August 29, 2006

That really does suck, and I hope he's OK. When the Sox were thinking things couldn't get any worse, now they find themselves playing without Manny or Papi. If these guys don't find their way back into the everyday lineup very, very soon, the Sox will fall like a sack of cement. Their pitching, especially their middle relief, is already in shambles. But, keeping things in perspective, Ortiz' health is the real serious issue.

posted by dyams at 10:55 AM on August 29, 2006

I was watching some of the A's-Red Sox game last night and you realize just how much of a loss it is for them to have Manny and Ortiz missing. Loretta in the 3 spot? Youkilis batting clean-up? Kind of reminded me of some Cardinals games earlier this year when Pujols was on the DL and Rolen missed a few games. The loss of superstar players can make very good teams very ordinary. It's hard to say just when a season is looking like a lost cause, but it looks to me from recent games I have watched that the Red Sox have given up on this one.

posted by holden at 10:59 AM on August 29, 2006

The Ortiz stuff concerns me. A lot. 2006 Red Sox. What to say. Injuries killed them. It was actually a perfect storm really - Injuries across the board, slumps in offense and pitching either due to wear/injury or replacement players being called up. I didn't expect an easy ride all the way through if we were going with the younger players, but you can never anticipate injuries to this extent. You can look at the different angles - Maybe they shouldn't have traded Arroyo, maybe they should have made an acquisition at the deadline, but with the injuries (Especially to Ortiz) I don't know if we had Arroyo now or someone else... if it'd make a difference at this point. Pitching was in trouble all year long and Varitek being hurt/out just double underscored it. They need a reliable veteran presence in the bullpen. They need a bullpen. Javy Lopez is awful. Ortiz is having heart palpitations, Francona's bleeding from the mouth... I'm waiting for someone to come down with leprosy.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:19 AM on August 29, 2006

Is there a comparison for this type of player loss anywhere else??? Well, Sheffield and Matsui were out nearly all season, but to see these guys both get hurt for Boston, at the same time is terrible. The Yankees have enough firepower in their other players to get by, but without your two big guys- your offense sucks. Right now Boston will be lucky to play .500 ball the rest of the season.

posted by Kendall at 11:30 AM on August 29, 2006

The Sox are fallin' apart like a cheap suit. The writers that cover the team, and many of their fans are even down on them it seems, too. "The-Sox-Held-Hostage-By-Manny-Tour Takes A Toll On Everyone" "This is not to suggest that Manny Ramirez is faking, but his curious on-again, off-again availability-- coupled with the increasingly frequent necessity to remove him from games-- gives the manager fits and is taking the team down." - Dan Shaughnessy, Boston Globe, 08/28/06 "He said he couldn't play. What the (expletive) do you want me to do?' Red Sox manager Terry Francona snapped yesterday morning when asked about Manny Ramirez' absence from the lineup prior to his lifeless team's loss 6-3 loss to the Seattle Mariners. "If a guy says he can't play, he can't (expletive) play. Go ask him. He said he couldn't (expletive) play." -Tony Massarotti, Boston Herald. 08/28/06 Manny being Manny. Nice of him to step up when he's needed.

posted by mjkredliner at 11:44 AM on August 29, 2006

Manny being Manny. Nice of him to step up when he's needed Yeah, MVP numbers while playing like 95% of the team's games. What a slacker.

posted by yerfatma at 11:59 AM on August 29, 2006

justgary, with 8 1-run losses this month for the BoSox, and much of the lineup already out, it seems to me that all hands are needed on deck. Of course, I don't think like a Boston fan. In two of those losses Manny only pinch hit or sat out. Getting swept by KC and Seattle, losing 2 of 3 to Tampa Bay, and of course the 5 game blowout to the hated Yankees does not bode well for the men from Beantown, but, I have learned to never rule them out. I bet they make it interesting at the least.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:18 PM on August 29, 2006

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways, I shall not do so again, haha! Like you said, you don't think like a Boston fan, so it'd go without saying, I suppose, that you wouldn't know about Shaughnessy's reputation around here. Suffice it to say, he's not someone you want to quote to bolster an argument.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:24 PM on August 29, 2006

justgary, with 8 1-run losses this month for the BoSox, and much of the lineup already out, it seems to me that all hands are needed on deck. So he could have made a difference in maybe 2 games? Look, all I'm saying is that looking at the lineup last night manny doesn't do enough alone. Looking at the lineup last night they're not going anywhere anyway. Besides, they'd pitch around him. So even if manny could push through the pain right now, why would you want him to? And what jerseygirl said about Shaughnessy. Manny's had a monster year, and was one of the few who showed up for the yankee series. And now with everything going wrong Shaughnessy falls back on a manny being manny story. He's a joke.

posted by justgary at 12:30 PM on August 29, 2006

This household went into "wait 'til next year" mode after the debacle in Tampa and KC. Like most of the above comments, we also really love the bashing of (insert villain here...) that goes on in what tried to pass for the media in Boston. Dan Shaughnessy is a joke. Maybe ESPN will do us a favor and appoint him as one of their talking heads. At least then we can exercise the mute button whenever he appears. How about this for a conspiracy theory? The Boston Globe is owned by The New York Times. The NYT management has ordered the Globe to retain Shaughnessy and to encourage his outrageous negativity just to pxxx off the Red Sox' players and management. This will eventually encourage the better players to leave town, hopefully answering the siren call of Georgie's billions. Oh well, maybe not, but I just don't really understand the need to blame somebody for all the injuries. Wait a minute! Didn't the team fire a very popular trainer after last season? There it is, the root cause of all the injury woes. How do I get this scoop to Shaughnessy?

posted by Howard_T at 12:47 PM on August 29, 2006

The Red Sox got Adam Dunn? No. Shawon Dunston. I always felt that Ortiz had an abnormal heartrate, in that it only seems to beat in the seventh inning and later of close games, but I never considered it a medical problem ("phenomenon," yes, but not a "problem"). I sincerely hope that everything turns out well, and that we can enjoy Papi's exuberance and clutchness for manny, manny years. My best to David. As for the Sox, man, when it rains it pours. Little consolation probably, but at least you're not "stuck" with this guy. Or even this guy. Reggie Jackson calling A-Rod a "problem" is like Sean Penn criticizing Kenny Rogers for poor decorum. There is no bigger jackass in the whole universe than Reggie Jackson. And I'm including Pluto.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:00 PM on August 29, 2006

Kire, this is insanely similar to being a Cub fan. Our rotation outside of Zambrano is basically made up entirely of people who should be in the minors. It's so lame to use injuries as a constant excuse, but man, sometimes it's hard not to. In all seriousness though, good luck to Ortiz and his serious condition.

posted by HaHaSports at 01:33 PM on August 29, 2006

Well the Tigers won it in 1984, so using your logic, they need to wait another 64 years huh?

posted by jerseygirl at 01:45 PM on August 29, 2006

I hear a fat lady warming up.

posted by dbt302 at 02:21 PM on August 29, 2006

I hear a fat lady warming up. In relation to . . .

posted by yerfatma at 03:02 PM on August 29, 2006

Well the Tigers won it in 1984, so using your logic, they need to wait another 64 years huh? God lets hope not. I'd be 114 and I don't plan on living that long!

posted by commander cody at 05:12 PM on August 29, 2006

If the Sox can get anyone substantial for Wells, AAA or better, than I don't care how many games out they are its a good move. The only 43 year-old worth anything is Roger Clemens. And even Clemens is a stretch. If you can win this year than great but whenever you admit to yourself as an organization that you can't win this year than its time to build for next year.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 06:33 PM on August 29, 2006

hi Mars314. Welcome. So you don't get off to more of a wrong foot here... Feel free to read the Sportsfilter guidelines. These parts may be of certain interest to you, in particular. Take the time to put thought and substance into your posts and comments. Help SportsFilter maintain its reputation as a thoughtful community with discussion a cut above the typical sports site. and SportsFilter is not a fan board. If your idea of discussion is "yankees suck, red sox rule," SportsFilter is not for you. Again, welcome and I hope you want to be a part of our community.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:03 PM on August 29, 2006

Ah, I see JG took the classy route. Sorry for being a bit touchy on this issue. Two words: Reggie Lewis.

posted by Venicemenace at 07:13 PM on August 29, 2006

I'm glad you're enjoying David Ortiz' heart problems. I almost fell out of my chair- nice one venicemenace. ; )

posted by Kendall at 07:25 PM on August 29, 2006

the red sox forfitted their playoff spot as soon as the last out was recorded in the five game slaughtering of bostons beloved BoSox. One huge difference between the yanks and sox is thee yankees scrubs and back ups can hold down the fort and more in the midst of key injuries, (i wont even go in to the performance by general management at the deadline, cough, ABREU, LIDLE, WILSON, FASANO, cough) where as guys like lopez, lester, kapler, cora etc. can't do much more than watch baseballs flying by them- by them in the field and by them at the plate. STRIKE 3, THE REDSOX ARE OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS!!

posted by bronxbomber at 07:53 PM on August 29, 2006

bronxbomber... feel free to apply the note I sent to mars314 to yourself. Just save me the typing. Also... you've been here long enough to know better.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:17 PM on August 29, 2006

As much as I hate the tone and logic of bronxbomber (the name alone makes me think of some arrogant kid who escaped from the 70's) I have to admit that you might be right. Sometimes it just isn't your year, now whether or not K-rod and Lidle (4.74 era with Philly, 4.15 with NY) can admit that this isn't their year is another story.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 08:25 PM on August 29, 2006

Venicemenace, 2 elderly outfielders? a little bit of a stretch. 2 100+ RBI guys. Anyway, Posado been battling injury, A-Rods had a virus for a week or two, Pavano just got injured AGAIN, Farnsworth has had a bad back all year, CANO just got back after getting hurt around the all-star break, and Mussina always has back trouble. Un-expected starters/contributers:Melky Cabrea, Sal Fasano, Arron Guiel, Ron Vallone, Craig Wilson, Procter who pitches virtually every day, Andy Phillips, Bubba Crosby, & Bernie Williams (huge help! and he wasnt evenn gonna come back and wasn't expecting any playing time.)

posted by bronxbomber at 10:36 PM on August 29, 2006

I appreciate the change in moniker, Kendall. I think we all do, thanks again, Kendall.

posted by tommybiden at 10:45 PM on August 29, 2006

I firmly maintain, as I have on other threads, that the Yankees' capacity to sustain injuries to their stars is much, much greater than other teams because they have WAY more depth and can always grab the Abreus of the world when they need them. That said -- Of course it's true that Sheffield and Matsui are great players - in particular I have a lot of respect for Godzilla and I am always nervous when Sheff bats against my team. Losing them has been a setback, sure, but if you look at the Yankee lineup on any given day, it's still basically an all-star team. Look at the Red Sox lineup in recent days. Mark Loretta at DH!?!? It's not even a close comparison. When injuries strike, other teams are screwed, but the Yanks roll on because they have a ton of veterans and can always eat a huge contract. That's not a mortal sin, but I object when people want to give them undeserved credit. Of course you have to give credit to one of the best manager-GM combos in all of baseball...those guys are spectacular at their jobs. It's not 100% about the budget. As far as Lester goes, Bronxbomber, what you said was "Lester...can't do much more than watch baseballs fly by [him]...in the field". While this is not exactly "Lester is worthless" it's in the neighborhood, and you can't expect me to read your mind and know that you think he's a quality arm going forward, as I do. So BB, I will not hold it over your head when he becomes an ace, as Holden has stepped forward to claim that responsibility. Mostly, though, I simply got steamed at this Hoo-Rah Yankee boasting on a thread about David Ortiz' heart problems. If Derek Jeter got cancer you would NOT find me on the thread saying "HELL YEAH, YANKEES SUCK!!!". And I would openly denounce any Red Sox fan who did anything of the sort.

posted by Venicemenace at 11:35 PM on August 29, 2006

by the way the only one who is not a fan of boston or ny (holden) agreed with me!:))

posted by bronxbomber at 12:28 AM on August 30, 2006

by the way the only one who is not a fan of boston or ny (holden) agreed with me!:)) Agreed with what? He said he felt Lester would be a league-average pitcher. You said, and I can't help but quote, " . . . guys like lopez, lester, kapler, cora etc. can't do much more than watch baseballs flying by them- by them in the field and by them at the plate. STRIKE 3, THE REDSOX ARE OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS!!" (I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to compare and contrast this statement with "I hate all the crap about yankees suck or redsox suck . . . ") Either way, there's a decent chance holden's wrong, given Jon Lester is 22. We'll put it into the books and see how it works out.

posted by yerfatma at 06:06 AM on August 30, 2006

*I believe any or all of this may come back to haunt me via yerfatma's predictions database I'm not currently in that database and I feel kinda left out, so here goes... If you live in or around Boston prep yourself, once again, for another off-season of Manny trade rumors. There will be a lot of wind and eventually ESPN will be leading with it. But you know what's gonna happen? Nothing. No way. The Red Sox need him to win and no one is gonna change that.

posted by YukonGold at 07:22 AM on August 30, 2006

I'm not currently in that database and I feel kinda left out, so here goes... Here's another couple. Dan Shaugnessy writes a column stating how letting Damon go was the beginning of another curse, let's call it the Curse of the Idiots. Boston Dirt Dogs has a 72 point font headline stating that the whole team except for Ortiz, Varitek, Schilling and Papelbon need to go. Cycle of reactionary, fatalistic and self-loathing coverage by Boston media continues. Wash, rinse and repeat.

posted by holden at 07:44 AM on August 30, 2006

when you've got an extra $100 million worth of budget to pad the roster with quality backups and eat other teams' bad contracts If that's the reason for the Yankees' success (as many Sox fans like to claim), what's stopping Sox management from doing the same thing?

posted by qbert72 at 07:55 AM on August 30, 2006

I honestly think they feel they're better than that. Oof. I honestly think they're trying to run a profitable franchise and one of their goals is to stay under the luxury tax threshold. The Sox have boatloads of cash compared to all other teams and a revenue stream that might let them go toe-to-toe with the Yanks. I don't think they care too and they have the luxury of casting themselves as Flinty Yankees (i.e., New Englanders) which works in the region in spite of managements' boatloads of cash and carpetbagger status.

posted by yerfatma at 10:17 AM on August 30, 2006

I was going to FPP it, but we seem to have reached some sort of quota of Yankees and Red Sox FPPs the past few days, so here is an article from Baseball Prospectus assessing whether Papelbon should stay as a reliever or be moved to a starter. (I think that article is free content; forgive me if it's not.) While the article is somewhat inconclusive as to the question at hand (it appears there will be follow-up articles on the issue), I think the inquiry is headed in the direction of concluding that Papelbon is best off as a reliever, contra my suggestion here.

posted by holden at 11:51 AM on August 30, 2006

The Yankees just patch the holes (with terrible players, but MLB/AAA quality nonetheless with a minor league system that is deeper than anybody wants to give them for) and keep on rolling with the healthy stars (Posada, Giambi, ARod, Jeter, Damon)and the really good replacements they've had waiting in Columbus all along. Fixed that. 11 of the 25 guys on the Yankees roster are home grown. 6 of their 13 position players. When the Yanks had no solution at 2B last year with Womack -- up pops Cano. When the Yankees rotation was taking a beating with Wright and Pavano last year -- up pops Wang. (Hm. Yeah. Well.) When Torre wasn't sure how his bullpen was going to shape up coming out of spring training -- Scott Proctor stepping up. Matsui to DL -- up springs Melky Cabrera, who is not only not "terrible" or "MLB/AAA quality," but has become almost as popular in New York as Matsui himself. Mussina goes on the DL and now here is Jeff Karstens. Enough with the "Yankees can compensate for having garbage at two positions" or "it's a roster of overpaid backups." While, yes, they have the luxury of Bernie as a backup, and have had one or two "experiments" that haven't been the solution, it's the much-maligned and wildly underrated Yankee farm system that has been saving their fat from year-to-year.

posted by BullpenPro at 12:09 PM on August 30, 2006

amen

posted by bronxbomber at 01:26 PM on August 30, 2006

BullpenPro - Thank you very much for your post! I'm so sick of everyone saying that the Yankees just fill in the gaps with money players and keep rolling on. The truth is that they have been one of the best franchises at using their farm system to "grow" MLB-level players. And then they've been using those players to fill in most of the gaps. Yes, they do use the cash when they have to (or want to), but the majority of their "fill-ins" have been from their farm system. And these "fill-ins" have turned into very good MLB players.

posted by BigTallChris at 01:49 PM on August 30, 2006

Although...Bobby Abreu doesn't hurt in one of those corner outfield spots. Pretty sure he's not a Yankee product. Sorry, it's a snarky comment but I had to do it

posted by YukonGold at 01:57 PM on August 30, 2006

Now Coco Crisp is hurt and a late scratch from the lineup. The whole injury thing is getting almost comical. If a meteor fell from the heavens, crushed the team bus and killed everyone on board, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.

posted by jerseygirl at 03:05 PM on August 30, 2006

ptluigi, i'm a yankee fan too. but when i want to do the "rah rah, yankees win" thing i go here. might be a good idea if you do the same.

posted by goddam at 03:31 PM on August 30, 2006

I was supposed to have a Spo-Fi fantasy team, but somebody canceled the whole season on me. It's a snarky comment, but I had to do it. Touché. I'll make sure to tell my son I need to add one more to the list. I promise my wife will not be pregnant come the time for next season's draft. Now THERE'S something for the prediction database On preview - But Gary, now it's all out of context. That's some serious annoyment.

posted by YukonGold at 03:50 PM on August 30, 2006

I wasn't going after your comment as much as I was Grum's, who took your point a step further when he said "terrible players." I object to that. Please don't tell me that "terrible" is an incorrect description for: Miguel Cairo (215 PA, .576 OPS) Nick Green (106 PA, .580 OPS) Terrance Long (40 PA, .444 OPS) Bubba Crosby (96 PA, .557 OPS) Kelly Stinnett (87 PA, .586 OPS) Andy Phillips (242 PA, .680 OPS) The one fill-in that has been good (almost great, really) is Aaron Guiel (99 PA, .838 OPS) and he was a waiver-wire pickup from KC. Cano was the projected starter, so he's not a "fill-in". Cabrera was in NY last year, and was projected to be the 5th OF from the beginning. His .764 OPS is acceptable as a 5th OF, but there is no way to suggest that he's "great" (at least, not yet) and it doesn't (currently) cut it as a 3rd OF. Williams as the 4th OF (394PA, .787 OPS) is not the Williams of old, but he gets the job done as a filler bat. As a starter, it's not good enough (hence the planned reduced role for him). Kevin Thompson might have got the job done (.881 OPS) but they only gave him 22PA I understand that you don't like people slagging your team (Yankees), and that some of the comments (they buy themselves a pennant) are uncalled for. But don't take it too far and attack someone for pointing out that the replacement players (or backups) for the Yankees are "terrible".

posted by grum@work at 04:18 PM on August 30, 2006

So I guess what I would conclude from that is that the Yankee situation isn't nearly as rosy as you portray Well, I did kind of just throw that up there, but looking at the projections on espn, and current stats, Jeter, arod, and giambi will be over 100. Damon is projected to have 92. Posada is projected to end with 87. Abreu is projected for 97. So if you add sheffield and matsui back in you have 8 players who are possible 100 rbi guys, posada the biggest reach with a projected 87. So, unless I'm missing something, my original statement should have been one of about "8 players".

posted by justgary at 04:47 PM on August 30, 2006

Now you're cooking with gas. I will add that. Everything I do (I do it for you).

posted by YukonGold at 08:02 PM on August 30, 2006

Who knows if Sheffield will even be back this year, and as for Matsui, he just started taking batting practice; who's to say that he'd be able to hit like he was in the spring, or last year? LBB, I completely agree with you. Sheffield is getting on in age and matsui is coming back from a wrist injury. But I was responded to a poster who, when comparing injury situations, said the yankees had lost two 100 rbi players. In fact, I've heard that all season from yankee fans. If you agree with me, that there's no guarantee those two players were worth 200 rbis, that's great, but I assure you that you're in the minority. So going with what the poster said it's pretty easy adding the three definite rbi guys and picking one more out of the multitude of other possibilities to make 6. I'm actually having a hard time figuring out where your argument with my statement is coming from. The yankees will have 2 definite 100 rbi guys, 2 probable, and a couple of more in the 90s. Those are all possible 100 rbi guys. The point being the yankees could lose 2 possible 100 rbi guys (possible...) and still win because they have the talent to overcome injuries. I don't think I painted a rosy picture at all, but a very realistic one. BullpenPro, I wasn't trying to put melky down. He seems a nice enough player, though I'm not as confident of his defense as you are. I'm just saying he can fit in well and help a yankee team full of talent. Melky on the sox, in the state they're in now, is a whole different story. As far as millar, he was out spoken, but I don't think many over rated his talent. And when what little talent he had left, he was gone. If melky is more popular than matsui, it's out of proportion to his contribution, at least at this point. If a meteor fell from the heavens, crushed the team bus and killed everyone on board, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. Well, we had one healthy sub on the bench today, and lester could have cancer. A meteor could be a possibility.

posted by justgary at 11:33 PM on August 30, 2006

43 used & new available from $0.85

posted by YukonGold at 07:21 AM on August 31, 2006

Lester has lymphoma. I'm sure this story will land as an FPP shortly, but since it's an ESPN story and very relevant to where this thread is heading, I figured I'd post it here. Fortunately, the brief details seem to imply that the condition is treatable with a reasonable chance of recovery. Here's more information on the condition. Get well, Jon.

posted by BullpenPro at 07:32 PM on September 01, 2006