hands down. Smith could easily win an MVP award for college football, but I doubt that he is the BEST COLLEGE FOOTBALL PLAYER. Having said that, I probably would have voted for Smith because of my misconception of what the Heisman is. This award should always be given to a player that participates on both sides of the ball and is successful. That would truly be the best football player.
posted by yay-yo at 08:10 PM on December 10, 2006
hopefully the texans wont pass on smith as they passed on young
posted by Barry-from-H-town at 08:53 PM on December 10, 2006
Jason White also had knee injuries and couldn't get drafted because of it.
posted by lil'red at 09:57 PM on December 10, 2006
To put it in purely Notre Dame terms- Montana would have figured out how to win one of those games against USC. Who did Montana beat in college that he shouldn't have? It sounds like you're comparing what the pro Joe would have done vs. the college Brady. If Montana was finding such ways to win at ND, why was he a 3rd-round choice?
posted by yerfatma at 05:35 AM on December 11, 2006
I'm not an expert in ND history by any stretch, but Wikipedia suggests his 'Comeback Joe' nickname was first applied in college after some come-from-behind victories, and he did upset a #1 Texas team in the '78 Cotton Bowl. Having been born in that same '78, I'm not sure I can speak to why he was or wasn't drafted higher. :)
posted by tieguy at 06:10 AM on December 11, 2006
Who did Joe Montana beat in college he shouldn't have? 1978 Cotton Bowl, #5 Notre Dame 38, #1 Texas 10 1979 Cotton Bowl, Notre Dame and Joe rally from 22 down in the 4th quarter to beat the University of Houston 35-34 in the one of the greatest games I've ever seen.
posted by mjkredliner at 09:56 AM on December 11, 2006
Fair enough. Being born in '75, I didn't know either. Why did he last so long in the draft?
posted by yerfatma at 10:06 AM on December 11, 2006
Character problems?
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 10:39 AM on December 11, 2006
This is from Montana's wikipedia entry, but without a citation: "Before the 1979 draft, one scouting combine rated Montana a 6½ (out of 9). The report said: "He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools, but could eventually start.""
posted by Venicemenace at 11:36 AM on December 11, 2006
Well he had a pretty good primary receiver in the NFL.
posted by louisville_slugger at 11:41 AM on December 11, 2006
Montana didn't exactly fit the prototype description of an NFL quarterback when he came out of college. Back then they were looking for the big, tall pocket-type passers with the ultra-strong arm. It seems his game would have made him a much higher draft pick if he was to come out of college today. And yes, he did have fantastic weapons while in San Francisco, but Montana had his hand in making Jerry Rice great just as Rice had a hand in making Montana great. That's how dominating, memorable teams are made up. Another thing to remember with regards to where certain players go in drafts, there's an interesting piece in ESPN Magazine about Ozzie Newsome and the Ravens, and how they've been successful with not only first-round draft picks, but with picks in the later rounds, by being willing to deviate from the typical draft process where teams go with draft services in order to get much of their information on players. The Ravens draft guys based on their own, in-house research and screening process, which even includes a grade based on the player's van ride from the airport with a staffer when meeting with the team. It seems as if the teams who don't always choose to go with the accepted, mass-evaluations of college talent and take some risks based on potential are the teams that benefit the most. The comments written about Montana while he was in college reminded me why so many teams probably chose to pass on him.
posted by dyams at 11:53 AM on December 11, 2006
Everyone who's surprised by this raise your hand. ... That's what I thought. No argument from me, either.