March 07, 2006

Under baseball's steriod policy, if Bonds was found to have actually used steroids in the past, nothing would be done about it, right? Can they take away the mans' records?

posted by potpatient at 12:31 PM on March 07, 2006

I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread.

posted by grum@work at 12:33 PM on March 07, 2006

Hey, this could really tarnish his legacy. What do you guys think?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:42 PM on March 07, 2006

i don't think his records would be wiped, but if this book has legitimate clout, it would definitely (further) tarnish his legacy and probably (further) lessen his accomplishments the court of pulic opinion. as much as i dislike barry now, it's too bad he didn't stay "little barry," who flew around the bags and hit for good power. now he's giant barry who hits homeruns left and right, who almost no one outside the bay area respects. that's a shame.

posted by ninjavshippo at 12:49 PM on March 07, 2006

Just a bit of advice for Barry; refrain from using the phrase "Whatever, dude" when testifying to a grand jury.

posted by garfield at 01:03 PM on March 07, 2006

now he's giant barry who hits homeruns left and right, who almost no one outside the bay area respects. that's a shame. It's partly because of McGwire and baseball fans. After '98, I noted to a friend that Bonds looked like he was completely changing his hitting style, i.e. swinging for the fences. I thought, "he's pissed that those other guys broke the biggest record in baseball." And there you go. Remember when there was actual debate about the greatest modern hitter (Griffey vs. Bonds)? Any debate now? Not an excuse, just an observation ...

posted by mrgrimm at 01:05 PM on March 07, 2006

"Told you so" never sounded so sweet.

posted by Masked at 01:11 PM on March 07, 2006

Well, the description of the book makes it sound like an out-and-out smear job on Bonds' character. The information may be researched, and it sure looks damning, and it's not that I don't believe them, but then again, it sounds like that was the point. (My 25-watt bulb of hope that this is all just a big character assassination campaign against a misunterstood misanthropic superhero has shrunk to about the size of a birthday candle.) I'm with grum. I have no doubt that this will be the most civil and classy discussion in Spofi's history.

posted by chicobangs at 01:21 PM on March 07, 2006

Not to excuse Barry, Sammy or Big Mac, but were any of those things they took or supposedly took against MLB rules at the time? (yes they may have been against the law of the state they lived in, but if NBA tested for an illegal substance, say marijuana, the coaches would have to put on unis and pick four other guys from the stands to round out thestarting line ups. In my opinion, the NBA is the biggest crock of crap in pro sports) I do photography on the side, and I am willing to do anything legal to grow my business. For Bonds, Sammy and Big Mac, their business is contingent on their success in baseball Is it right? No. Do I see why they tried to take every little advantage they could? Yes. BTW Valium, Ty Cobb was not only a racist, but also probably a murderer. He pistol whipped a guy. The guy died from the injuries sustained. Chandler

posted by Wrigley South at 01:26 PM on March 07, 2006

Hey Grum, $hit, D@mn, pi$$, etc etc etc. Now that we have killed "rationale discourse" and "Intelligent discussion" out of the way, we may all tell the truth. Chandler

posted by Wrigley South at 01:29 PM on March 07, 2006

I saw him up close the other day in Scottsdale between BP sessions and we talked for a couple of minutes. He says he's clean, has been clean and people should just relax and enjoy the damn game. yerfatma, choking up on the bat would speed it up, wouldn't it?

posted by fenriq at 01:32 PM on March 07, 2006

d dog....your in denial...Look at bonds his first 12 seasons in b-ball (both physically and by the numbers he put up). And now look at the last 8 years... Players generally get better with age and put on some muscle, but come on man, not a player past his prime. And just to show Im not hatting...Big Mac..who I adore, is in the same boat. He was just more secrete about it, and people generally didn't hate him as much.

posted by solrac at 01:44 PM on March 07, 2006

I predict he walks away from the game before the season begins Not going to happen. If he walks away then the television show goes down the tubes too.

posted by scottypup at 01:49 PM on March 07, 2006

bonds is an idiot for taking the juice, just as Damon is an idiot for leaving the RedSox

posted by hardhits1012 at 01:54 PM on March 07, 2006

Does clean mean no steriods? Or does clean mean no performance enhancers of any kind and any type (greenies, cafeine, sudafed, slapstotheface...)? I think too many people treat this like an all or nothing issue and it's genuinely more complicated than that.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:57 PM on March 07, 2006

Yeah but he's a cancer survivor and the French just hate him anyway... Couldn't have said it better myself.

posted by qbert72 at 02:02 PM on March 07, 2006

opposing fans should chant "Steriods! Steriods! Steriods!" it would through him off

posted by hardhits1012 at 02:06 PM on March 07, 2006

That story reduced Bonds to little more than a junkie jonesing for his next fix. It's really rather sad, whether you're a Bonds fan or not. He completely wrecked his body and his psyche for success in a typically short-lived career. If you can look past your hatred for Bonds, there has to be a shred of sympathy for someone who has destroyed himself and his legacy.

posted by willthrill72 at 02:13 PM on March 07, 2006

Maybe you should read the link, bdaddy. The sourcing for the book is lovingly documented.

posted by rcade at 02:18 PM on March 07, 2006

I'd say that Bond's most impressive season wasn't 2001, when he got the magic 73, but rather 2004. His stats that year were incredible and I don't think that they can be considered "steroid inflated"...

posted by slackerman at 02:19 PM on March 07, 2006

Maybe you should read the link, bdaddy. The sourcing for the book is lovingly documented. OK, lets take a look at the sources we obtained transcripts of the secret grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and seven other prominent professional athletes. illegally leaked grand jury testimony confidential memos Sealed material e-mail between BALCO owner Victor Conte and several athletes and coaches regarding the use and distribution of drugs; one might wonder how they have access to BALCO owners email? I'm sure Victor didn't forward it to them. As I said, you really have to love a book based on illegally obtained information that can't be refuted publicly by those involved

posted by bdaddy at 02:23 PM on March 07, 2006

. And this (long-winded) question: when given the opportunity to "testify" against Bonds on 60 Minutes, Victor Conte declined; he said that he sold steroids (etc.) to Anderson, but he had no knowledge connecting them directly to Bonds. In the note on sourcing, the authors claim in several places that Conte did implicate Bonds directly. See here, for example: "In his own statement during the raid, Conte gave an identical account of Anderson's bringing Bonds to BALCO and Bonds's subsequent use of the Cream and the Clear. Conte said Bonds used the drugs on a regular basis. Conte later claimed Novitzky's report contained words he never said." Does anybody have any explanation for that? It seems a bit strange. After he got caught, Conte was happy to talk about Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery to anybody who would listen; but he backed away from Bonds.

posted by Amateur at 02:28 PM on March 07, 2006

Vote Bonds for president!!! By the time his long historic baseball career comes to the end he'll be the most popular American alive. The most hated--maybe--but popular none the less. His name will live in baseball infamy forever. Step aside Babe, kneel down Hanks, here comes Bonds. No doubt bonds used stroids, we didn't need a book to tell us that. But you can't deny him of one thing, and that's he was good. He wasn't the only one using stroids you know.....and yet no one else seemed to be that damn good. And Im not just talking about HR. Last I checked stroids did nothing for patience at the plate. I sure do hate bonds, but hes got my vote for pres..

posted by solrac at 02:56 PM on March 07, 2006

When Bill Clinton lied, nobody died. Wait, sorry...umm...whoops.

posted by diastematic at 03:06 PM on March 07, 2006

Let all athletes use steroids. Then everything will be equal. Sure Roger Maris had his homeruns without them, but then again he hit the homeruns agains pitchers who weren't taking them So Bond's was a little jacked up, then again so were some of the pitchers he faced. It all evens itself out in the end.

posted by Atheist at 03:11 PM on March 07, 2006

I blame the business of baseball more than I blame Barry Bonds. He's an emblem of an era where performance-enhancing drugs were widely accepted. It was an open secret in 1998 that McGwire and Sosa were juiced on something when they were the heros who saved baseball, and I don't think there's a moral difference between what McGwire was using and what Bonds allegedly used. Bonds' biggest problem is that he's a jerk, so he gets criticized and derided when McGwire was idolized for doing basically the same thing. I don't condone using steroids, but I don't think it's fair or logical to single out someone for doing something that was widely acceptable in the sport. MLB (and the fans for the most part) accepted sterioid use. I have a hard time attributing Bonds' success to steroids, because I believe more than a few other players were, too. Baseball Almanac has lists of the top 25 National League home run leaders for 1998 (McGwire led with 70; bonds had 37), 1999 (McGwire 65; Bonds 34), 2000 (Sosa 50; Bonds 49), 2001 (Bonds 70; Sosa 64), 2002 (Sosa 49; Bonds 46), 2003 (Thome 47; Bonds 45), and 2004 (Beltre 48; Bonds 45). Five National League players hit 40 or more home runs in 1998, seven in 1999, nine in 2000, seven in 2001, four in 2002, six in 2003, and six in 2004. Bonds was only way ahead of the pack in 2001. Were those other players juiced, too? I also don't agree with the idea of taking his records away. He set those records by playing the game was it was played in the late 1990s and early 2000s, with players taking steroids. The San Francisco Chronicle has a an article with more, plus a podcast of an interview with the two writers.

posted by kirkaracha at 03:24 PM on March 07, 2006

So Bond's was a little jacked up, then again so were some of the pitchers he faced. It all evens itself out in the end. Finally someone states the obvious. Are we all really naive enough to think that only a few players are guilty of being juiced?

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 03:25 PM on March 07, 2006

As I said, you really have to love a book based on illegally obtained information that can't be refuted publicly by those involved Bonds can refute anything he likes -- to the media and in court with the best libel attorneys money can buy. You can play attack the messenger all you like, but looking at the depth of sourcing on which two professional mainstream journalists appear to have based their book, I don't think it will work. My guess -- and this is as someone who loves to watch Bonds hit more than any other athlete in the game -- is that he's about to have his testosterone-stuffed ass handed to him.

posted by rcade at 03:33 PM on March 07, 2006

The only way you are going to stop players from cheating is to take away their statsrecords when they get busted. We all know that even without this book Bonds had an * on all he's accomplished. As far as I am concerned it goes for any player in any era- if they cheated they forfeit their recordsstats.

posted by irunfromclones at 04:08 PM on March 07, 2006

until we find Bonds with a needle sticking out of his rear, the world may never know....

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 04:24 PM on March 07, 2006

This isn't about steroids or cheaters. This is about people that don't like Barry Bonds period. Why aren't there any threads about Rafael Palmiero? In case anyone forgot, he was actually caught at something. So keep on bashing Barry and he'll keep on bashing your pitching staffs.

posted by SFGiant at 04:28 PM on March 07, 2006

It has alot to do with Bonds being the best.

posted by garfield at 04:35 PM on March 07, 2006

Exactly my point. But shouldn't all these self righteous baseball purists be concerned with making an example of Palmiero? If it wasn't about Barry Bonds then the story would have been dropped just like it was with Palmiero. They all sound like a bunch of whiny 10 year olds. Barry is a cheater. Barry is a cheater.... It's entertainment folks. That's all it is.

posted by SFGiant at 04:38 PM on March 07, 2006

The both have one thing in common. After all the steroid scrutiny neither one of them has hit many home runs. Barry knows everyone hates him and he will play until he is 50 if thats what it takes to break the HR record.

posted by eadifudontlikeit at 04:46 PM on March 07, 2006

Why aren't there any threads about Rafael Palmiero? We've had our Palmiero threads. You must have missed them. The book is about barry, not palmiero, so the thread is about barry. Come on, this is obvious stuff.

posted by justgary at 04:50 PM on March 07, 2006

Look at the can of worms you open princess valium. Prince valium, sorry its the hair. I got nothing in regard to Bonds just wanted to point out the Spaceballs refrence.

posted by HATER 187 at 04:58 PM on March 07, 2006

I had another diatribe all written, but Grum's "Willie Mays" link said it a whole lot better.

posted by Bury Bonds at 05:05 PM on March 07, 2006

I'm a Barry fan, but to say anything about his records being takin' away is just ridiculous. The fact that he is still playing at 42 and not being a pitcher is an accomplishment in it self. Remember, enhancments don't make you hit the ball, they may help you hit it farther. Whats the difference in a 390 ft. shot, or 500 ft. a homerun is just what it is. ps. if you want to talk about numbers raising for a year or two.....does anyone remember Brady Anderson!!! That's the roid boy!!

posted by tubby2522 at 05:17 PM on March 07, 2006

WIND ADVISORY: perpetual, hot air will be blowing inland from the SF bay all day today. And, having a lot of sources isn't really the same as being right. It's impossible to judge whether these are well-supported allegations without taking a look at the sources, none of which are available. very true. as always, this is all speculation, but that's the fun part, right? How many people are out there now cheating their bosses by reading this during company time???? an astute comparison. i guess that means i'll be due a 200% raise as a result of my "cheating." This isn't about steroids or cheaters. This is about people that don't like Barry Bonds period...And isn't also amazing how this story just happened to coincidentally break right at the start of baseball season? Perhaps it wasn't news worthy enough before now or could it be about selling books and magazines? well, no it isn't amazing at all. it's obviously well-timed to inspire interest and boost future sales... but i think you've got the orange and black wraparound glasses on a little too tight if you think only haters care about this book. if there's a chance that the best ballplayer in the history of the game used supplements to get there, i'd say that's newsworthy on its own merits. there are lots of players i don't like for one reason or another, but respect for their game. barry fell out of this category for me a long time ago.

posted by ninjavshippo at 05:20 PM on March 07, 2006

Ya Ya, You can "maintain" a functioning stronger body longer taking enhancements and therefore play at a level others can't. I vote for honest competition not some unreal performance.

posted by westbranch at 05:26 PM on March 07, 2006

>>>Are the prosecutors going after these cases a bunch of Barry haters? no, just opportunists looking for some Larry King time :)

posted by JohnSFO at 05:35 PM on March 07, 2006

an astute comparison. i guess that means i'll be due a 200% raise as a result of my "cheating." that good a hearty chuckle.

posted by garfield at 05:46 PM on March 07, 2006

Hello from the Wine Country. Let me help everyone here. I worked for both the SF Chronicle & Examiner for 8 years. Now, history has shown throughout the years that the Chronicle was the "sensationalist" newspaper and the Examiner was the "establishment" newspaper owned & operated for years by the Hearst family (anyone here remember Patty & her "adventure in Militant Land" in the 70's). Founded in the 1860's, the Chronicle will continue to be the sensationalist newspaper it. So here we have 2 reporters that work for the "Chronicle" and they are going to write this book. The only possibility is as we know, they have to write a "sensationalist" book. So the best way to do that is, as was noted before, they acquire illegally obtained documents and the rest you know, is probably going to be literary history. Also, high intellect is not a requirement of the job itself! You just have to be able to type.

posted by sonofgandalf at 05:58 PM on March 07, 2006

they acquire illegally obtained documents This has come up repeatedly in the thread. So what? Would you have had us ignore the Pentagon Papers?

posted by yerfatma at 06:18 PM on March 07, 2006

Is this the right queue for the trainwreck?

posted by squealy at 06:38 PM on March 07, 2006

Reply to Desert Dog's comment common man, I have done all of the same exercises that barry has, and i've used protein for over 7 years, not to mention the other supplements like creatine and other things, but in no WAY has my body changed anything like his has. He has doubled in size, and you can ask anyone who knows anything about lifting weights. That can't happen unless you use the juice, lets be real

posted by cmsickman at 07:06 PM on March 07, 2006

I don't get the part where just because baseball didn't consider steroids illegal a few years ago makes this OK. Well, if something is not illegal, then what does that make it? Mark McGwire kept Andro in his locker in full sight of the press during his big '97 homer streak. Burleigh Grimes is in the Hall of Fame as a proud spitballer. Ty Cobb beat up cripples in the stands. (Admittedly, that didn't enhance his performance. Fair play to him, then.) Could any of them get away with their behavior in 2006? Of course not. Does it change the fact that when they played, they did their thing at least nominally within the rules of the game? Nope. Doesn't change that one bit. You can't legislate right and wrong. That's why the rulebooks are so thick, and why they get rewritten all the time.

posted by chicobangs at 07:23 PM on March 07, 2006

To be honest, I am so happy for the game of baseball that this kind of stuff is coming out, barry bonds is the worst thing to ever happen to the game, and its just shameful what he's done to it........... I'll never forget arguing with a guy named grum@work on this site who was supporting bonds and his steriod case to me, I love being vindicated, and to the million people I've argued with about this, today I got it. I love baseball and Im just so happy these kind of solid facts could come out about the case, so people could really grasp what this guy was doing.

posted by gregy606 at 07:39 PM on March 07, 2006

The source material looks pretty solid. If the Court of Public Opinion needed a clincher to push it over the edge with Bonds, this should do it.

posted by roberts at 07:48 PM on March 07, 2006

from the article: Bell retained answering machine recordings of him after he threatened to kill her, remarking that if she disappeared no one would be able to prove he even knew her. d'oh!

posted by boltman at 07:57 PM on March 07, 2006

The thing that stands out the most to me and a lot of the people I,ve discussed the Bonds issue is that Barry represents now in a lot of people eyes. The thing that over the years that most of us can't stand in another human being. I don't care if it's an athelete or a freind or family member. The felling of betrayal. I can forgive someone who says I'm sorry I made a mistake. I can't forgive them until they ask for it.

posted by kck54 at 08:00 PM on March 07, 2006

Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision. nope. just durability, recovery and power, i guess.

posted by ninjavshippo at 09:00 PM on March 07, 2006

"Not a Barry fan, but he put the bat on the ball. Last time I checked steroids don't increase vision." posted by tlach at 8:45 PM CST on March 7 It's funny, you didnt even take the time to read the whole article I guess, Bonds clearly notes that he even felt his vision had become noticibly more perceptive.

posted by gregy606 at 09:20 PM on March 07, 2006

True, but if you don't get wood on the ball, it doesn't matter how much power you have.

posted by tlach at 09:42 PM on March 07, 2006

Gregy what he says and scientific data says are two different things. His so called ability to track the ball better was probably mentally induced and no effect to the drug. And on a separate note to nullify his records would be the equivalent to ex post facto. It wasn't a crime, by mlb standards, at the time of the act. Meaning it would be unjust to punish him now.

posted by tlach at 10:01 PM on March 07, 2006

You can rest assured that baseball will not negate any individual record based on any wrong doing. Period. As an aside: There never was an official asterick for Marris. There was no official record book in 1962. I've never believed baseball records should be judged for the whole history of major league baseball. The game of 1910 is drastically different than the game today. Let's just look at records as being a part of an era. Barry Bonds: Most Home Runs Season (Juiced Up Super Freaks Era) 73 Roger Marris: Most Home Runs Season (Yankees At the End of Their Big Run Era) 61 There you go.

posted by ?! at 10:24 PM on March 07, 2006

well Greg, it sounds good, but if you'll join us in reality. Unless BB is an optometrist then his testimony on his eyesight is an opinion. Not A FACT. Unless you have testimony from an optometrist, who examined BB prior to him taking roids and while he was on steroids stating there was an increase in his vision, then you don't actually have proof his eyesight was better.

posted by tlach at 10:34 PM on March 07, 2006

I'll never forget arguing with a guy named grum@work on this site who was supporting bonds and his steriod case to me, I love being vindicated, Hey, still here! I wasn't the one that disappeared for 5 months after making this statement on September 23rd: hate to say i told ya so to everyone in sportsfilter, but i've been saying all year that the indians are one of the best, and most well rounded teams in baseball. And like i said the twins and whitesox were way overrated I mean, you didn't comment again until the first week of March. It's almost like, I don't know, you were embarrassed to be so wrong. I'm glad you are back however, and have decided to use capitalization in your sentences this time. But as for being "vindicated", I'm not sure where you get that from. You spouted some nonsense about Bonds and steroids and his stats, I ripped apart your arguments with facts and figures, and then you slinked away. However, if you get some great joy out of thinking you are a better man for what happened today, go ahead and enjoy it. Far be it for me to crush little dreams like that.

posted by grum@work at 11:11 PM on March 07, 2006

This is nothing new...we knew he was on roids.. I mean, what the guy has in his veins could pass for toxic waste. I'm not sorry at all for being so blut..this guy is a cheater in my book, just like sammy and prolly big mac too. MLB got lucky that only some "minor" stars (canseco,palmoro) got caught to take the heat for all the superstars. I used to look down on canseco for blowing the whistle but now I see that he really did know what was going on and was not gonna go down as the only scape-goat for Bud and the boys. When you look at the record books years from now and you see Barry Bonds name...look for bunches of these *************************

posted by Warminzu at 11:41 PM on March 07, 2006

The allegations against Bonds amount to more than innuedo. They're a significant part of a grand jury investigation that has resulted in plea bargains for two people (Victor Conte and Greg Anderson) and ongoing criminal cases against two others. Are the prosecutors going after these cases a bunch of Barry haters? rcade -- while I haven't seen anything to suggest that the prosecutors going after these cases are a bunch of Barry haters, there is at least some evidence (see some references here, for example) that suggests that the initial investigation of Bonds was at least in part motivated by some animus towards Bonds. I know that doesn't go at all to the merit of the allegations, but it does suggest that others' views of Bonds may have contributed to the fact that there was an investigation in the first place. There's also a good case to be made that the entire Balco matter is a colossal waste of government resources and taxpayer money, but that's neither here nor there for purposes of this discussion.

posted by holden at 11:55 PM on March 07, 2006

And as for vindication, all I have to say is hell yes grum....For the thousand people I have argued about the topic of bonds substance abuse, all I have to do anymore is just point to the facts coming out in this book grum. At least Im not giving up on my tribe like it appears you might be on your hero barry bonds. You better write it down guys I said the Indians are winning the central on March 7th, so you can bring it up later for me, lol, I could care less, if I say it, I mean it. By the way justgary in my post I was pointing out my correct prediction about the twins, and Indians who still had a great 93 win season, the most by any non-playoff team, and more than many teams in the playoffs. And my incorrect one about the white sox..that being said, 2 outta 3 aint bad gary.....

posted by gregy606 at 12:24 AM on March 08, 2006

as for your weak arguements about bonds being falsely accused, they are what look foolish now I believe, and deep down you now know as well......PERIOD Well, again, I see that you decide to go off topic to try and win an argument. If you'd actually read the discussions I participated in about Barry Bonds and steroids use, you'll notice that I didn't say that he was falsely accused. What I did say was that people making the accusations were basing it on information ("He's got a big head!") and statistics ("Look at the HR spike!") that were either weak or lacking in foundation. Of course, you never actually stated any point in the discussion other than "I'm right! You're wrong!", so I guess you can take any of the discussions where I dissected your arguments like a surgeon performing an autopsy as "victories", but I'm pretty sure those that were reading at the time have a pretty good idea how things were. And wasting your life here while baseball season isn't even around...just one sports season for me grum I'm pretty sure the baseball season didn't end on September 23rd. For example, your favourite team the Indians played a whole bunch of games after that date and went 2-6, including losing 3 games against the White Sox to end the season. Of course, you can't claim a "victory" at that point, so why bother hanging around, right? CLEVELAND INDIANS 2006 CENTRAL DIVISION CHAMPIONS I hope so. I've got a couple of Cleveland players on my fantasy baseball team and I'd like to see them do well this year. All I want to know grum, do you still think its a lie after all this....?? What is a lie? That Bonds used P.E.D.? Sweet fancy moses, do you ever actually read what other people say, or is "winning" your arguments so important that you ignore anything that might tarnish that ideal? I've stated numerous times that I believe that Bonds used some sort of P.E.D. in the off-season between 2000 and 2001 (and possible during the 2001 season). I said I believed he took them to help recover quicker from his injuries the previous season. What I've always argued against were the uninformed proclamations that people make about his steroid/P.E.D. use based on ill-conceived logic. If you STILL can't figure that out by now, there really is no hope for this discussion. It's funny you decided not to highlight the fact that I did predict the fact that the Twins were overrated grum. It's not "funny", it just wasn't something that I felt contributed to the point I was trying to make. I chose to use some editorial licence and highlight the information I wanted to stand out. Today I still feel the same way about that post as the day I made it, you can take it out of context any way you want. I didn't take it out of context. That was all that you said in that comment, so what else can I do? I thought it was interesting since you were obviously enjoying the "I told you so" moment, but when things suddenly took a turn for the worse for your beloved Indians, you disappeared for a long time. I've been wrong about a lot of things on SportsFilter (I have a "Costanza" award for my ineptitude during the NFL playoffs and I picked against the White Sox in every single round of the playoff (which, by the way, are part of baseball and lasted many days after September 23rd)), and I have no problem admitting to it. So if you are trying to "shame" me or something, you're just wasting your time. I have absolutely no regrets for anything I've posted on this site. Well, except for my comments about the Estrada/Erstad home plate collision. I'm willing to admit that I was a little stubborn about my point of view and probably should have conceded I was wrong.

posted by grum@work at 12:26 AM on March 08, 2006

How come when Mark McGwire cheated, it was a "dietary supplement" and people were ready to over look it. Two reasons: 1) It was a dietary supplement, and not actually a steroid. It was a BANNED supplement, according to the Olympics, but not according to baseball. 2) It wasn't hidden, and he didn't try to hide it or cover it up when it was discovered. I mean, it was sitting on his shelf in his locker where a reporter was able to spot it. As a side note, McGwire DID get a lot of heat for the supplement, but it got buried in the feel-good story of the home run race. I don't know if race really had anything to do with it (since McGwire is getting villified nowadays), but his relationship to the media at the time (compared to Bonds) definitely does make a difference. Since there have been sports reporters, players that have worked with the media (or been well liked) have had their troubles swept under the rug (Mantle). Players that didn't get along with the media had their problems exposed under the harshest of light (Dick Allen).

posted by grum@work at 12:36 AM on March 08, 2006

Furthermore thanks for answering me, I hope you read that book thats coming out so you can get a grip on the reality of bonds' situation grum. I'll be passing on the book. One-sided sports exposés (whether they are pro-athlete or blast the subject) don't really fit into my reading material. Besides, I don't really care about all the supposed details of the drug use. The summarized information in the SI article should be fine for me. Anyways, I already have a "grip" on the Bond's situation. Why you keep thinking I don't is kind of troubling to me. Is it a sign of a lack of respect for me, or simply projecting your own feelings about the subject on to me? Besides, I'm only halfway through my current book and I've got another one lined up for later reading. Hopefully I don't finish them before I get on the plane for my vacation next week. I hate having to buy books in the airport. Yeah but he's a cancer survivor and the French just hate him anyway... Comment icon posted by JohnSFO at 12:48 PM CST on March 7 I just want to give my hearty congrats to JohnSFO for this comment. I must have missed it before when I was reading this thread, but I have to acknowledge how wonderfully sly it is. Bravo!

posted by grum@work at 12:50 AM on March 08, 2006

For the record, I wrote in a August 1, 2005 SF thread the following: Despite being a lifelong Giants fan, I have no choice but to believe Barry Bonds was juiced at least during his record-breaking 2000 season, but not before. It is my unfounded, speculative belief that Bonds, after watching McGwire and Sosa get all the attention in 1998, said "OK, if they're gonna cheat, I can cheat even better because I'm a better hitter than both of them." Reporters Fainuru-Wada and Williams said essentially the same thing about Bonds' motive for turning to the juice in their interview with Tom Verducci of SI.com (Verducci scored the pre-death interview in which Ken Caminiti admitted juicing). Although I believe Bonds and others are guilty of steroid use, I believe that many more people knew than will ever admit it; from Bud Selig to Don Fehr to Tony LaRussa to Dusty Baker to George Steinbrenner to...heck, to Bob Uecker, and everybody was just so relieved that after it nearly collapsed on itself in the '90s, people were feeling good about baseball again (and, more importantly, watching it). Nobody wanted to be the one to step into the circle and wring the neck of the proverbial golden goose. The goose is now dead, and we are better for it. You must admit that it is a good thing that future generations will -- hopefully -- reject the notion that an athlete must have chemical assistance to become an MVP. Whodunit? It didn't begin with Jose Canseco; all he had was innuendo and inconsistent, dubious stories (not to say they were all lies). So how did it happen? Three words: George Walker Bush. The baseball-fan-and-former-owner-in-chief, either on his own or on the word of his advisors noting the potential explosion of the ongoing yet subterranean BALCO investigation, made stamping out steroid use in the name of preventing children from becoming abusers a momentary topic in his State of the Union address in 2004. Apparently, unlike many Presidential promises, Bush made good on this one, going after BALCO with the vigor one would associate with a greater threat to the general public. Perhaps we could call it "The War on Ster-ror." Regarding Fainaru-Wada (what the heck kinda name is that?) and Williams; they've been heralded as ace reporters and thorough investigative journalists. I know that this story didn't write itself, but I'm with bdaddy in the sense that this story would have been impossible without their access to information they weren't legally allowed to see. I agree that the book, judging from the publicity surrounding the SI excerpt, seems like an assassin-worthy hit job on Bonds (Williams: "[Bonds'] ex-girlfriend reported...sexual mysfunction") more than a comprehensive, objective work about the issues raised by the BALCO investigation, which was the rationale when the reporting duo bylined the Chron story of the leaked testimony of Jason Giambi. And as long as we're all focusing our lenses on Bonds to eke some sort of admission of guilt out of him, I say lets put a mirror in front of F-Wada and Williams and ask about the propriety of using illegally "obtained" grand jury testimony and secret recordings. If Bonds isn't squeaky clean, neither are they.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 04:17 AM on March 08, 2006

steriods and betting you cant change the numbers but you can keep him out of Hall of Fame like they did to Pete

posted by Ohio,Ger at 06:43 AM on March 08, 2006

If anyone thinks that it was just a few guys on 'Roids - Raffy, Bonds, three or four more - I think you're clearly on something yourself. The Steroid story in MLB isn't that a couple guys juiced and broke some records - the story is that a few people started experimenting years ago (probably in the 80s), it remained very underground for quite a while, and then someone was looking for a magic bullet to re-start things after the disastrous 94 strike and a down 95 season. After that point, say 96 or 97, steroids started to be widely used among hitters. Eventually it will come out - we're talking 10% or more of hitters in MLB on the juice at its peak. The difference is that not everyone was maniacal about it like Bonds seems to have been - though it definitely should be noted that Bonds may very well have let the initial Steroid push happen around him - and then got religion when he saw guys he considered inferior to him as players (and clearly they were) breaking the biggest records in the game.

posted by mikelbyl at 07:42 AM on March 08, 2006

mikelbyl: after the last season of "no-punishment" drug testing in MLB (2003), they announced that 5-7% of tests had been positive. I suspect that your 10% number is probably about right, cheaters' estimates to the contrary notwithstanding. And IMO 10% is not indicative of a major, game-altering problem in baseball. Just another example of cheating in sports; no more, no less.

posted by Amateur at 08:07 AM on March 08, 2006

Amateur, that's where we disagree. I think 10% is a huge scandal, the biggest scandal in the history of the game after the Black Sox. I think it totally changed the game in ways that we're only starting to understand now.

posted by mikelbyl at 08:20 AM on March 08, 2006

I'm 100% with Amateur on this. This giant wagon is fodder for columns; the impact is on our impression of the players, not the game itself. Grum's "Willie Mays" link is well worth a read for everyone who is complaining about cheating. Gene Wojecneiskiowski's (close enough) column yesterday on ESPN.com is a prime example of the total bullshit harping that makes this an impossible debate to have. Talk about just rolling with the hype.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:02 AM on March 08, 2006

One more thing weedy, I guess you've smoked to much b/c I capitalized the fact that these were my OPINIONS, we'll just chalk this up to failure to recognize, or be able to read, because you blither on about how this is just my opinion, while i've already made that plain and simple for MOST of us to see. But again I really am looking forward to a challenge, hopefully not from a bunch of loser pothead children though...

posted by gregy606 at 09:26 AM on March 08, 2006

>>>I expect nothing but rational discourse and intelligent discussion in this thread. Your crystal ball, she's accurate. >>>that asshole lamp in the corner LOL. I know that lamp!

posted by JohnSFO at 10:33 AM on March 08, 2006

Today's article in the San Francisco Chronicle has charts of Bond's top six seasons for home runs, post-1998 power surge, five best seasons, historical rankings, old-vs.-young stats, and home runs after age 35. The Chronicle reporters wrote nearly 100 stories on the BALCO investigation. If the single-season home run record was broken on the juice Which time? McGwire was juiced on Andro. Bonds was juiced on steroids. What's the difference? (There isn't one, to me, between two performance-enhancing substances that give you an edge.)

posted by kirkaracha at 11:56 AM on March 08, 2006

Bonds reeling, Selig silent after Shadows' revelations

posted by justgary at 12:23 PM on March 08, 2006

The guy is a debate machine, no joke. He made 1st team all-Ohio. Understand this says more about remedial education in Ohio than it does about what will happen in Our Courtroom.

posted by yerfatma at 12:41 PM on March 08, 2006

ESPN POLL 1) Are you going to read Game of Shadows? 62.6% No 37.4% Yes 2) Do you believe the media attention generated from this book will have an effect on Bonds this season? 45.7% Yes, and he will not break the record 27.7% Yes, but he will still break the record 26.6% No effect 3) Does the news of what is in the book make you believe Bonds used steroids? 83.6% I already thought he was a user 10.2% No 4.3% I believe now 1.9% I want to read the book first 4) What did you make of Bonds dressing up as Paula Abdul during an American Idol skit at spring training? 68.8% He was trying to gain favor from fans and the media 31.2% He was showing a true, lighter side of his personality 5) What would you most like to see this season? 73.2% Bonds gets fed up with the media and retires 15.0% Bonds has a great season, breaks Aaron's record 11.8% Bonds has a good season, just misses record 6) What do you believe about Bonds? 86.1% He knowingly used steroids 9.7% I'm not sure what to believe 4.2% He unknowingly used steroids 7) Who do you consider baseball's single-season home run leader? 64.0% Roger Maris (61 in 1961) 22.0% Barry Bonds (73 in 2001) 7.4% Mark McGwire (70 in 1998) 5.2% Babe Ruth (60 in 1927) 1.4% Sammy Sosa (66 in 1998) 8) Does Bonds belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame? 63.0% No 37.0% Yes Total Votes: 10,260

posted by rxreed at 12:52 PM on March 08, 2006

irunfromclones, so I don't risk putting words in your mouth: what are you trying to say?

posted by Amateur at 01:30 PM on March 08, 2006

Amateur: IIRC Conte got four months in prison, plus four months house arrest. Real "tough on crime," that. Bush in the 2004 SOTU Address: To help children make right choices, they need good examples. Athletics play such an important role in our society, but, unfortunately, some in professional sports are not setting much of an example. The use of performance-enhancing drugs like steroids in baseball, football, and other sports is dangerous, and it sends the wrong message -- that there are shortcuts to accomplishment, and that performance is more important than character. So tonight I call on team owners, union representatives, coaches, and players to take the lead, to send the right signal, to get tough, and to get rid of steroids now. It's hard to argue that what the President said has not been greatly accomplished, with the assistance of Congressional hearings and pressure from figures like Sen. John McCain. Only the Congressional hearings were able to make both Fehr and Selig admit there was a problem serious enough to remedy with more than a fig-leaf policy that didn't demand forceful action. Left to their own devices, baseball doping would have continued to be an open secret.

posted by L.N. Smithee at 01:32 PM on March 08, 2006

Bonds' stats. 1998: 156 games, .303 BA, 37 home runs, one every 14.9 at-bats. 1999: 102 games, .262 BA, 34 home runs, one every 10.4 at-bats. 2000: The Giants start playing home games at Pac Bell Park, which is specificially designed for Bonds to hit home runs. 2000: 143 games, .306 BA, 49 home runs, one every 9.8 at-bats. 2001: 153 games, .328 BA, 73 home runs, one every 6.5 at-bats. 2002: 143 games, .370 BA, 46 home runs, one every 8.8 at-bats. 2003: 130 games, .341 BA, 45 home runs, one every 8.7 at-bats. 2004: 147 games, .362 BA, 45 home runs, one every 8.3 at-bats. He played in 144 games in 1995, 158 games in 1996, and 159 games in 1997, so taking steroids didn't increase his playing time. Before 1998 he hit .301 or better four times, and .262 or better four times (plus .261 one season). His at-bats per home run dropped during the steroid years, but it wasn't the first time he'd done that. If you look at his at-bats per home run, he hit home runs more often during 1992-1998 than he had during 1986-1991

posted by kirkaracha at 02:01 PM on March 08, 2006

I just deleted a ton of gregy606-related comments. Please ignore him try to stay somewhat on topic. Yay for kirkaracha!!!!!! Do I think Bonds did steroids. Yes. However, I still think that Bonds is an amazing hitter and even without steroids would post 40+ homer seasons every year. I think a big problem for Bonds is that he went from 49 homers to 73 and then back down to 46. Another problem is that Barry is an asshole, which is why the media focuses on him. Sammy Sosa also had a funny jump in production, but you don't see anyone bitching about him. I think that Barry is a victim of circumstance here.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:01 PM on March 08, 2006

To cmsickman and solrac, guys, seriously, head press machine? Obviously you guys did not get my attempt at humor. I know his skull got bigger due to steroid use. Open your minds, breathe. Feel better? Beautiful. Sorry to get your blood pressure up with my feeble attempt at being funny.

posted by Desert Dog at 03:19 PM on March 08, 2006

Pardon me, the word is tenuous, proofreaders. And so is my ability to spell it.

posted by mjkredliner at 04:41 PM on March 08, 2006

I think they could take Bonds' records away like the Bronx Little League baseball team and Danny Almonte.

posted by nort_12345 at 07:49 PM on March 08, 2006

It's amazing how we (as a society) always joked about steroids in MLB and knew they were a huge part of the game. But now I am seeing that in the face of documented corroboration, the chairs are being pushed away from the table and everyone is taking sides. Bonds is going down, and all of MLB will be taking a hit because it happened as they were counting the receipts. And I mean greenies, red bull, speed, whatever. It's all fair game now. The second I got my mail today, I sat down on my couch and plowed through that story. Then I went on Amazon and pre-ordered the book. (Then I realized if I ordered another book to put me over $25, I would get free shipping. Damn you Amazon!!! You have made way too much money off me with that ploy). This thing reads like a well researched crime novel. My open question is this: it sounds like he was using undocumented cash from memorabilia shows to finance his girlfriend. At the least, I wouldn't be surprised to see him brought down Capone style by the IRS.

posted by usfbull at 09:37 PM on March 08, 2006

Do you have a source for this (he asked honestly)? It is true, but a bit of a red herring. Smoking pot didn't kill Darryl Kile. To imply such is just asinine.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:21 AM on March 09, 2006

What do commercials know? Our bus driver snorted coke and the only thing that happened was we always got to school early.

posted by yerfatma at 09:40 AM on March 09, 2006

The connection between Kile's pot smoking and his death is on the Jump To Conclusions board. Smithee only connected pot to Kile, not to Kile's death... although, I have to say, that on first read I made the same inference. Oh... and I saw on a t-shirt that smoking pot makes you root for the Mets.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:12 PM on March 09, 2006

If you aren't a Bonds hater, I think the best way to illustrate that is to acknowledge that there is plenty of blame to go around. I had plenty to say about McGwire, Sosa, Canseco, and the others long before I knew this forum existed. Even though this thread is about Bond's steroid abuse, I agree that any discussion of cheating or enhancements in MLB must include his contempories. It's a safe bet McGuire's sudden retirement was to avoid the media firestorm that would have followed his stunning decline in production during subsequent seasons without his "natural" supplements. Sosa wasn't as smart, and now can only retire in shame or shamelessly play for a league minimum on the weakest team in the league. Canseco, Giambi, the list goes on and on. Every one of them from Bonds on down should be stripped of their stats and records and banned from the Hall. And don't stop at the players. These clubs, the managers, and the executives all knew what was going on. The league should have NCAA type violations where teams forfeit draft or minor league players or lose a percentage of the TV and radio revenue- anything to get their attention. Better yet, have Congress strip MLB of it's monopoly status and let Congress legislate baseball.

posted by irunfromclones at 03:47 PM on March 09, 2006

It's a safe bet McGuire's sudden retirement was to avoid the media firestorm that would have followed his stunning decline in production during subsequent seasons without his "natural" supplements. No, it was probably from the debilitating leg injury he sufferred through in the final two years of his career. Now, if you want to say "He's injured because of the steroids!", that's a whole other ball of wax.

posted by grum@work at 04:58 PM on March 09, 2006

Bonus fact: to indicate possesion by someone whose name ends in ess, the apostrophe goes after said ess (e.g., Bonds'). An additional ess is a stylistic issue beyond the concern of this piece.

posted by yerfatma at 05:46 PM on March 09, 2006

I decided to ask my dad about what he thought about Bonds and he gave me possibly the best analogy I've heard. "Maybe he got ripped just by lifting weights, but its doubtful seeing as you can't lift weights with your face."

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:18 PM on March 10, 2006

For the record, it is spelled "M-c-G-w-i-r-e." Can we get that right?

posted by usfbull at 11:23 PM on March 10, 2006