11/05/24
July 26, 2005
posted by mr_crash_davis to baseball at 10:29 PM - 61 comments
I think Maddux is a borderline case. If he could just somehow stick around long enough to get a few more wins, he might make the Hall. Ultimately he will lose votes though because of him showing up in the media a few too many times during his career for the wrong reasons.
posted by holden at 10:48 PM on July 26, 2005
If he stopped pitching tonight, he goes in now. Ufez's stats aside, he was the marquee pitcher on the best pitching staff of the 1990s. In. Even before tonight. In, in, in, in.
posted by chicobangs at 11:04 PM on July 26, 2005
chicobangs -- you make the common mistake of assuming that the Hall is ready for the guy who more than anyone else brought a gangsta rap mentality and lifestyle to baseball. Don't forget that the folks who vote on the Hall are of a generation that largely believes that Mad Dog is something you're more likely to find on a wino than on a pitcher's mound. I'm not so convinced it's a slam dunk case.
posted by holden at 11:12 PM on July 26, 2005
the guy who more than anyone else brought a gangsta rap mentality and lifestyle to baseball Um...wow, that unintentionally made me chortle, a lot. Maddux as gangster? Where on earth are you coming from, holgate? I don't know where he stands in the era for standards of HBP, although it appears that he's had about 8 a year? Roughly? I honestly don't know if that's high.
posted by Ufez Jones at 11:37 PM on July 26, 2005
Hit batsmen? Maddux is 5th for active pitchers and 30th for career He only led the league in hit batsmen once. '92 He's in first round unless they punish him for that damn silly "Chicks love the long ball." commercial.
posted by ?! at 01:06 AM on July 27, 2005
holden, I'd maybe buy that argument (although I have never, ever heard it before) except for one name: Don Drysdale. Don's a legit and worthy Hall of Famer who blew back more hitters than anyone, and never missed an opportunity to throw at anyone's head who he felt was within spitting distance of the plate. Don was an asshole on the mound, and he made no apologies for it. And he's in. And Maddux is a better pitcher than Drysdale ever was. 100 more wins, 500 more K's, and again, he was the ace of the best pitching staff of his decade, which means a lot come ballot time. In.
posted by chicobangs at 03:36 AM on July 27, 2005
Holden--Your posts are priceless. You're right. Maybe if Maddox notched a few more wins to his mediocre record instead of spreading the gangsta rap gospel whenever he takes the mound, he might squeeze in as a HOFer. Ultimately he will lose votes though because of him showing up in the media a few too many times during his career for the wrong reasons. Right again. When he wasn't pitching, he was always out seeking the media. He was the anti-Kenny Rogers. Always ran up to the cameraman to get his picture on the evening news.
posted by roberts at 05:18 AM on July 27, 2005
Pretty sure holden's reaction to the question ("Maddux bound for HOF?") was the same as yours Ufez. "The Best Right-Handed Pitcher You've Ever Seen" was what SI called him. Of course, that was only a few years before Pedro started his Cy Young run, but who knew he was coming?
posted by yerfatma at 06:03 AM on July 27, 2005
First ballot, no question. The string of 15-win seasons, the ratio and the pile of Gold Gloves makes this one simple.
posted by ajaffe at 07:46 AM on July 27, 2005
first ballot - it's not even close Bill James HOF monitor has it as a cinch & probably one of the top 10 pitchers to ever play HOF monitor
posted by dgphilli at 08:06 AM on July 27, 2005
Even without the 3000 K's, Maddux is a slam-dunk lead-pipe cinch for induction into the HOF. He is easily one of the very best -- if not the best -- pitchers of his era. He gets in almost as easy as Sandy Koufax, and Koufax didn't need to load up on career stats, he was simply the best of his era and the voters knew it. Anyone who thinks Maddux is "borderline" isn't clued in to the way the voters think. Maddux will get more first ballot votes than Palmeiro -- take it to the bank.
posted by the red terror at 08:13 AM on July 27, 2005
I'm with holden. Maddux will face the same problem as Bonds - he's had a good enough career to earn votes from some of the writers who don't mind that he only won 20 games twice. But some of those writers will be put off by the way he treated them and his array of off-the-field...uhhhh, "episodes." Borderline sounds about right to me. Don't forget that he's the active leader in losses, with 181.
posted by mbd1 at 08:34 AM on July 27, 2005
You could make a case for Maddux being one of the top seven or eight pitchers ever - factoring in his best seasons, Cy Young awards and his ERA crowns (posting miniscule numbers when the league averages were more than double what he had). 3,000 strikeouts is an incredible number for a guy who has never been a power pitcher. His best year was 204 (I think Nolan Ryan had that many in Spring Training). I'm a big Maddux fan - one of the most unlikely performers in the history of the game. I mean, the guy wore glasses for most of his career. Congratulations Poindexter.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:42 AM on July 27, 2005
yerfatma, Pedro's a lock for the Hall himself, but I'd take Maddux's career over Pedro's any time.
posted by chicobangs at 09:01 AM on July 27, 2005
mbd1, holden: I personally think that the time he shot that man just to watch him die...that was the turning point for me. NO HALL FOR MADDUX!
posted by grum@work at 09:20 AM on July 27, 2005
What other names would you use as being dominating pitchers in the last 10 years. Maddux, Clemens come to mind first. But Johnson,Schilling,Martinez....... There ae alot of good pitchers, but there is a difference in good and domination. You can pitch an awsome game and still lose 1-0, if your team can't put points on the board to help. Which has happened to Maddux a couple time this season,Clemens as well.
posted by volfire at 09:25 AM on July 27, 2005
4 Cy Youngs, 13 Gold Gloves, 313 wins, over 3,000 K's, 3.00 career ERA. Why is the conversation even being held?
posted by dyams at 09:40 AM on July 27, 2005
4 Cy Youngs, 13 Gold Gloves, 313 wins, over 3,000 K's, 3.00 career ERA. Why is the conversation even being held? Amen dyams. Plus he threw a two-hitter against the Indians in the World Series and was the biggest reason the Braves earned a ring that year. What more does he need to prove? grum, you must be talking about Mike Maddux, right?
posted by smithnyiu at 09:54 AM on July 27, 2005
What "off-the-field issues" are you folks referring to?
posted by ajaffe at 09:57 AM on July 27, 2005
Wow, so many to chose from. The time Maddux got in a knife fight outside a strip club in Atlanta at a Super bowl party. Two guys were killed. I think it was about a month after his rap album came out. The one with the 'Cy Hung' track. I still think he's cool though.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:01 AM on July 27, 2005
All the illegitimate children scattered about the country......the time he threw a dude through a plate glass window at a bar.....three or four drunk driving arrests.....that time when he threw a ball at a fan who was heckling him....I could go on and on.
posted by mbd1 at 10:08 AM on July 27, 2005
only a complete moron would even suggest that GM doesn't deserve the HOF! Yea, there are a few borderline cases in there already, but not this guy. His record is amazing both for consistency and dominance. Any writer who votes no, should have his credentials stripped and forced to wear a dunce cap for a year because he or she, knows NOTHING about baseball! Ask the players that batted against him, or played on the field behind Maddux, if he deserves the HOF. Not some geek with a pen or Laptop! Godsakes!
posted by bluekarma at 10:13 AM on July 27, 2005
That's right, mbd1. And his ties to various terrorist groups, the fact that he dumped his high school sweetheart to marry Jennifer Lopez, the embarrassing voicemails he left on Diane Sawyer's cel phone, the sex tape with Tommy Lee, that hobo he killed during that month-long road trip during the Atlanta Olympics, oh and he leaves the toilet seat up all the friggin' time. Any of those by themselves wouldn't sway the voters, but together... they're hard to ignore.
posted by chicobangs at 10:14 AM on July 27, 2005
I love how his teammates refer to him as being nice, but 'stabby'.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:19 AM on July 27, 2005
Also, don't forget the incident with the goldfish and the vacuum tube in that hotel in Houston and the time he and Tom Glavine were caught trying to use shoulder-mounted surface-to-air-missiles to shoot Smoltz's balls out of the air at the driving range and accidentally torched a Chick-Fil-A (which, it being a Sunday, was luckily closed, but still).
posted by holden at 10:25 AM on July 27, 2005
What really gets me is the time he set up a charity foundation for orphaned children from Rwanda....and then stole the proceeds and blew it all on a four day bender at the Gold Club. Funny how star athletes can get away with these things.
posted by mbd1 at 10:27 AM on July 27, 2005
Maddux's pimp hand was way strong in the 1990's...you better ask somebody. He's in man. If you say he isn't then he might hear about it and come and get you...do you really want that?
posted by chris2sy at 10:34 AM on July 27, 2005
seems to me that the question here is not whether GM deserves to get in to the HOF; the question is whether the FUBAR voting system (and those who vote) will let him in. If the media who loved/hated him so much get to choose his HOF fate, doesn't that make the HOF a f*****n popularity contest? I think enough of the voters work for Turner that GM will get in, blemished media record or not. He's in. in my completely unenlightened, turner hating opinion, he's in.
posted by markovitch at 11:36 AM on July 27, 2005
I think his HOF candidacy clearly depends on how the whole BALCO era shakes out. Clearly he has been on something since his rookie season. 
posted by smithers at 11:45 AM on July 27, 2005
btw chris2sy, it looks like it wasn't just his pimp hand that was way strong...
posted by smithers at 11:47 AM on July 27, 2005
Well, as it's set up now, the Hall of Fame is a popularity contest. But that said... "blemished media record?" You really think that's going to make a difference? Steve Carlton, another pitcher with a comparable level of on-field accomplishment, froze out the media for most of his career, and when he did open his mouth, he did himself no favors to the media or anyone else. Somehow, the Heathers at the BBWAA had no problem overlooking all his assholiness and voted him in by a comfortable margin. Compared to Lefty, Maddux is just a little ornery. If he doesn't go in at the top of the class in his first year, I'll buy everyone posting in this thread a Cadillac. (Nice 'stache, though. He'd do himself some favors if he grew that little cookie-duster back out.)
posted by chicobangs at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2005
Compared to Lefty, Maddux is just a little ornery. If he doesn't go in at the top of the class in his first year, Careful. What if he retires at the same time as Clemens? I'd put Clemens ahead of Maddux, and I think the voters will too. Especially since Clemens never kicked puppies on camera.
posted by grum@work at 12:16 PM on July 27, 2005
You're calling Maddux a self-centered prick and then comparing him to Roger Clemens? Seriously? What parallel universe did I just fall into?
posted by chicobangs at 12:22 PM on July 27, 2005
I think he'll get in, but I really am just posting to get a free Cadillac. Thanks Chico. (I think a silver one will be fine)
posted by MNJ1193 at 12:28 PM on July 27, 2005
Seriously, Clemens is a jerk in a different way that should reflect less negatively on him in the minds of HOF voters. I can see where you might compare the two, but it's not the same if you really look at it.
posted by AstroAnnie at 12:47 PM on July 27, 2005
I don't want to turn this into a Clemens-bashing session, really I don't, but -- AstroAnnie, you see the 'stros regularly. How often does Roger refer to "the team" when he speaks? In Boston, Toronto and New York, there was an uninterrupted stream of "I, me, my, my fastball, my strikeout totals, me, me, me." The concept of a team never entered his consciousness. And then he would leave town in a way that always seemed to screw over the team he was leaving. Say what you like about Maddux, but when he left the Cubs, he did it in a way that he was still welcome back. And he was an actual winner and linchpin of the Braves the entire time he was there. Clemens, for all his talent, was never a team leader. In fact, I'm not sure he knows there's a team around him, except as little oompa-loompa type henchmen who exist to help him pad his personal statistics.
posted by chicobangs at 01:02 PM on July 27, 2005
Yeah, he might be all about himself--BUT--he behaves himself off the field. That's not the nicest thing, being all about "me" but he's never done anything to tarnish the image of the teams he's been on or of ballplayers in general. Unlike Maddux. I think they should both go in, because I believe it's supposed to be about what goes on inside the lines. But I don't get a vote. And I can see where some of those who do might give some weight to off-field activity.
posted by AstroAnnie at 01:11 PM on July 27, 2005
Who said you had to win 20 games every year to get into the HOF? If you are consistant throughout your career, odds are you'll get in. Palmeiro is the same way. Never was a huge home run hitter. He has been consistant and his numbers have grown quietly because of it. Both are first ballot HOF.
posted by dbt302 at 01:11 PM on July 27, 2005
Steve Carlton, another pitcher with a comparable level of on-field accomplishment, froze out the media for most of his career, and when he did open his mouth, he did himself no favors to the media or anyone else. All-time, never forget memory: I'm like 7 or 8 watching ABC news with my parents when they interview Steve Carlton who utters that signature conspiracy line about the 6/7 Jewish bankers in a bunker in Switzerland. I was like 7 years old and still I thought, "No way that's right."
posted by yerfatma at 01:12 PM on July 27, 2005
I think this may be the stupidest topic as well as link, i've ever read on this site. why....because their is no question he's been a lock in the HOF for a while now. And to tell you the truth he didnt even need one strikeout to his credit to get their. He's got 300 wins, and is the best controll pitcher of his era...period. Where have you people been the last 15 years.....
posted by gregy606 at 01:23 PM on July 27, 2005
I think Maddux is a borderline case. If he could just somehow stick around long enough to get a few more wins, he might make the Hall Please...Maddox has broken Cy Young's records....isn't that the standard pitchers are measured against? Maddox will go to the hall.
posted by jlbelt at 01:25 PM on July 27, 2005
No, really, what did he do?
posted by ajaffe at 01:54 PM on July 27, 2005
If pitchers are measured against Cy Young, none of them would ever get in. He had 511 wins....Maddux is 200 behind that. Here are a few of the worst pitchers in the HOF, and how Maddux compares to them: Jack Chesbro: ERA of 2.68 (GM 2.95) Burleigh Grimes: 314 CG (GM 105) Red Ruffing: 45 SHO (GM 35) Dazzy Vance: 11 SV (GM 0) Bottom line is that while Maddux has some nice numbers, he trails a lot of mediocre pitchers in other categories. AstroAnnie: That's not the nicest thing, being all about "me" but [Clemens] never done anything to tarnish the image of the teams he's been on or of ballplayers in general. Unlike Maddux. Right on.
posted by mbd1 at 01:55 PM on July 27, 2005
We really need some sort of universal satire indicator in this thread, before someone stumbles into this thread and completely loses it...
posted by grum@work at 02:00 PM on July 27, 2005
I'd take a team-first guy who's not necessarily a people person like Maddux over a me-me-me guy like the Rocket who demands to be paid top dollar even if it means the team can't sign other players that might improve them, and then will bolt whenever he's distracted by a shiny object somewhere else, retirement plans be damned, and leave discontent and destruction in his wake, 8 days out of the week. "never done anything to tarnish the image of the teams he's been on?" Would leaving an organization unexpectedly financially hamstrung and a clubhouse in disarray count as being damaging? Because Clemens has done that everwhere he's been, to varying degrees. And he'll do it in Houston, too. I feel like I'm talking to Ike Turner's new wife or something. I feel for Astros fans, because hometown or not, he's going to screw you guys over, too. You don't deserve it any more than Bosox fans, Jays fans or even Yankee fans did before you.
posted by chicobangs at 02:07 PM on July 27, 2005
^^ not satire, just poor grammar.
posted by chicobangs at 02:09 PM on July 27, 2005
He's still 13th on the kist in BASEBALL HISTORY. So now you have to be p.c. to get in the H.O.F.?
posted by volfire at 02:12 PM on July 27, 2005
list not kist
posted by volfire at 02:24 PM on July 27, 2005
Sorry to jump back in so soon, but: Bottom line is that while Maddux has some nice numbers, he trails a lot of mediocre pitchers in other categories. "some nice numbers?" 15 straight 15-win seasons. 300 wins. 3000 k's. 13 Gold Gloves. 4 Cy Youngs. Those are "nice numbers?" What's good, then? Or great? Who else has had a career that looks that good, that consistently, for that long, in that many different aspects of his profession, ever? Not Happy Jack Chesbro, that's for damn sure. So let me make sure I've got this: you're saying he shouldn't be in the Hall because he has fewer saves than Dazzy Vance? The best you can do is compare him to four pitchers from 60+ years ago in one arbitrary category each?
posted by chicobangs at 02:25 PM on July 27, 2005
Bottom line is that while Maddux has some nice numbers, he trails a lot of mediocre pitchers in other categories. Not to mention how far he trails his non-HOF contemporaries in numerous other categories: Vince Coleman: 28 HR (GM - 5) Ken Caminetti: 88 SB (GM - 6) Bob Uecker: .200 BA (GM - .179) Gabe Kapler: 281 RBI (GM - 72) Bottom line is, while Maddux has some nice numbers, he trails a lot of mediocre players in other categories.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:25 PM on July 27, 2005
Very astute.
posted by yerfatma at 03:29 PM on July 27, 2005
I think this may be the stupidest topic as well as link, i've ever read on this site. Can we actually identify this sometime? I mean, c'mon... there must be better.
posted by YukonGold at 03:29 PM on July 27, 2005
Some of you, I think, have been dipping into the Black Tar Heroin that Maddux used to run on Ted Turner's old America's Cup boat. He was known far and wide as the most viscious smuggler in the entire Western hemisphere. In fact, before the lobotomy, he'd have carved us all up into little pieces just for typing his name. No wonder you guys (some of you, anyway) don't want him in the Hall. Now, how long until we get into the horrors of Dale Murphy's twisted life?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:30 PM on July 27, 2005
He does top the list of player/murderers though, which you gotta admit is pretty 'leet: Ty Cobb: 1 Greg Maddux: 2 (or 3, if the rest of that hooker's body is ever found) First ballot.
posted by cl at 03:45 PM on July 27, 2005
Not to mention how far he trails his non-HOF contemporaries in numerous other categories: Bob Uecker is in the HOF, shoulda gone in as a player. Maddux is absolutely first-ballot. Most anytime a player is referred to with the epithet "future hall-of-famer" by current broadcasters and writers for several years before he even retires, you know he's going in. Pete Rose is the notable exception.
posted by rocketman at 05:14 PM on July 27, 2005
Now, how long until we get into the horrors of Dale Murphy's twisted life? Whatever you do, don't say his name four more times!
posted by grum@work at 06:49 PM on July 27, 2005
Has any pitcher with 300 plus wins not made it to the HOF ? Has any pitcher with 3000 plus strickouts not made it to the HOF ? Add in the gold gloves and this equals a retarded question .
posted by evil empire at 08:10 PM on July 29, 2005
Has any pitcher with 3000 plus strickouts not made it to the HOF ? Well, there are four players with more than 3000K and not in the Hall of Fame, and three of them are still active (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux). The fourth, Bert Blyleven, has 3701 K (which is 5th on the all-time list). He also has 287 wins, which is third most (behind Tommy John (288) and Bobby Mathews (297) for wins by an eligible pitcher not in the Hall of Fame. He hasn't even gotten to the 50% mark once in the 8 votes for which he's been eligible (1998-2005).
posted by grum@work at 09:58 PM on July 29, 2005
so much for 3000 k's being a benchmark to getting in the hof . of course being 287-250 and an career era of 3.91 doesnt help blyleven's case . nothing really stands out about him except 22 years pitching and the k's .
posted by evil empire at 10:50 AM on July 30, 2005
career era of 3.91 Actually, it was a respectable 3.31. Bert Blyleven is an almost exact duplicate of Ted Lyons and Robin Roberts, both who are in the Hall of Fame. Wins: BB 287 - TL 260 - RR 286 Winning %: BB .534 - TL .531 - RR .539 ERA: BB 3.31 - TL 3.61 - RR 3.41 ERA+: BB 118 - TL 118 - RR 113 IP: BB 4970 - TL 4161 - RR 4688 It's just that Bert had FAR more strikeouts than either of them, even if you account for the extra innings. BB 3701 - TL 1073 - RR 2357 And a strikeout is considered the "perfect" result for a pitcher. Their hall of fame progression: Ted Lyons took 11 years (1945-1955) to go from <2% to 86% of the vote. Robin Roberts took 4 years (1973-1976) to go from 56% to 86% of the vote. What am I getting at? The usual: Bert Blyleven should be in the Hall of Fame, and the only thing stopping him is an arbitrary number (300 W) that hasn't stopped other pitchers before him.
posted by grum@work at 12:21 PM on July 30, 2005
No doubt he's a first-rounder, IMO. Just check his career stats: over 300 wins, better than 3000 Ks (as of tonight) and a career ERA right at 3.00. Add 14 Gold Gloves (13 straight) and 4 straight Cy Youngs, what doubt is there? He's been consistently fantastic, and is probably the single best placement pitcher I've seen in my lifetime. Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine are at the forefront of the best pitching trios of all time. Seriously, is there any question? And I ask this as an armchair at best Mets fan that has continually been stymied by the Braves dominance of the NL East for, essentially, half of my lifetime.