11/05/24
October 27, 2005
2 Eagles players condemed because they love the Lord: Tra Thomas comes in to a public school talking 'bout Jebus and says he ain't preaching! How does he sleep at night?
"I'm just trying to get them to identify with me, the person, rather than just Tra Thomas, the football player, so we can relate to each other better," [Tra Thomas] said. Yeah, because everyone knows about Tra Thomas, the football player.
posted by cl at 02:05 PM on October 27, 2005
Oops, the guy is a Pro Bowler.
posted by cl at 02:11 PM on October 27, 2005
And he's had zero fumbles in his NFL career. Give the guy a break.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 02:13 PM on October 27, 2005
What's up for tomorrow, abortion? You asked for it, Doc.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:34 PM on October 27, 2005
Why can't a professional football player profess his love for the Lord. If freedom works one way to get school prayer out of schools and trying to get the pledge out of schools why can't someone who is someone kids may look up to stand out and profess his faith. I think that these 2 players ought to be congratulated not condemed!
posted by hogfan1013 at 02:35 PM on October 27, 2005
Wow, Black Hand, that's twisted!
posted by willthrill72 at 02:40 PM on October 27, 2005
Mr. Hand that is seriously fucked up.
posted by HATER 187 at 02:49 PM on October 27, 2005
How does he sleep at night? On top of a pile of money, with many beautiful ladies...
posted by bcb2k2 at 03:00 PM on October 27, 2005
Well said- lmao
posted by redsoxrgay at 03:09 PM on October 27, 2005
LMAO I like that one BCB!!!
posted by Big Dookie at 03:13 PM on October 27, 2005
I am glad someone is talking "Jesus" to today's kids. Especially notable athletes that kids look up to in today's society.
posted by peaceout at 03:14 PM on October 27, 2005
Because no one ever heard of Jesus or the Bible in today's society before...even though you can't take a piss without hitting a Christian with the stream in the U.S.
posted by chris2sy at 03:29 PM on October 27, 2005
I understand the seperation of church and state, however working with youth of today, we need all the support and help we can get. A good percentage of kids today need positive role models.
posted by Richard j Garcia at 03:37 PM on October 27, 2005
A good percentage of kids today need positive role models. That's why I started my internship program. One kid a day can follow me around and bask in my positive role-model-ness, as long as he or she keeps my martini pitcher full and my laudanum pipe stoked.
posted by cobra! at 03:41 PM on October 27, 2005
Hopefully no one would join that internship program.
posted by stick at 03:46 PM on October 27, 2005
even though you can't take a piss without hitting a Christian with the stream in the U.S. Incredibly I manage to accomplish this every day.
posted by tron7 at 03:49 PM on October 27, 2005
A good percentage of kids today need positive role models. How 'bout parents or other family members. Why must kids model themselves after total strangers of whom they know absolutely nothing about other than they can hit a 18' jumper or rush for 100 yards/game?
posted by willthrill72 at 03:50 PM on October 27, 2005
Does believing in jesus make you a positive role model, does being a football player? Why does this guy have to be a role model, why should he get to spread his christian rhetoric (they should add spell check) in a PUBLIC school? If Mr. Thomas is so concerned with "values, choices and challenges that adolescents face in today's society" why doesn't he keep it secular and allow it to reach more people.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:53 PM on October 27, 2005
yeah, and allow schools to keep getting worse just as they have been the more God is taken out of them
posted by stick at 03:56 PM on October 27, 2005
And we all know belief in God makes you a better person and a true role model. Look no further than the Catholic Church for proof. Why is it so Goddamned hard for you Christians to realize that not everybody wants to be preached to? If people want you to preach to them, they'll come find you. Otherwise, stop knocking on my front door, stop breaking the law of the land by preaching in public schools, and leave everybody the hell alone! Once the rapture comes, you'll all have the last word, and that should be enough.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:58 PM on October 27, 2005
It is one thing to criticize the lecture since it was a religious lecture in a public school, but it is a whole other thing to criticize what the man is trying to do. There is nothing wrong with letting these kids know that his religion gave him the strength to make a better life for himself and his family. And, yes, working hard and becoming a professional football player and keeping it clean is more than enough to be a role model. He should just make sure that it is a willing audience in the proper locale.
posted by bperk at 04:01 PM on October 27, 2005
I agree with you, but I don't see using Jesus as an example of values as cramming it down kids throats or being preached to.
posted by stick at 04:01 PM on October 27, 2005
And another thing: nobody "condemned" the two players for "loving the Lord." At least, not in that article. All that happened was that the school had no idea that the players were going to evangelize in a public school. If they had known that, Thomas and Tapeh probably would not have been invited to speak. To say they were "condemned" because of their religious beliefs is misleading, at best. Although, for Hater's benefit, I'm looking at it through sarcasm-colored glasses.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:04 PM on October 27, 2005
HEY BLACK HAND...SINCE YOU ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT "THE LAW OF THE LAND" WHY DON'T YOU SEND ME ALL YOUR DOLLAR BILLS...OR AT LEAST THE ONES THAT SAY "IN GOD WE TRUST" ON THE BACK.
posted by tselson at 04:06 PM on October 27, 2005
Your lack of shift key ability leads me to believe that "intelligent design" might not be all it's cracked up to be.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:14 PM on October 27, 2005
if he was jewish, muslim, hindu, wicken or any other religion no one would dare say anything. why the assault on christianity which is the professed religion of 80% of this country? im not saying it should be force down anyones throat, but a person who professes their faith in any religion should be tolorated and respected as much as a person who is gay, or has had an abortion, or any other charecteristic, or belief that 1/2 of the world wants to condemn. for God's sake people come together!
posted by elijahin24 at 04:15 PM on October 27, 2005
WHY DON'T YOU SEND ME ALL YOUR DOLLAR BILLS...OR AT LEAST THE ONES THAT SAY "IN GOD WE TRUST" ON THE BACK. Is that why religious institutions like money so much, here I just they were greedy.
posted by HATER 187 at 04:18 PM on October 27, 2005
Actually, tselson was an intern of mine, briefly; had to kick the little shaver out of the program for bogarting the laudanum. He's been no good with capitals or punctuation ever since. Damn shame.
posted by cobra! at 04:21 PM on October 27, 2005
Regardless of what religion is being preached it does not belong in public schools. The non-christians have the right not to be preached to, don't they? Leave the preaching to the pulpit. At least when a person goes to church or temple or mosque, they expect to be preached to, not at school.
posted by willthrill72 at 04:21 PM on October 27, 2005
I agree with you, but I don't see using Jesus as an example of values as cramming it down kids throats or being preached to. It is if the kids don't believe or believe differently.
posted by willthrill72 at 04:23 PM on October 27, 2005
elijahin24 I personally don't agree with you I would have just as much of a problem with any of those groups spreading there "message" especially in a public school assembly. You wanna teach your kids about the big invisble man in the sky fine, iwould never go up to your kids and "the whole jesus thing, crock of shit". You want your kids to learn about religion in school suck it up and pay for a private school. If you can't afford it then shouldn't you question your admission in a group that would with hold the "word" for something as mundane as cash?
posted by HATER 187 at 04:26 PM on October 27, 2005
well said, Hater
posted by willthrill72 at 04:28 PM on October 27, 2005
Wow, let me get this straight... We are talking about Sports, right?
posted by bugsyduke at 04:41 PM on October 27, 2005
fair point hater but these guys aren't employees of the school. should they have said what they said: no. but i don't think they need to be (pardon the pun) crusified for it either. we do have free speech in this country. but to really have it means to allow people to say even the things that make your blood boil.
posted by elijahin24 at 04:41 PM on October 27, 2005
Hey tselson, That "In God We Trust", that you see on our money, was placed there by Deists, not Christians. Go read a book or two about the founding of our country and you'll see what I mean....and learn to turn off the damned Caps Lock newb :-) Sorry for the off-topic post!
posted by slackerman at 04:44 PM on October 27, 2005
enough with the "in god we trust" talk. its there. its gonna be there. and frankly i dont have enough copys of that quote in my wallet. but does it really inspire or hurt anything. its an argument for people who feel the need to argue. nothing more
posted by elijahin24 at 04:48 PM on October 27, 2005
Free speech does not extend to speech that has been prohibited by law. If religious speech is prohibited by law in public schools, then you're not allowed to do it. Period. No matter what you believe in. If somebody spoke to a public school assembly promoting atheism or agnostic thought, I wouldn't support that either. There are appropriate places for religious discussions, but public schools are not on the list. Places that are on the list: churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, SportsFilter.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:50 PM on October 27, 2005
Hey Black-Hand, Once the Rapture does happen you'll wish you were part of it. I also agree with elijahin24. The principle would not have sent out any letter to apologize if they were not "Christians".
posted by Rod4God at 04:51 PM on October 27, 2005
I am not asking for these guy's heads on a platter but maybe to think but for you say things. I am not offended by religious discussions (as indicated by choice of post) but everything in its place. Religion is a personal choice and should be treated as such. I guess what I was getting at was this guy was over stepping his boundry. Morals can be taugh with out divine intervention. There are socially accepted codes of conduct we should up hold as human beings regardless of of our diffrences. I do appreciate what Mr. Thomas is doing, his intentions are good, I think he made a bad judgement call by using a public school assembly to evangelicize ( i am the worst speller ever) I will put my soap box away now thanks for listening.
posted by HATER 187 at 04:53 PM on October 27, 2005
p.s. slackerman awesome job on the deist thing, lots of christians today would be shocked by the founding fathers believes.
posted by HATER 187 at 04:55 PM on October 27, 2005
Well said Hater 187. The only other thing I'll say is that the school new they were coming for 2 weeks. You would think that would have been time enough for them to check out his web site and do some checking into what his Org. was about.
posted by Rod4God at 04:58 PM on October 27, 2005
I'm an atheist and the only thing I hate more than apostolic Christians are other atheists. Religion was not being promoted by the state so this does not break any separation laws.
posted by mick at 05:16 PM on October 27, 2005
Thomas was not the one in the wrong here. It was the school. There is no law against religious speech in school. There are limits to the extent which religion in public schools is allowed. It is not Thomas who is responsible for knowing and enforcing those limits -- it is the school.
posted by bperk at 05:21 PM on October 27, 2005
Is that why religious institutions like money so much, here I just they were greedy. If you actually had a "thought" you forgot it.
posted by sumokenobi at 05:26 PM on October 27, 2005
Though many of the "founding fathers" were deists, they did not come up with the In God We Trust motto. The use of the motto actually arose during the Civil War, and it did not become the national motto until the McCarthy era. Just FYI.
posted by graymatters at 05:33 PM on October 27, 2005
hater, also keep in mind most religious institutions want their members to spread the word. if they believe in what they do, how can they not talk to people outside of their church, synogog, etc. you dont go to busch stadium to recruit new baseball fans. everyone there already likes baseball. it is the same with religion.
posted by elijahin24 at 05:34 PM on October 27, 2005
though they shouldnt have done it in a public school
posted by elijahin24 at 05:35 PM on October 27, 2005
Why can't a professional football player profess his love for the Lord This is how sick humanity has become. they are trying to make actual "laws" that give certain people the "right" to announce to the entire damn planet WHO THEY WANT TO MARRY AND HAVE SEX WITH, be it gay,lesbian or whatever.they also have laws that state any organization can gather at the town hall to yell over loud speakers why its important to hate "niggers,jews,mud races(as they are called)race traitors(thats what i'm considered since my wife is Black), and anyone else that is non-white". But you cannot discuss God with out pissing people off.How fucking ass backwards have we as people become? let us not forget that this is the same God that our Forefathers founded this great nation on(regardless of where the "In God We Trust" saying came from). The men who made this country what it is would be disgusted by how this nation has unfolded morally. if you dont like what someone is saying(regardless the topic)get the fuck up and walk away.Dont want your kids to hear? keep them the fuck home.Dont sit there and fucking complain for the rest of us.You'd be doing exactly what your complaining about. thats like saying,"you cant preach about that(topic) but i am allowed to fucking cry as loud as i want to about why(in my opinion) you cant. If you feel so strongly about something, go get a damn picket sign and stand out front of the damn event and cry all you want to.But dont try to stop the person all together from saying what they believe. Did you ever think for a minute that there may actually be someone that wants to hear what they are saying?If tra thomas helped 1 damn kid, then thats a good thing.How fucking hard is that to understand. Ms. swoopes told the world she prefers to eat pussy. how many school girls do you think heard her announcment? 100,000 times as many heard what tra thomas said about "faith and hope". Dont you fucking get it? Theres no moral balance for children anymore. My point is would anyone have the fucking balls to say anything about this guy giving this lecture if,the day before 20 kids got shot at the school,or the day before a plane crashed into the school and 500 children died?Why is Christian compassion only accepted after a tragedy? Ms. swoopes gets cheered(and becomes an instant role model for young girls all over the world.maybe some of your daugters) as a fucking hero JUST because she admits she likes to lick pussy? And Tra Thomas gets condemned because he admits his religion gave him strength and hope at a public school? to paraphrase my favorite scripture. The weeds and the crops will grow together,and there is nothing that anyone can do about it. However the day WILL come when I thrust in My sickle for the great harvest, and woe unto the inhabitors of the earth who are not prepared to meet the Lord. There are 2 types of human beings on this planet, weeds and crops. And its not for anyone to judge who is which rather ask yourself, WHICH ARE YOU?
posted by RZA at 06:08 PM on October 27, 2005
I didn't see anything about preaching..only promoting a christian concert. Is talking about Jesus really that bad? I mean, kids are constantly being bombarded with images of football drug addicts, and the whole Viking cruise ship incident, etc. And we complain and nitpick about this.
posted by sangu at 06:14 PM on October 27, 2005
Once the Rapture does happen you'll wish you were part of it. No I won't. I'll be driving your car. And since I'll be going to hell, might as well have sex with your family while I'm at it. The men who made this country what it is would be disgusted by how this nation has unfolded morally Y'know, it'd be one thing to say this in most threads, but right above your comment is a link to Deism. The Founding Fathers you speak of were Deists; "God as watchmaker" was their philosophy, a being who made the world and left it to tick away as it saw fit. Other than that, rant away. You put us well past the over on False Dilemmas in this thread and I had it pegged at 42.5.
posted by yerfatma at 06:17 PM on October 27, 2005
There are 2 types of human beings on this planet, weeds and crops. And its not for anyone to judge who is which rather ask yourself, WHICH ARE YOU? Since when is weed not a crop? I think I have some pruning to do. And we all know belief in God makes you a better person and a true role model. Look no further than the Catholic Church for proof. Pass the Guiness please.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 06:17 PM on October 27, 2005
Ms. swoopes gets cheered(and becomes an instant role model for young girls all over the world.maybe some of your daugters) as a fucking hero JUST because she admits she likes to lick pussy? I'm sure your God is proud of you right about now.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 06:31 PM on October 27, 2005
i say way to go tra!!!!
posted by biohazrd18 at 06:31 PM on October 27, 2005
He should have let them know what he was going to be promoting so the school could make a judgement call on whether to allow it or not. If he did not disclose the info it makes him look like he was trying to hide it. If he is so proud of what he is doing why didn't he disclose his true intentions. Let the students know what is going on and give them the option of having something else to do instead of going to the assembly. Or get permission slips signed by parents which is what we at our public schools have to do when they talk about anything from sex to drugs. That way the parents and kids can make a decision on whether the kids attend the assembly or not.
posted by skydivemom at 06:54 PM on October 27, 2005
It Is interesting how volitle people get on both sides of the subject of God. It must stirr something deep inside each of us as we conjure up some picture/immage of a powerful being we may ultimately be responsible to. These men have the right to let kids know what makes them tic as well as Mr. Ali did on national television concerning Mohammad (hope I spelled it correctly). Tis is America where the right to free speach is inclusive for all. If these players say God helps them be better, why not let them tell others that God is a viable option for human happiness? Once you believe in anything, aren't you compelled to declare it as truth? Let the parents who disagree with them explain to the children why they believe differently, just as other parents are destined to explain why they believe Darwin was an idiot.
posted by singincowboy at 07:35 PM on October 27, 2005
Actually, the spelling wasn't the best, but I'm finding myself siding with RZA. If your priorities in protecting and nuturing your children fall more in bitching about a one-time Christian message and less about video games where the object is to blow each other's heads off, I doubt I'm going to listen much to your carping. No, it shouldn't have happened at a public school, but for God's sake, don't treat it like Tra Thomas was teaching your kids to fuck in the streets.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:04 PM on October 27, 2005
singincowboy - you're right about one thing for sure: religious discussions are prone to be quite volatile. If you look at this thread, you'll likely notice two pretty well-defined sides. One side claims that their rights are being curtailed because they can't preach to people in certain settings, no matter what the law (or common politeness) says. The other side simply wants to be left alone, and to be able to send their kids to public school without fear that someone's going to pump them full of a belief system the parents might not agree with. You want to be a "fisher of men?" Feel free to get all the proper permits, and stand on the corner with the Nation of Islam guys selling newsletters and bean pies. Preach at the top of your lungs. Just leave the schools to educational pursuits, not religious ones. That was my only point. Not attacking Christians or any other religious group, just asking that you keep your beliefs away from me and my kids unless I ask you to minister to us. Rod4God - if missing the Rapture means I don't get to hang out with you for eternity, well, damn, I guess I'm screwed. RZA - God would like to speak to you about your choice of vocabulary when speaking on his behalf.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:11 PM on October 27, 2005
I'm new here but wanted to share my view on a couple of things in regards to the subject. I read somewhere above where someone stated that parents and family members should serve as role models and I agree with that 100% but in reality that is not always an option for some children. I would much rather these men/athletes be the type of people that my child would look to follow than some others, such as Ray Lewis or Rae Carruth for instance. At least these two men are rendering GOOD values and/or morals to our children and young adults. Another thing I want to address here is about the subject of Seperation of Church and State (in which someone also posted above about) ..and here are my views on that as well. “Separation of church and state” is a phrase well recognized by the citizens of this nation. Despite the fact that the phrase does not appear in the body of our Constitution or Bill or Rights, recent studies show that up to two-thirds of the people believe that it does. When the 1st Amendment was being considered, before the final wording, the framers of the Constitution made it clear that we would not have a “state religion” in America, a single “denomination” of Christianity selected, protected and promoted by the Federal government. This was the evil they had experienced with The Church of England before they immigrated to America, an evil they intended to avoid by the carefully selected wording of the 1st Amendment. The first Congress stressed the importance of Christianity to public education when in 1789 it passed the Northwest Ordinance requiring the Christian religion, morality, and knowledge to be taught in the schools, and other means of education, as required for statehood in the United States. Many of our Founding Fathers were working on the wording of the 1st Amendment at the time that the Northwest Ordinance was passed. In David Barton’s video, “Foundations of American Government” he tells about asking a congressman, who was also an accomplished attorney, why they could not have Bibles in the schools. The congressman told him it was because of “separation of church and state”. Barton handed him a copy of the Constitution and asked him to find it. When he read the 1st Amendment and couldn’t find it, the congressman’s face turned red and he told Barton that was what he was taught in law school. Barton asked him “You mean you have never read the Constitution?” The congressman responded “We were never required to read it. It is very possible all the lawyers and judges haven‘t read it.” Separation of church and state is in article 124 of the Soviet Union’s constitution. But we are not supposed to be under the soviet constitution.
posted by titiana at 08:50 PM on October 27, 2005
I'm not a christian, but I don't have any problem with football players 'speading the word' or whatever. The problem is where they tried to 'spread the word'. A public school has no business appearing to endorse a religious group. The onus here is on the school - they should have made themselves familiar with the presentation Tra and company planned to give. They f*cked up, and it sounds like they know it.
posted by JMoney at 10:23 PM on October 27, 2005
titiana, would you say the same thing if Thomas was otherwise the same except Hindu and bringing that 'good news' to the students?
posted by billsaysthis at 11:49 PM on October 27, 2005
RZA - God would like to speak to you about your choice of vocabulary when speaking on his behalf. His? What makes you so sure? She might not like her gender being assigned so haphazardly. :-)
posted by owlhouse at 05:39 AM on October 28, 2005
The most ironic part of this story is that the Principal's name was Emmanuel. However, how did the prinicpal not know what the discussion was about. THey had it on the screen the entire time. Finally, the vast majority of Americans are Christians, why should this offend anyone. Someday, someone is going to have to explain to me why the Christians don't step up and start arguing for our side. Kids need to hear about God. They get to hear about evolution, abortion, contraceptives, and every other twisted thing on the planet, why do we get so upset when they hear about God; who preaches nothing but good.
posted by mcstan13 at 07:22 AM on October 28, 2005
You know its interesting. It is assumed that the School Leaders are telling the truth that they were not told about the true nature of the assembly. Those Evil christians lied thier way into the school. I hate posts like this. Because some of you go way over-board to let people know as to how much you hate christain teaching. Free speech is one thing. Spouting garbage is down right hurtful....
posted by daddisamm at 08:02 AM on October 28, 2005
thanks for the post titina--it was nicely done.
posted by daddisamm at 08:04 AM on October 28, 2005
titiana, would you say the same thing if Thomas was otherwise the same except Hindu and bringing that 'good news' to the students? Stuff on other "cultures" is to be allowed and encouraged. After-all we are supposed to be one big happy family. One big global village!
posted by daddisamm at 08:07 AM on October 28, 2005
Kids need to hear about God. Not my kids, my choice as to what to teach them. They get to hear about evolution, abortion, contraceptives, and every other twisted thing on the planet This is a true sign of the problems of christianity it can't keep up with the times. why do we get so upset when they hear about God; who preaches nothing but good. Unless of course your gay Oh and RZA I'm gonna sow your asshole shut and keep feedin' ya and feedin' ya and feedin' ya (sorry i had to)
posted by HATER 187 at 08:30 AM on October 28, 2005
Ah, I'm getting a little tired of the Christian majority claiming how it's so persecuted. It isn't. You're, what over a billion strong across the world and in the US have managed to get a man with zero credentials two terms. And this whole thing about people not being upset if it were a Muslim or Jew or Hindu coming and preaching - ARE YOU NUTS!?!? 1) What do you really think would happen if Muslim speakers came into a school and started preaching? The damn SWAT team would be called in. 2) Where is this happening? Show me the schools freely inviting evangelical Muslims and Jews to come on over and convert the kiddies. It's a fantasy. Fact is - the only religion that dominates and still raises debate in schools across the country is Christianity, in it's many forms. Look, you're winning. I have no doubt that prayer will be allowed back in schools in some total Christian regions, women will again go back to being demure and resepctful in the presence of men, and children won't have to exposed to the terrible world outside the Christian ethos. Just stay away from the big cities - there tends to be more variety of belief there. And Tra Thomas is probably a fine god-fearing man. I'd have to see the presentation to truly discover if it offends. Nothing wrong with a man being honest about where he's coming from. However, there is something wrong about a evangelical organization leveraging an athlete's celebrity to sway impressionable children.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:53 AM on October 28, 2005
Timothy Garton Ash: 'America has two gods - Freedom and God' And that makes you different from the rest of the world. The tension between the two is apparent. Other countries don't have this debate, as they tend to be keep the public sphere secular and religious belief personal.
posted by owlhouse at 08:56 AM on October 28, 2005
they tend to be keep the public sphere secular and religious belief personal. As it should be. Anyone have an argument against this type of thinking?
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 09:21 AM on October 28, 2005
Weedy, that's beautiful!
posted by willthrill72 at 09:23 AM on October 28, 2005
Kids need to hear about God. Not my kids, my choice as to what to teach them. They get to hear about evolution, abortion, contraceptives, and every other twisted thing on the planet This is a true sign of the problems of christianity it can't keep up with the times. why do we get so upset when they hear about God; who preaches nothing but good. Unless of course your gay You know hater, you say that Christians need to keep up with the times. Quite frankly, I dont want to be part of something that changes its views to "keep up with the times" I am sorry-my faith is something I dont compromise. You have every right to believe what you want, We are, in fact, given a free will. What we do with our lives is up to us. Given where I am at in life and where I am going, being a Christian is the right choice for. I am not perfect, I dont pretend to be, and at the same time, I am not afraid to die cause I know where I am going. Many in today's world cant say that. (I am serious here so please no " I am going to hell to be with all of my friends" jokes) What these 2 Ball players were doing was providing kids with a good basic message. The invitaition to the concert was simply a choice. It was one that the students could turn down-they didnt have to attend. People are way too sensitive on this issue.
posted by daddisamm at 09:47 AM on October 28, 2005
I don't agree with this, but if you think a couple of football players coming into a school, talking about their faith and mentioning a Christian concert is going to turn your children into Bible-thumping holy rollers, you've done a pretty fucking lousy job of parenting.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:09 AM on October 28, 2005
Daddi I fail to see how contraceptives are "twisted" evolution is just a theroy nobody claims it to be (pardon my pun) the bible truth, abortion a very difficult and personal choice. This kind of dogma is what turns people off, it turned me off at a young age, agree with those who say the school screwed up and Mr Thomas should have been aware of where he was and what he was saying.
posted by HATER 187 at 10:22 AM on October 28, 2005
You know hater, you say that Christians need to keep up with the times. Quite frankly, I dont want to be part of something that changes its views to "keep up with the times" Not trying to argue with you, daddisamm, but your religion is one that has very much played ball with "the times" and the establishments of the world as they were throughout its entire history, and most notably so in its early years. That is, I think, part of one of the more important differences (from an institutional perspective) between Christianity and Islam.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:49 AM on October 28, 2005
Yes lbb, The early church (Catholic mainly) did try to keep up with the times. I'll give you that. I am talking about the basic christain faith as laid down that hasnt changed. What has, is they way the bible is translated and "rules" of the various demoninations of the faith.. The major problem with Christianity is that it has too many inturpetations going on. It can be really confusing to a person on the outside. A church or a demonination doesnt neccisarily make the Christian. I could go further, but this is a sports thingee and I will stop here. I still stand by my earlier comments about the players. bottom line lbb-I think you and I understand each others position enough to know that we can respect the other even though we do disagree.
posted by daddisamm at 11:07 AM on October 28, 2005
I am talking about the basic christain faith as laid down that hasnt changed. I suppose it depends some on your definition of "basic", but I could give you chapter and verse on some pretty fundamental things that have changed over the years. Note that Christ didn't "lay down" the Christian faith; that was all done by others, after his death, so if you want to dismiss the "rules" of the various denominations, you're dismissing all that too. But that's all rather beside the point, which is that the Christian church has always dealt with the Powers That Be and adapted its practices and doctrine to the existence of secular realities. Doing so now, WRT proselytizing in public schools, would hardly set a precedent. bottom line lbb-I think you and I understand each others position enough to know that we can respect the other even though we do disagree. I respect you plenty, daddisamm -- you're someone who walks his talk, and you have always impressed me as a compassionate individual. I respect you enough to believe that you probably would not approve of organizations that try to fly under the radar and promote Christianity under false pretenses, or that try to trick people into listening to them by initially concealing what they are. As others have pointed out, anyone who's interested can easily find a church and go there to get information on Christianity. Christians really should not be hunting people down in places where they don't have a choice to absent themselves.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2005
We are, in fact, given a free will. May not apply to Calvinists
posted by yerfatma at 12:15 PM on October 28, 2005
So it is written. (or pre-written?)
posted by chris2sy at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2005
Nothing wrong with a man being honest about where he's coming from. However, there is something wrong about a evangelical organization leveraging an athlete's celebrity to sway impressionable children. This needs to be said over, and over, and over....
posted by thewittyname at 12:23 PM on October 28, 2005
Thanks for the comments lbb... Its getting frustrating to see all of the hatered thats directed towards Crhistians all because of the shortcomings of a few people. I am done, thanks for listening!
posted by daddisamm at 01:42 PM on October 28, 2005
Comparing this man to a wolf in sheeps clothing is ridiculous. What is wrong with trying to "sway impressionable children" towards living their lives in a respectable manner. If this was an NBA star who invited the little children to a rap concert no one would say anything. Portraying someone who is trying to teach children faith based morals, as someone with a "hidden" adgenda only shows how insecure non believers are with themselves and their lack of faith. I assume this man was merely trying to inform as opposed to convert these kids. We give the benefit of the doubt to liberal, union members a.k.a. teachers when they try to inform our children on upcoming elections, why not give this guy the same.
posted by tselson at 02:22 PM on October 28, 2005
Congrats, tsenson. In one paragraph, you've managed to: - construct a strawman argument ("wolf in sheeps[sic] clothing", a comparison that was made by no one but you), - ignore a series of cogent reasons why people don't want their children taught religion except in a manner of their own choosing, - posit an absurd hypothetical (the NBA inviting "the little children" to a rap concert), - indulge in an absurd pop-psychoanalytical dismissal of those who don't agree with you ("how insecure non believers are"), - play a ridiculous word game ("inform as opposed to convert"), - use the "l" word to try to discredit the opposition ("liberal, union members"), and - create an absurd parallel between teaching current events and teaching religion. You've got a great future on the net. Keep up the good work!
posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:29 PM on October 28, 2005
Comparing this man to a wolf in sheeps clothing is ridiculous. I don't think it's ridiculous. Someone trying to hump either would be unpleasantly suprised.
posted by yerfatma at 02:39 PM on October 28, 2005
Some days, it's a joy and an honor just to watch l_b_b work. I'm gonna go buy you some bike shorts right after I get off work, just for making tselson blue. Get it? tselson blue? Ah, hell with it.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:16 PM on October 28, 2005
I got it, I got it...I wasn't born yesterday, or even this millenium. Bless you for the bike shorts; they always come in handy for something or other.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:27 PM on October 28, 2005
Cut tselson some slack. At least he rememebered to take the goddamn caps lock off. Ooops. I said Goddamn.
posted by willthrill72 at 03:51 PM on October 28, 2005
Dammit, willthrill72, stop persecuting Christians!
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:54 PM on October 28, 2005
TBH, I know lbb likes her bike shorts, but I'm sure someone here could use these. You gotta read the entire thing...
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 04:09 PM on October 28, 2005
What I'd like to understand is if Christianity is so perfect and obviously a Good Thing, why isn't it sufficient to teach children at home, in church or generally anywhere except the hours they're in school? I am talking about the basic christain faith as laid down that hasnt changed. <OT, sort of>Daddisamm, I'm under the impression that what we consider Christian faith wasn't actually codified until 325 AD at the First Council of Nicaea. The council was necessary because there were many different sects and each had a distinct take on the definition. This is interesting in itself given that historical accuracy, not counting the last century or so, is probably better the closer you get to the event. Nevertheless, can you tell me what Christian faith is even today? Which one of the following partial list has got it right: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witness, Jews for Jesus or Southern Baptists.</OT> More on topic, how does one differentiate basic Christian faith from, well, the rest of Christian faith? If you say it's the rules for how to live a good/virtuous life I'll respectfully answer that almost every religion in history has had fairly similar instruction on that topic. The Pope's pronouncements (to choose one proxy) are supposed to be taken as infallible statements whispered to him by God and yet some centuries ago Galileo was condemned by the Papcy. Only later, the Church later built and staffed some very large scientific institutions that explicitly agree with him. Today scientists tell us that condoms prevent STDs yet the Church (and IIRC you're not a Roman Catholic, but this is just a reasonable example for discussion purposes) says condoms are blasphemous and refuses to distribute them or support their use in regions where women have no ability to refuse men, and the men don't listen to priests.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:20 PM on October 28, 2005
Not blue, would be if I needed the shampoo...It seemed to me that a Christian posing as just a harmless athlete is the same to some people as a wolf in sheeps clothing. It also seems to me that people get extremely pissed off and call the ACLU when someone mentions their faith in a public place. If it isn't insecurity that breeds such brash reactions what is it? I don't go ape shit when a teacher tells my kids who they are voting for and why. Why get so worked up when someone offers an invitation to a Christian concert? There is no word game between "inform" and "convert" they are two different things. Wasn't trying to "discredit" the opposition, just saying when people share their views with my children and I oppose those views I don't insecurely demand that my child be forever shielded from other points of view. Teaching current events and religion isn't such an absurd parallel...not preaching and trying to "convert" people (that is for church) but teaching religion and how it is involved in current events. It seems to be a factor in the President of Iran's recent comments on the destruction of Israel! Have fun finding my spelling errors or whatever is wrong with my punctuation...and please don't post a link to a picture of you in your new bike shorts.
posted by tselson at 05:18 PM on October 28, 2005
It also seems to me that people get extremely pissed off and call the ACLU when someone mentions their faith in a public place. If it isn't insecurity that breeds such brash reactions what is it? People have explained repeatedly, in this thread and elsewhere, the reasons why they object to exercise and promotion of religion in public schools. I'm not going to repeat them; they're right there. Teaching current events and religion isn't such an absurd parallel...not preaching and trying to "convert" people (that is for church) but teaching religion and how it is involved in current events. But that wasn't what happened in this case, and that isn't a case in which people "call the ACLU". Public schools teach about the role of religion in history and current events; this is not the same thing as teaching or promoting religion. Make sense?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:29 PM on October 28, 2005
RZA - God would like to speak to you about your choice of vocabulary when speaking on his behalf He wants to "speak" to me about my choice of words while i speak on his behalf.But He wants to have a tupperware party with the ones here saying he doesnt even exist? AHH the foolishness of man. You attempt to stand at the very Judgment seat of Christ and offer your opinion on who he should reprimand. Your mistake is thinking that Only I will have to answer for what i have said here. Trust me when i tell you, Gods ways are not mans ways. I would love to see your face when he singles you out and asks why you singled me out. Not that will be ironic. "Judge not lest ye be judged, and with the measure that ye meet, it SHALL be measured to you again". Any time someone defends Christians, its assumed that they are Christians.If a white person defends someone black, do you assume that they are secretly black? Oh and RZA I'm gonna sow your asshole shut and keep feedin' ya and feedin' ya and feedin' ya (sorry i had to) As graphic as my previous post was, i cannot seem to get low enough to reach your level. "SO" i will just take this time to educate you on the different spellings of the word SO,SEW, and SOW. So you must remember, if you "sow assholes shut" thats exactly what your going to reap. and to think your a flyers fan. And last but not least,Would those of you who think everyone thats a Christian is catholic please do some research. Catholics make up about 18% of the "Christian" community.They have their own version of Christianity. they even have a different Bible. So when you say "Christians" have no morals because of what has happened in the catholic church. Its kind of like saying that a group of 50 year old retired members of the air national guard in kissamee Florida are just as responsible for finding osama binladin as the troops that are currently over there. I mean, both groups are military right? .
posted by RZA at 01:47 AM on October 29, 2005
RZA, can you really get upset about a reference to the first Wu-Tang album?
posted by yerfatma at 08:43 AM on October 29, 2005
AHH the foolishness of man. So what species are you?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:30 PM on October 29, 2005
RZA, your arrogance regarding the subjective 'fact' of divinity is reason enough for me to completely read your comments as evidence of the totalitarianism that is the church. I agree entierly of the mistake to lump Christians into a large pile - since their particular views on God usually equate, but their belief in the dogma and configuration/structure of society do not. Which leads to inevitable conclusion of faith being a politic by another name. In my experience, those that are religious are less actually consumed by the salvation of the soul, and more so by the idea of what the country should look and act like (though one would suggest that these are not mutually exclusive - however, in practice one is just used to justify the other). There is little room for anything like tolerance, humbleness or acceptance of any other standard - other than to pay lip service to the notion for the sake of appearance. And that is the frightening combination of arrogance and ignorance that fuels the fires of hate.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:40 PM on October 29, 2005
In my experience, those that are religious are less actually consumed by the salvation of the soul, and more so by the idea of what the country should look and act like... There is little room for anything like tolerance, humbleness or acceptance of any other standard - other than to pay lip service to the notion for the sake of appearance. And that is the frightening combination of arrogance and ignorance that fuels the fires of hate. You hit the nail on the head, Weedy.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 04:09 PM on October 29, 2005
Your mistake is thinking that Only I will have to answer for what i have said here. Trust me when i tell you, Gods ways are not mans ways. I would love to see your face when he singles you out and asks why you singled me out. Not that will be ironic. That's some loving God you got there. Now I see why Tra wanted to share him with the kids.
posted by cl at 06:47 PM on October 29, 2005
My just and merciful God can beat up your just and merciful God.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:07 PM on October 29, 2005
Bottom line here folks-There are too many opinions being passed along as facts. Then you turn around and make stupid jokes about the Christain faith. Its gotten to the point where its not worth discussing as anything true and positive about the faith will be shot down. Some of you think you know it all about the subect.. Trust me, you dont. Funny thing is-I hear--"we need to talk about Sports". Yet its these same people that post a topic like this one and then proceed to trash the Christain faith. I come here to talk sports not to have my core beliefs ripped apart. For the record--the history of corruption in the catholic church should not be used to judge christain beliefs as a whole. Your only distorting the truth. So lets talk about how lousy our fantasy football teams are doing! .
posted by daddisamm at 01:06 AM on October 30, 2005
I must be being punished for defending speaking about religion in schools...started Brunell yesterday. Collins on my bench. Nice game Redskins.
posted by tselson at 12:03 PM on October 31, 2005
So I believe in Jesus so and do not use his name like that
posted by nignighttroop155 at 02:24 PM on October 31, 2005
I'm right there with you daddi, we might as well just talk sports... I have Peyton, Harrison, Holt, Burress, Rudi Johnson, Domanick Davis, and Tony Gonzales but only in 4th. I thought I'd easily be 1 or 2. By the way, David Barton is a great guy for anyone to learn about the truth of the Founding Fathers. I highly encourage everyone to listen to him or read his books.
posted by stick at 05:53 PM on November 01, 2005
Race yesterday, religion today. What's up for tomorrow, abortion?