12/22/24
December 26, 2004
Reggie White dead at 43: Sad. Just sad.
He hadn't been to church in years. He was learning Hebrew so he could read the scriptures directly... he might not have been the most open minded guy, but I will give him credit for trying as hard as he could to make himself better. chicobangs, you're right to attempt to give him credit for trying, but if he truly wanted to change his ways why didn't he just recant what he said? If the shoe were on the other foot people of White's conservative ilk would not do the same. I offer my compassion to White's family, but it's just sad that to people like White compassion is only campaign slogan. Regardless of the man's views, the world and world of sports has lost a great competitor, a true champion and a man who always gave it his all.
posted by Bag Man at 12:19 PM on December 26, 2004
MSNBC has a long story on White's recent disenchantment with organized religion. Didn't know that.
posted by rcade at 03:00 PM on December 26, 2004
Dead at 43, huh? Let's just say makes me wonder how many steriods you have to do to damage your heart. Of course the media won't mention that because the official line is that he was a great guy, right. That's the fairy tale we should believe I suppose.
posted by Mike McD at 07:58 PM on December 26, 2004
Mike McD, do you know who's gonna speak at your funeral? You know what they're gonna say? Are you sure?
posted by chicobangs at 08:41 PM on December 26, 2004
Cheap shot, Mike. A phenomenal player and, by most accounts, a good man. And that's too young for anyone, least of all the Minister of Defence.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:59 PM on December 26, 2004
I had a friend die of a rare heart condition related to mitral valve prolapse at age 27 while playing basketball and an uncle who died of a heart attack in his sleep at age 50. Jumping in and blaming steroids here seems like a big leap to me, considering the countless other things that could have been going on. White's suspected cause of death is respiratory failure caused by sleep apnea. He had some unusual health problems at the tail end of his career when he contracted sarcoidosis. Googling around, sarcoidosis is a rare, incurable lung disease that causes permanent lung damage in 20-30 percent of afflicted people and is a 1-in-100 cause of sudden cardiac death in athletes. The disease is 10-15 times more prevalent in blacks, especially in the southeastern U.S., and the steroids required to treat it can cause sleep apnea.
posted by rcade at 10:32 PM on December 26, 2004
Getting back to football, how good was the Philadelphia Eagles defensive line back in 1990 with White, Brown and Clyde Simmons? White made history by signing with the Packers, but I wonder if he would have tried harder to stay in Philly if Brown hadn't died in that car crash, breaking up one of the great monstrous lines in modern NFL history.
posted by rcade at 10:41 PM on December 26, 2004
White died of respiratory failure related to his sleep apnea That's a quote from the linked article. Nothing in there states, nor implies, damage to his heart, from steroids or any other factor. You wanna piss on another guy's grave, at least get your facts straight... On RW...I remember a commercial for one of the Genesis football games with Joe Montana's name on it. The commercial was showing how they ran Joe through all their paces in the making of the game. One scene had him in a shrink's office, taking an inkblot test. The shrink would show him an inkblot and say "what do you see?" and Montana would say "Reggie White." The shrink shows him another and says "what do you see now?" and Montana said "Reggie White." Almost made me chuckle...
posted by MeatSaber at 02:05 AM on December 27, 2004
how good was the Philadelphia Eagles defensive line back in 1990 with White, Brown and Clyde Simmons? Very. A little cursed too. No matter how many of White's records get broken, I think I will always remember him as the strongest player I ever saw. He and Ben Coats and Mark Bavaro had a monstrous natural strength, allowing them to overpower the world-class behemoths around them. Joe Montana Football for the Genesis. What great memorites. Punting on 3rd down and hearing Pat Summerall say, "Uh oh, what a mistake!" Not a very defensive-minded game. We stopped playing once it got to the point where a 94-yard bomb on your first play from scrimmage meant you sucked because you didn't return the kickoff for a TD.
posted by yerfatma at 09:55 AM on December 27, 2004
FYI, The reason it occured to me is I was talking to a friend who's a doctor when we saw the news. Literally, the first thing he said is 'I wonder if he didn't do steriods'. Which is what I said ... makes me wonder how many steriods you have to do to damage your heart. I'm not saying that White did steriods but I think you have to be willfully blind for the circumstances not to raise a flag in your mind. And Meatsaber, I am perfectly aware of the facts. My friend also said that sleep apenea is treatable and it makes no sense that it to be fatal unless the patient is refusing treatment. You have to be willing to at least consider that there is some incentive to cover up in the official accounts any sign of steriod abuse to protect White's legacy. Now if we have someone with an MD who wants to weigh in on this and says this isn't suspicous, that would be very interesting. But I'm not just shooting off my mouth. This friend also happened to have treated a power lifter who used steriods and had a heart attack at 37. I would be suspicous of any NFL athlete who dies at an early age. And here's my point. I think the media loves to play a certain narrative. With White it's that he's a great guy. With Bonds's it's that he's a jerk. Well I watched White seperate Troy Aikman's shoulder and talk about how when he tackled QB's he would squeeze their arms together, drive their shoulder into the turf, land his weight on them, and how he could hear them crunch like cockroaches. Lovely dude. I prefer Bonds myself. Rcade, you of all people love to jump in and judge athletes, I'm shocked that you object to me shooting of my mouth. Anyway, that's off the point. In regards to your point about your friend and your uncle it would obviously depend on the circumstances. If they happened to be huge dudes who could bench press 600lbs I'd probably be suspicious. If they were just regular guys who played sports and died of a fluke heart defect then it is not suspicious. Finally, about actual football, that 1989 Eagles defense was the finest I have ever seen. White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, Joyner, Eric Allen, and Wes Hopkins were in their prime. So you had a line of White, Simmons, and Brown backed up by Seth Joyner and a solid William Thomas. In the secondary Allen was a threat to return any pick for a TD, for one year they had rookie Ben Smith playing at a pro-bowl level (before he caught his knee in the turf ... in Cleveland if I remember correctly), Hopkins, and Andre Waters who was slow but could hit like mad bull. Teams played not to lose against that defense because the D was just as likely to score as the O. I have never seen anything like it. With free agency I don't think it will ever be matched.
posted by Mike McD at 04:18 PM on December 27, 2004
posted by garfield at 04:31 PM on December 27, 2004
I don't object to your speculation; I just don't see any evidence to back it up at this point. What exec put together that Eagles team? When you consider that the Skins, Giants, and Cowboys all won Super Bowls around that time, and the Iggles were that good, the NFC East was incredible back then. With one exception, we're about as far from that today in the division as we could possibly be.
posted by rcade at 04:37 PM on December 27, 2004
The Eagles defensive line of 1989 and 1990 was probably the best any of us have ever seen and will never be matched it's in the books forever. regardless of what anyone one says white did not use steroids he had no use for them and to suggest something like that shows great stupidity, a cheerleaders point of view might not mean much to you but some of us do actually pay attention to the game
posted by cheerchick at 09:55 PM on December 27, 2004
A cheerleader that knows football! So, without any formality - will you marry me? I clean up real good.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:24 PM on December 27, 2004
Weedy! No! She's from Winston-Salem so she's probably a Demon Deacon fan! Stay away!!!!!1!!one /just kidding from a Wolf Pack fan
posted by NoMich at 11:11 PM on December 27, 2004
Mike McD, you are a heartless SOB! People like you that have no talent for anything are alway happy to see somebody like Reggie fall. Your dream will never be realized, mike, because there will be many more reggie like players for you to envy, with absolutely no hope of ever knowing what it feels like to be great at something, ever! Mike you are a looser! Anyways, it is a sad reality for the sporting world and a devostating news for those of us with souls. We'll miss you RW and may you rest in peace.
posted by chuckstar at 11:17 PM on December 27, 2004
See ya Reggie. I may not know a lot about gridiron, but I know enough to realise that you were a true great.
posted by squealy at 04:48 AM on December 28, 2004
Who left the door open? Ridiculous posts without facts or intelligent arguments... this doesn't normally happen here. Make it stop! Any time I hear about an athlete dying of heart trouble early, I think of steroids. It's a common cause. I thought of it here too, but decided that given his nature to be outspoken about his beliefs in other areas, it was unlikely that he used them. Then, it turned out to be a moot point, since it was caused by something else entirely. Before the facts were out though, it was a legitimate question. I don't see why this makes Mike McD a looser.
posted by Bernreuther at 08:06 AM on December 28, 2004
Mike McD, You might want to do a little investigation before making accusations (steroids). I have sarcoidosis - I can tell you that steroids are the ONLY accepted medical treatment for sarcoid at this time - however, you do not have to be on steroids to die from sarcoidosis. I have not used steroids because I believe the cure is worse than the disease - and has not proven to be that helpful. I have had the disease for a little over 2 years - and now have to sleep in a recliner every night in order to breath. My husband cannot bear to sleep in the same room with me, my breathing is so irregular (sleep apnea). I awake every night with pain in my chest and difficulty breathing. The disease is like suffocating to death. Your heart just cannot take the stress of doing all the work; your lungs are so filled with calcium deposits (nodules) there is no room for air. Do some checking before making such horrible accusations. It's bad enough for the family to deal with his death without people saying such things. This disease is more common than people think - when I discovered sarcoid to be the cause of my health problems a friend in my Bible study group told me her mother died of it - a heart attack brought on by stress of not being able to breath. Recently our preacher's daughter discovered she also has the disease. A former patient with a Phd in macrobiology has discovered the cause to be macrobacteria within the cell walls. He has found a treatment, but it is not yet medically accepted. P.S. Prior to getting sarcoid I exercised daily and was in great health - my favorite sport was windsurfing! I now have trouble even climbing the stairs.
posted by lghoeck at 08:33 AM on December 28, 2004
Sorry to hear about your health woes, lghoeck. That sounds like a tough thing to deal with. The preliminary autopsy of White concludes fatal cardiac arrhythmia caused by sarcoidosis.
posted by rcade at 09:05 AM on December 28, 2004
Wow a guy that cleans up good i never would have geussed. Actually i'm not a deacon fan. sorry to hear that lghoeck my uncle has it too he used to play baseball. anytime you hear about an ahletes death you think steroids wow doesn't it seem like your the one without the facts? (Bernreuther)
posted by cheerchick at 10:00 AM on December 28, 2004
So a guy who makes his living pushing around some of the strongest people on Earth dies of a heart attack in his early 40s and suggesting steroids might be involved makes someone an idiot? I understand Reggie was a beloved figure in football, but let's be realistic: steroids is an acceptable discussion point in this situation. The autopsy suggests they're inrrelvant now, but when Mike made his comment, no such info was available. If we start insulting each other over uninformed opinions, this site might as well shut down.
posted by yerfatma at 11:47 AM on December 28, 2004
The discussion of steroids, for me, wasn't even the issue. It was that the guy's body wasn't even cold yet, and not a whisper of it had come up (where it has for many of his peers and predecessors), and as we all know, tone is everything. I'm all for speaking ill of the dead, but until Quincy showed up, this thread was ostensibly about the accomplishments Reggie White did, and not the drugs he did. Or didn't do. (Which was why I asked if Mike knew what people would say at his funeral. Which was an honest question in light of where he took the thread.)
posted by chicobangs at 11:59 AM on December 28, 2004
I repeat "Do some checking before making such horrible accusations. It's bad enough for the family to deal with his death without people saying such things." If you think what you say won't hurt his family, think again.
posted by lghoeck at 12:12 PM on December 28, 2004
This is not a funeral home, and we're not Reggie White's loved ones. If you can't stomach the thought of idle speculation about a sports figure's untimely demise, man have you come to the wrong place.
posted by rcade at 12:16 PM on December 28, 2004
amen
posted by garfield at 12:26 PM on December 28, 2004
This is the first time I have ever posted on a board - and will be the last. The internet gives voice to many people; you have proven my theory that most of it is gossip and hurtful and many of those who post do not care who they hurt. Obviously you are not Reggie White's loved ones and obviously you have not experienced false accusations first hand or you would not be so loose with your comments. I pray you will see first hand what "judging someone guilty before seeing the facts" does before others are hurt by your offhanded comments.
posted by lghoeck at 12:35 PM on December 28, 2004
If you take the time to read about sarcoidosis you will see that the only treatment available is the use of steroids namely Prednisone. This steroid is not a performance enhancing steroid. Usually additional medicines are needed to counter its many side effects. My wife suffers from sarcoidosis as well, and it's been a 3 year battle following Lung surgery which removed 1/8 of her lung. She started out with 60mg of Prednisone daily and continued for about 2 1/2 years at 15mg to 20mg daily. She has recently come off the steroids completely but it was a long process. Because prednisone takes over the body's natural ability to make its own cortisone, coming off of prednisone has to happen very slowly. For her she had to come down 1mg a day for a week then if she was still feeling. Coming off Prednisone too quickly is not safe and can cause death. The links I have listed deal with transplant surgery but the prednisone info is the same for those using it for the treatment of Sarcoidosis as well as the many other things it is used for. Hope this helps a little.
posted by dtippery at 12:38 PM on December 28, 2004
Looks like the links did not come through. http://www.transweb.org/reference/articles/drugs/pred.html http://www.transweb.org/qa/qa_txp/faq_pred_discont.html
posted by dtippery at 12:42 PM on December 28, 2004
you have proven my theory that most of it is gossip and hurtful and many of those who post do not care who they hurt. thanks for that blanket indictment.
posted by garfield at 12:43 PM on December 28, 2004
hurt by comments? hurt by comments on the internets? Come on now. So some people speculate whether Reggie White did steroids on the internet or whether his death was related to taking them. So what? Doesn't look to be the case for the moment and I didn't hear anyone saying it was the carved-in-stone-gospel... Its like when Jerome Brown died in a car accident if someone wondered if he was drunk or something... Speculation happens when stuff like this happens. Originally wasn't it ONLY stated that he had a heart attack and then later the linkage with the sarcoidosis and sleep apnea possibly related to having to take the prednisone, etc., started coming about? Now, it sounds like sarcoidosis-sleep apnea due to taking meds-then an irregular heart rhythm and leading to cardiac arrest? That is as of now I think.
posted by chris2sy at 12:54 PM on December 28, 2004
The internet gives voice to many people; you have proven my theory that most of it is gossip and hurtful and many of those who post do not care who they hurt. Conversations just like this are taking place about Reggie White at sports bars around the country. What you blame on the big bad Internet is simply an aspect of human nature; we have an awesome ability to talk out our ass.
posted by rcade at 12:58 PM on December 28, 2004
Agreed. I thought Mike's comments were out of line at that point in the conversation, but certainly they weren't a capital offense, and way worse stuff is being said on every other sports board out there. If any of Reggie White's family or friends are reading this thread, my thoughts are with you.
posted by chicobangs at 01:14 PM on December 28, 2004
I found the almost immediate mention of a steroid induced heart attack out of place simply because as a 300 pound man in his 40s a heart attack brought on by cardiovascual disease wouldn't exactly be unexpected.
posted by crank at 02:04 PM on December 28, 2004
It is amazing to me that we as a people do not understand the toll sports take on a human body. Especially a sport like football, we often forget that these guys are human beings. Sometimes the pressure to perform is so great, for example their team is in the playoff and they’re injured, but their team has no chance without them, so they’ll ignore the doctor and take “THE SHOT,” you know the no pain till later shot, causing grave damages to their bodies. They do this for their team and fans because if they didn’t they will be called cry baby, greedy and selfish. Sometimes they are in so much pain that they need something to take the edge off. And after sacrificing their body and some with their life for our entertainment, people like mike will make a comment like this. I don’t know what else to say to get you to understand. Reggie’s professional career made many people very rich and even many more happy fans. I don’t care what anybody say, but without Reggie white, Bret Favre and the Packers will not have a ring in the nineties. Reggie was so great that QBs take a knee at the sight of him. Not like today’s NFL that it take a congregation to bring down a QB and they always manages to gets the ball off. Reggie is always doubled or triple teamed and he will use one hand to either swipe these men to the ground or he will drag them with him to the QB. He was one of the first defensive players that opponent’s offense must account for in their game plan. Maybe I can forgive you, if you never saw Reggie play. I suggest that you tivo espn classic asap.
posted by chuckstar at 02:12 PM on December 28, 2004
So, yerfatma, you are telling me that it is better to accuse somebody of using steroids than to call them an idiot? You are obviously in the same looser boat with mike.
posted by chuckstar at 02:24 PM on December 28, 2004
And if we don't tighten this boat up, it's going to sink deep in the Grammatical Sea.
posted by yerfatma at 02:43 PM on December 28, 2004
Let me see if I understand your point, Chuckstar: Because athletes like Reggie White cause grave damages to their bodies, we should honor their sacrifice by pretending they haven't done grave damage to their bodies.
posted by rcade at 02:59 PM on December 28, 2004
So a guy who makes his living pushing around some of the strongest people on Earth dies of a heart attack in his early 40s and suggesting steroids might be involved makes someone an idiot? So...you are telling me that it is better to accuse somebody of using steroids than to call them an idiot? My head hurts. Considering the willfully turned blind eye through which we've all filtered out the dark-side of the sporting world when it comes to getting an edge on an opponent, yes, suggesting Reggie White at one point used steroids is quite legitimate, especially considering his reknown super-human strength, regardless of his stature in NLF-lore. I loved the guy, but I immediately thought of 'roids. Shit, he didn't even make it to the frighteningly young NFL average of, what, 52 years of age?
posted by garfield at 03:05 PM on December 28, 2004
Its not just what you say, its also how you say it. Point blank, mike is wrong. You are all idiots. The average age is what it is because of the type of job they do. Why dont you go bang your head against the wall for fiften years and lets see how long you'll live.
posted by chuckstar at 04:40 PM on December 28, 2004
I'm not suggesting that anyone who accuses athletes like Reggie of using steroids is stupid but i'm saying you should get the facts before opening your mouth and honestly if you have ever lost a loved one and people start talking you know how it feels. Especially if they were a well known person that led a pretty respectable life. People make a bigger deal then needs to be made. What i'm saying is you should always think about who your going to hurt before you say or do somthing. All of us are guilty of opening our mouths before thinking and that's what we are sitting here fighting about. I mean you should always try to look at things from the other point of view you know the one completely opposite of what your fighting for. your right none of us except maybe mike see the bad things that are involved in the WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS but no matter how hard we try to forget them they are still there and by writing this i am hoping that you will all see how stupid it is to fight over somthing so insignifcent we all know now that steroids have been ruled out and what's said is said and you can't take it back no matter how hard you try. i don't know if any of you have noticed but we havn't heard from mike since yesterday and maybe you should go back and read his last post
posted by cheerchick at 04:41 PM on December 28, 2004
Personally I think that chuckstar is right Why dont you go bang your head against the wall (ground) for fifteen years and lets see how long you'll live. Football players are constantly beating each other and getting injured how long would you live? steroids are not the cause in most of the cases it's just gossip don't you think that after highschool you should know how to filter out things like that? It's what they feed to the public to keep us reading and watching and to stop us from thinking
posted by cheerchick at 04:50 PM on December 28, 2004
SpoFi : We are all idiots. I likes it.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 04:59 PM on December 28, 2004
You are all idiots. The average age is what it is because of the type of job they do. Why dont you go bang your head against the wall for fiften years and lets see how long you'll live. Chuckstar, so did they repeal the 14th Amendment without telling me? Because otherwise nobody's pointing a gun at pro athletes to use their bodies how they do. Ricky Williams walked away from millions to relax and smoke weed, more power to him. OTOH, in the last few months one of the big stories we've been discussing on this board is BALCO and related illicit drug usage by world famous athletes so I don't think raising the question of possible steroid use by White is out of line, especially given Mike's second comment giving context to his first. Coming in to an established group like this and throwing around insults IMO make you the idiot. If you've got nothing better to add, no need to stick around.
posted by billsaysthis at 05:02 PM on December 28, 2004
...don't you think that after highschool... honey, don't go there. You are all idiots. The average age is what it is because of the type of job they do. second, you make my point for me: ballers juice. much more so than the non-bang-your-head-against-a-wall-human. perhaps there could be a correlation? sounds reasonable to me. idiot say what? (sorry, couldn't resist)
posted by garfield at 05:03 PM on December 28, 2004
You are all idiots. I am in the penalty box and I feel shame.
posted by chris2sy at 05:07 PM on December 28, 2004
first don't call me honey and second don't go where? and third i'm geussing a lot of things sound reasonable to you Garfield And billysaysthis your right no one held a gun to their heads and second maybe your the one who doesn't need to stick around and yes we are all idiots regardless of who says what
posted by cheerchick at 05:19 PM on December 28, 2004
/goes down with ship
posted by yerfatma at 05:20 PM on December 28, 2004
sorry, honey is inappropriate. i would've called you dude, if it makes a difference. i just found humor with you referencing highschool when you can't seem to use punctuation.
posted by garfield at 05:24 PM on December 28, 2004
Ahoy! Blog Overboard!
posted by garfield at 05:27 PM on December 28, 2004
From the new user message: As a member, you have the freedom to post links to the SportsFilter front page. You also have the privilege of commenting on any discussion that interests you. We value free expression and are extremely reluctant to alter or remove member contributions. We trust the members of the community and believe you will treat others with the respect you would afford yourself. We look forward to your contributions to the site. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
posted by lilnemo at 05:46 PM on December 28, 2004
SpoFi : We are all idiots geez, talk about not getting the facts before opening your mouth. did you do any research to see if in fact all 1447 of us are in fact idiots? plus, the phrase is a little too red soxish for my tastes and i actually find it downright oppressive to us yankee fans. i mean, what i mean is i thought this intarweb thing was all kittens and rainbows where no one jumped to their own conclusions no matter how legitimate they may seem because doing so may hurt someone's feelings and now you've offended me and other yankee fans and anyone who's has loved ones who are yankee fans. i really should't have to use this but for the sake of the new kids... /sarcasm garf, you can call me honey if you'd like.
posted by goddam at 07:07 PM on December 28, 2004
Wow, you guys really are stupid. When would Reggie White ever need steroids? It has never been proven, and up until now there hasn't been a public accusation of using steroids, so why would you say that steroids is the cause of his death? For all we know this could be some family thing that is passed down. It is despicable that you would damn one of the greatest defensive ends of all time by saying that he used steroids
posted by bigD103310 at 07:41 PM on December 28, 2004
It is unproven that he has/hasn't used steroids.. so i think most of you guys are jumping to conclusions because of the whole BALCO thing
posted by bigD103310 at 07:47 PM on December 28, 2004
Too bad Mr. “billsaysthis” you can’t get rid of me that easily. A hateful person like you wants everybody to agree with him or else you want him or her banished. I don’t have to like what you or anybody else says in this page or anywhere else. All you guys know how to do is criticize other people about anything. If not their life style, it is their grammar or anything meaningless like that. Remember is easier to point fingers than to offer a helping hand. I wonder how many of you guys are actually living a perfect live. It is not that I can’t take what is being said on this page. I thought that some things are secret, you know like death (at least the first 24 hours). And if you were to bring something like this up, do it in a sensitive way for the sake of the dead and their love ones still in mourning.
posted by chuckstar at 07:52 PM on December 28, 2004
Too bad Mr. “billsaysthis” you can’t get rid of me that easily. As one of the founders of this site, I can vouch for the ease with which you or any other excessively abusive new member could be put on the waiver wire. It would take a couple button clicks. Let's take the personal stuff down a notch, newbies. You have to get to know us better before you can make an informed judgment of how stupid we are. At this point, you're just making a guess.
posted by rcade at 08:36 PM on December 28, 2004
Too bad Mr. “billsaysthis” you can’t get rid of me that easily. A hateful person like you wants everybody to agree with him or else you want him or her banished. I don’t have to like what you or anybody else says in this page or anywhere else. Why would you want to participate with a group of people you claim are idiots and hateful? Note that you're the only person to mention banishment, I sure didn't. I just don't see the value to you in sticking around. OTOH perhaps you enjoy calling people names and throwing insults around AND getting them back in turn... Anyway, we've had nearly 4000 threads on this site and you think you can judge us by a few comments in one of them? Especially since your response is based on misunderstanding just one comment? Okay then.
posted by billsaysthis at 08:41 PM on December 28, 2004
SportsFilter: They peed on my fucking rug.
posted by geekyguy at 08:50 PM on December 28, 2004
Let's take the personal stuff down a notch... Damn! /puts down pitchfork //dowses torch ///takes effigy down
posted by NoMich at 11:12 PM on December 28, 2004
what the hell happened in here? It's like a parent coming home and finding the house trashed by the kids. you all are grounded! and clean up this mess! As for Reggie White, he was a great football player, and the things he said off the field don't much concern me, and iirc steroids was never an issue wih him, he was always a stocky guy with natural ability, he just didn't have that roided out look. And i should know I played with guys who were pumping the juice in their asses when I was at the Cuse. I see we have some new members, hi, how you all doing, hope you'll come back when we are having a beter day.
posted by jbou at 11:25 PM on December 28, 2004
Here we go with the threats, rcade. You are a little man, and that is why you want to press buttons to get rid of people. Perhaps that will make you feel powerful, you know like Reggie. It is all coming together now. All you want is to make people that disagree with you go away. Founder or not, you are still only a man with an opinion. Opinion that I strongly disagree with, so go ahead do your thing and make me go away, you loser. And look who can’t take the heat after all. I thought it was a free country and we can say anything we want without knowing the facts. I believe it is called speculation. For example, accusing somebody of using steroids. This is very interesting, you morons can give it but you can’t take it. Perhaps it is you that need to find a new hobby.
posted by chuckstar at 01:10 AM on December 29, 2004
BillSaysThis, "Anyway, we've had nearly 4000 threads on this site and you think you can judge us by a few comments in one of them? Especially since your response is based on misunderstanding just one comment? Okay then." Now you know how Reggie’s family feels about this steroid nonsense. Thank you very much for making my point bill.
posted by chuckstar at 01:21 AM on December 29, 2004
chuckstar. Please check yourself. You just got here and you have immediately started in attacking some of the more respected members of the community. Regardless of how you feel about any topic to denegrate to calling names, (the word is loser, btw), is rude and as lilnemo pointed out not in the spirit of SportsFilter and not the way to make yourself welcome in any community. Weedy McSmokey had already called out Mike McD in a civil manner and your attack was piling on and uncalled for after he had clarified his initial statement. This is seen as even more egregious since no one knows who you are. Like it or not that is how it works. SportsFilter is a privilege. As pointed out by rcade, "If you can't stomach the thought of idle speculation about a sports figure's untimely demise, man have you come to the wrong place."
posted by geekyguy at 05:05 AM on December 29, 2004
Now you know how Reggie’s family feels about this steroid nonsense. Thank you very much for making my point bill. Explain further. I'm all for personal insults, but tenuous logic will not abide. Perhaps it is you that need to find a new hobby. Masturbation fills the days nicely for me, so no thanks.
posted by yerfatma at 06:14 AM on December 29, 2004
Allow me to clarify. I think that my orginal comment may have been misconstrued. That wasn't a sarcastic rhetorical question suggesting that Reggie White had done boatloads of steriods. It was an honest question. And the question was triggered because I was talking to a doctor when we saw the news and his immediate reaction was to wonder if steriods were involved. Anyway, I talked to him again yesterday in light of the discussion board and because I was interested in what he thought. Here's what he said. 1. He thought sarcoidosis is a treatable disease. Lghoeck, this doesn't jibe with your account. Your story was quite convincing in making me wonder about this. Can you tell us anymore? Do you know what triggered your sarcoidosis. Has treatment been able to control the disease or not? This is actually an area where the internet can advance the discussion. (and Dtippery don't assume I'm an idiot. I understand perfectly well that steriods are used to control inflamation and the difference between performance enhancing steriods and topical steriods which are used to control inflamation.) 2. He still thought it was unusual for someone who was 43 to die of sleep apnea, especially a former athlete. 3. For everyone who is screaming at me he died of sarcoidosis ... he didn't. He died of "fatal cardiac arythmia", caused by sarcoidosis. Okay, for the layman fatal cardiac arythmia = heart attack.
posted by Mike McD at 07:43 AM on December 29, 2004
From what I read this week, sarcoidosis is often treatable but not curable, and can cause serious lung damage in some people who have it.
posted by rcade at 08:25 AM on December 29, 2004
yerfatma, can i nominate you for some hilarity award or something? your shits been killing me, and i don't tell you often enough how much i enjoy [sniffle] your comments. i'm geussing a lot of things sound reasonable to you ouch. and goddam, thank you. i just may be so inclined.
posted by garfield at 08:46 AM on December 29, 2004
Honestly honey, my shits have been tearing the ass out of me lately too.
posted by yerfatma at 09:46 AM on December 29, 2004
I would add a further comment. When I made the initial comment the autopsy results weren't yet available. This thread is days old. So don't assume that the facts that are available now were available when I posed the question. And Chuckstar, you are right, I don’t like Reggie While. But you’re wrong about why. I don't hate Reggie White because he was great. I hated Reggie White primarily because I thought he was a phony (and secondarily because he injured Troy Aikman). I remember all the interviews he did talking about whether being a minister was consistent with being a football player. And his easy certainty always rubbed me wrong. I saw a quote from White's Green Bay days that reminded me of why. White said God had sent him to Green Bay to tackle sin and QB's. As if football was so important that God actually took an interest in whether Reggie White sacked a QB or not. It was that attitude that I couldn’t stomach. I guess this gets into a larger discussion of Christian athletes who I often find to be unbearably self-righteous (the exception being Darrell Green who has always seemed to be a genuinely humble person). I think there are two things at work. One is the posse effect which I think was best described, oddly enough, in the Sports Guy’s review of HBO show entourage. I’ll just quote the whole section. Much like an athlete's posse, a Hollywood "Entourage" is infinitely more complicated in real life, mainly because celebrities usually surround themselves with friends from "before" they were famous ... yet many of those friends invariably turn out to be leeches and opportunists. Sometimes they have bigger attitudes than the actual celeb -- incredibly, they're the ones ordering people around and acting like asses. They're also backstabbing everyone else for Tom Hagan status; they want to be his right-hand man, the one guy he trusts, a celebrity by proxy. Ignoring these realities would be like having a show about an NBA team where all 12 guys love each other. The audience would never buy it. Of course, these posse members need the celeb -- he's the one who supports them, employs them, opens doors that would never open on their own. It's almost like a form of addiction. They owe EVERYTHING to the celeb. So they act accordingly. And the constant butt-kissing and posturing ends up giving the celeb a mutant form of ominpotence. If everyone keeps telling me I'm great, well, I must be great. It's like a little cocoon. If you ever wondered why some of these celebrities go crazy ... well, that's why. They don't know who to trust, and the people they do trust only tell them things they want to hear.. And then you have the effect of organized religion. Again, I’ll defer to a quote that does a better job of expressing the sentiment that I could. This is from Jim Wallis an evangelical pastor. Faith can cut in so many ways, If you're penitent and not triumphal, it can move us to repentance and accountability and help us reach for something higher than ourselves. That can be a powerful thing, a thing that moves us beyond politics as usual, like Martin Luther King did. But when it's designed to certify our righteousness -- that can be a dangerous thing. Then it pushes self-criticism aside. There's no reflection. Where people often get lost is on this very point, Real faith, you see, leads us to deeper reflection and not -- not ever -- to the thing we as humans so very much want … easy certainty. Take those two dynamics, add them together, and it seems to often lead to an ugly self-righteousness. I don’t know … maybe it’s because I could never be so presumptuous … maybe I did hate White because he has a self-assurance that I don’t. But I think that White’s subsequent embarassment in front of the Wisconsin state legislature lends some credence to my intution that he wasn’t quite the man the media portrays. And the fact that he renounced organized religion makes me suspect that White himself might have agreed with me.
posted by Mike McD at 09:54 AM on December 29, 2004
But you do accept people are going to get pissed when you use someone's death to testify about your beliefs, right? I mean, if Reggie hadn't kicked the bucket this week, you'd have had a hard time squeezing some organized religion into most of the threads here.
posted by yerfatma at 11:05 AM on December 29, 2004
Yes, I understand that. But that's not what triggered the initial post. The catalyst for the original post was, and still is, the fact that I was sitting with a doctor when we heard the news and he immediately thought it was suspicious. And since we're on a discussion board I thought I would to respond to people who are disparaging my motives.
posted by Mike McD at 12:44 PM on December 29, 2004
/opens door "Hey! I'm back from my Xmas break! What's happ..." /sees room in disarray "Okay then...I'm going to go grab a burger and I'll be back later..." /slams door /sound of car driving away
posted by grum@work at 04:35 PM on December 29, 2004
Chuckstar, are you a member of Reggie White's family or someone in close communication with them this week? Otherwise, how do you know how they feel about Mike's comment and this thread? You talk a big game but I'm waiting for you to walk the walk.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:44 PM on December 29, 2004
Bill you say so much, but yet you say nothing at all.
posted by chuckstar at 10:29 PM on December 29, 2004
Ha ha ha Chuckstar, thanks for the laugh. In fact I actually made sentences with meaning, something completely absent from your last comment; of course the truth is that you took personal offense at the comment but couldn't rationalize saying so, hence the attempted family misdirection.
posted by billsaysthis at 11:23 PM on December 29, 2004
Qeeky Qeeky Qeekyguy…. What is it about you guys and who just got here and who has the right to say what and when. I’m sorry I made a very serious and obviously ill advised assumption, which is that this page was based in the United States, being that we are talking about football and all. I might be wrong, because half of you guys sound like a bunch of communist fascists to me. All I did was use the word loser and you’re ready to hang me. And I only did it because I know it will make my point, which is that you do not jump to conclusion or speculate… etc, and boy did it hit the nail on the head. “Check myself?” are you kidding? Half of you guys contradict yourselves in almost every comment. One minute you’re talking about showing respect, another minute you’re denigrating a dead man’s legacy. Think about this for a second. I don’t know you and you want me to show respect to you and the rest of the guys, just because you were here before me. O.k. now think about this, you guys don’t know Reggie White, he is a legend, he made a difference in the lives of many people, he just died, and yet some of you show no respect. That sounds f'd up to me! Nevertheless, I never said that some athlete don’t or didn’t use steroids or any other PIDs (performance enhancing drugs). All I was trying to say was and still is that, it wasn’t that mike was wrong for discussing steroids; rather the manner in which he brought it up was wrong, mainly his tone and his timing. Yerfatma, bill made my point by getting upset because I speculated by him without having dinner with him first, just like some people did with Reggie White. To Mike, I don’t think that you’re a bad person. In fact, after reading some of you recent comments, I think that you are pretty honest fellow. Now don’t go misunderstanding honesty as being right. I still think that your comments were pretty brutal. MD or no MD, I think that we’re all responsible for what we do and say, no matter who advised us. You wouldn’t jump out of a window if this doctor friend of yours said that it would strengthen your bones, would you?
posted by chuckstar at 11:42 PM on December 29, 2004
...
posted by grum@work at 02:11 AM on December 30, 2004
This is fun.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 04:25 AM on December 30, 2004
I have never, at any time, been a Communist facist. Y'know, whenever I trolled a message board, I always thought spelling and grammar helped sell the bait.
posted by yerfatma at 06:25 AM on December 30, 2004
I'm very sorry Reggie died.
posted by rocketman at 06:54 AM on December 30, 2004
You wouldn’t jump out of a window if this doctor friend of yours said that it would strengthen your bones, would you? Common sense tells us that jumping out of a window - at least a window far above ground level - may have some harmful effects. Thus, any doctor who gives such advice would be easily understood as joking. There have been recent, high-profile incidents regarding athletes who have either admitted to using performance enhancing drugs, and some who have died - directly or indirectly, we can't be sure - as a result of this. So a doctor who knows a thing or two more about medicine than most folks speculating that Reggie White may have taken steroids, and that this may have had negative consequences regarding his health, can be understood to be speculating and bringing a more informed opinion to the table. But just because he suffered from sarcoidosis does not mean he did not take steroids back in the day. Just because he was a great guy does not mean he did not take steroids. Just because he was "one of the best" and "a class act" does not mean he did not take steroids. He did play at a time when many players did take them, and there wasn't a strict NFL drug policy. I don't know if he did or if he didn't, and I don't really care. Either way this is sad.
posted by rocketman at 07:16 AM on December 30, 2004
I'd never jump out a window, son. Don't dishonor my memory.
posted by Reggie White's Ghost at 09:02 AM on December 30, 2004
i think Bush stole the election.
posted by danostuporstar at 10:49 AM on December 30, 2004
don't jump to conclusions or speculate. the internet is no place for that. it is unfortunate that the man died and it really should be known just why somebody relatively young has died and what that means for other football players. or something like that.
posted by gspm at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2004
rocketman your point is well made, but why did we have to go there the day after the man died.
posted by chuckstar at 01:12 PM on December 30, 2004
When O.J murdered...a.a.. I mean when O.J was on trial for the alleged murder of his ex wife Nicole, the judge did not allow any damaging evidence about her in court. This was because she was dead and couldn't defend herself, plus it dishonored her death, and she wasn’t on trial. We all knew what the accusation was, but most of us didn't discuss it.
posted by chuckstar at 01:18 PM on December 30, 2004
Wow. I mean, just wow. Wow again. What does this have to do with the rules of a jury trial? Those rules are there to prevent humans from following human nature and bringing up things that might bias a supposed-to-be impartial jury. We all knew what the accusation was, but most of us didn't discuss it. Where were you during the incident? Because I wanted to kill my TV (even though it's my god and watcher and tutor and . . . secret lover) because I couldn't get away from all the speculation. I can't see Marcus Allen that I don't think, "You [had sex with] Nicole Brown Simpson". I'm pretty sure I found that out on TV; if I'd been under the bed with The Juice when it was going on, I'd remember something like that.
posted by yerfatma at 01:26 PM on December 30, 2004
yerfatma, you are incorrigible, just incorrigible, I mean, oh so incorrigible.
posted by chuckstar at 01:35 PM on December 30, 2004
but why did we have to go there the day after the man died because. get over it.
posted by garfield at 01:49 PM on December 30, 2004
yerfatma, you are incorrigible, just incorrigible, I mean, oh so incorrigible. So why bother?
posted by yerfatma at 01:57 PM on December 30, 2004
I don't think anyone's planning on trying to corrige you any time soon, pal. You're safe here.
posted by chicobangs at 03:04 PM on December 30, 2004
May I have some more, sir?
posted by yerfatma at 03:13 PM on December 30, 2004
... why did we have to go there the day after the man died. Because it would have been difficult to talk about his cause of death while he was still alive.
posted by rcade at 06:31 PM on December 30, 2004
We could have tried though. You could have said he'd die from steroid abuse. I could say he'd be eaten by a giant salamander. I'd get better odds. Good times.
posted by squealy at 07:17 PM on December 30, 2004
maybe we should start a sports-related celebrity death pool.
posted by goddam at 09:05 PM on December 30, 2004
maybe we should start a sports-related celebrity death pool. Put me down for $20 on "Lance Armstrong" and "Car Accident". And another $10 on "David Beckham" and "Autoerotic Asphyxiation". And finally, my longshot pick is $25 on "Jeremy Roenick" and "Physically Crushed By Ego".
posted by grum@work at 01:40 AM on December 31, 2004
How is that a longshot?
posted by NoMich at 08:36 AM on December 31, 2004
He's pretty young, plus with no NHL, his ego is pretty small at this point. Unless they resolve the lockout situation, I don't think he'll have a chance to expand it any time soon.
posted by grum@work at 09:29 AM on December 31, 2004
Reggie White was a great man, nobody can deny that. But it is pretty sad that he died; it wasn't his fault though.
posted by pack_man at 12:46 AM on January 01, 2005
This post is very old and very sad, but there is news here for sarcoidosis sufferers. It awes me that Reggie could do all that he did, while most likely suffering from sarcoidosis for much of his career. Most people have sarcoidosis for a long time before they are diagnosed. Reggie truely was one of the greatest ever! Reggie could possibly still be alive if the NIH (National Insitute for Health) would open their eyes and really learn about the disease and quit telling the general public that Steroids are the only treatment. Sarcoidosis is a immune system disease that affects the entire body including the heart. Sarcoidosis is a silent killer. It kills as many people as Aids, but no one talks about the Sarcoidosis epidemic! Steroids like prednisone have been the standard treatment for years, and I might add the wrong treatment. Understand that prednisone is not an anabolic steroid, no atheletic performance gains come from its use. Sarcoidosis is actually caused by cell wall deficient bacteria and there is a real cure! Anyone in who posted to this that has sarcoidosis or has a loved one that has sarcoidosis please search the internet for the marshallprotocol. E-mail me if you can't find it! I think Reggie would want this posted so that others could be spared what he went through. He would want to know that his death enabled others to live!
posted by KanCity at 04:08 PM on September 01, 2005
Yeah. And before the "He was just another racist knucklehead" posse arrives, of which I would have happily been a member, it's worth noting: According to Andrea Kremer, who was with the family up until last week, he not only recanted those remarks, the whole episode made him question his belief system to the point where he recanted religion as he knew it, and was in the middle of a spiritual quest to get to the root of his faith. He hadn't been to church in years. He was learning Hebrew so he could read the scriptures directly... he might not have been the most open minded guy, but I will give him credit for trying as hard as he could to make himself better. My condolences to his family.