11/05/24
February 14, 2004
Uh, oh....another variation of everyone's least favorite story: A-Rod in pinstripes?
here's some more wood to add to the fire.
posted by jasonspaceman at 01:48 PM on February 14, 2004
I don't see how the Yankees would move A-Rod to third instead of putting Derek Jeter and all of his most-valuable intangibles there. If Texas does this deal and takes on even a dollar of A-Rod's contract for the Yanks, I may have to give them up.
posted by rcade at 01:51 PM on February 14, 2004
Was thinking the same thing rcade...A-Rod is a much better at SS than Jeter. I too would shuffle Jeter to 3B before Rodriguez.
posted by pivo at 02:11 PM on February 14, 2004
And the Newsday story reporting that it's all but a done deal (!). I'll believe it when I see it. But boy, it's starting to look like there's something here. If this goes through as reported, what an awful, awful deal for Texas.
posted by jeffmshaw at 03:11 PM on February 14, 2004
So they go from Manny/Nomar to Soriano/minor league arm and they'll now, all of a sudden, pick up some of A-Rods contract? Mark me down for "I don't get it".
posted by pivo at 03:16 PM on February 14, 2004
Wouldn't have been Manny/Nomar -- just Manny. And Soriano has a much smaller contract than Manny, which means Texas can afford to pick up more of A-Rod's contract.
posted by Bryant at 04:14 PM on February 14, 2004
All bow to the power of the Evil Empire!
posted by jbou at 06:50 PM on February 14, 2004
all of a sudden, pick up some of A-Rods contract? ESPN (tv) says they'll save an additional $20 million over the Sox offer. The over/under on games before Jeter is at 3B is 10.
posted by yerfatma at 08:03 PM on February 14, 2004
didn't find out until about an hour ago. what an blissful day/night of ignorance. naturally, my first inclination was to punch myself in the face, repeatedly. now that that has subsided... i think at this point, prior to today even, i am more content with manny and nomar than arod. does this make the yankees better? absofuckinglutely. does this clinch the division already? no. it's going to come down to pitching and which team stays healthier. SportsGuy, Bill Simmons, had some good points on SOSH: I dunno... for some reason I'm not panicking about this one. Consider... 1. How does A-Rod make the transition from "Guy who was a control freak with a huge ego who signed a ludicrous contract that he knew would screw over any chance Texas had to be good, plus demanded to call pitches from shortstop and seemed to be on a crash collision course with his manager" to "Guy making $25 million a year who's just happy to be on a good team and has no problem playing 3B when he's twice as good defensively as the current SS"? 2. How is Jeter happy about having the best SS in baseball breathing down his neck on the same team, when people already question his D? 3. Is there any way the NY press won't be making a huge deal out of this all season and blowing up every perceived slight, comment, incident and everything else? 4. Didn't they just trade a guy who everyone thought was the next Hank Aaron just 10 months ago for a guy who makes 5X as much money? 5. Starters under 30: Vazquez (27), A-Rod (2 , Jeter (29). It's evolved into an older team with no young pieces. And their farm system is shot. Right? 6. If the Post is right, and Contreras IS involved... that's unbelievable. What happens if Brown breaks down? 7. How will they have money this summer to trade for another pitcher if Brown breaks down, or something happens to Mussina, or Leiber (or whomever steps into his spot if he's dealt) doesn't pan out? Would they be willing to shatter the $200 million mark this summer and make a complete mockery of the sport? 8. How many people in the history of sports will have more pressure on them than A-Rod this season? 9. EVERYONE will hate the Yankees after this. As if they didn't already. If we beat them after this trade, it only makes things that much sweeter. F them. PS: I don't ever remember looking forward to a season more than this one. This is unbelievable. It's a Cold War. They should just start bombing each other. -- and Schilling chimes in, also from SOSH: Have to laugh at anyone that's even remotely shocked by this. The unlimited payroll bitching is rather old now too. It is what it is, and we'll deal with it. Does it make them better, well I don't know. Does adding a guy that, when he retires, has a legitimate chance to be the best all around player in the games history make you better????? Hell yes it makes them better, offensively, defensively it's not even close, they get much better. Fact of the matter is the ownership of this team chooses to build a team based on in depth talent and character analysis, as well as payroll impact. You can't bitch and moan about the lack of effort on the Red Sox end, they reached for the stars on this, and it didn't fit. I'm more than ok with that. You can argue this way and that in regards to who's talked to whom, how certain guys were handled and treated this winter. But no one other than the parties involved knows what's really happened and if you look back, most, if not all, of the negative comments directed at the Red Sox fall into this area. They've worked their asses off to make this team a world series contender, and we are, period. Arod to the Yankees, if it happens, just makes winning this whole thing that much sweeter IMO, when it happens. It's another challenge, but after 85 years did any of you think that getting over this final hurdle and winning it all was gonna be a cake walk? No, it'll be more fun this way. This way, when we do win it all, and you all are out there flipping birds back and forth with Yankee fans, you'll be smiling a whole lot wider. It was gonna be a challenge before this rumor, and with or without Arod the Yankees are going to be real real good, so let's move on, let whatever happens happen, and focus on the fact that the best Boston Red Sox team in the last 100 years takes the field in 7 days, for a ride that is guaranteed to be the most memorable of any of our lives over the next 8 months, and enjoy the hell out of it.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:59 PM on February 14, 2004
Schilling is great. Too bad he's a Red Sock. I've gotten tired of Sports Guy. He used to be my favorite writer, but it seems like his logic has been a bit flawed and biased Caple-style lately, and even his jokes are recycled and tired. I was fine with this team without this, but obviously I can't complain. I love big news so I'm smiling ear to ear, even if it only gets us one or two wins over Soriano. Just imagine... Giambi, ARod, Sheff, back to back to back. That's ridiculous. Then it's a huge dropoff to Bernie, Posada, et al... (though personally I'd lead off with Jeter then Bernie - Lofton isn't that good and imho was a waste of money) insane. I don't mind losing Soriano because even with all that production he pissed me off with his lack of discipline. I feel like he hit a ceiling and won't get any better, just because of that. I'm still rooting for him and hope he does well in Texas, but I don't think I'll miss him. Certainly not as much as NJ. If Jeter doesn't immediately step up in spring training and move to third I will lose a lot of respect for him. The whole universe aside from Harold Reynolds the Idiot knows that he's not in the same league defensively. (not only did reynolds repeat that Jeter was the best SS, he also had the mathmatical feat of saying that Texas is going from 105 to 60 mill in payroll by losing Arod. Really. 45 mill lost, even after adding Sori at 5.4 and paying part of Alex's? Interesting.)
posted by Bernreuther at 12:36 AM on February 15, 2004
Then it's a huge dropoff to Bernie, Posada, et al. this of course was slightly sarcastic. I'll be pissed if this team doesn't win 120.
posted by Bernreuther at 12:37 AM on February 15, 2004
Front page of today's Post: Best Move Since Babe
posted by forksclovetofu at 02:31 AM on February 15, 2004
wow.
posted by jasonspaceman at 09:33 AM on February 15, 2004
Interesting. A-Rod is a helluva a player to be sure, but the Yankees just have too many gaping holes in their lineup to start calling them prohibitive favorites for the 2004 World Championship. In October, good pitching beats great hitting almost every time. Perhaps some Yankees fans have forgotten what happened to them in the last three postseasons. Without at least one quality left handed starter in the rotation, I don't see the Yanks making it past the Divisional round of the playoffs.
posted by psmealey at 10:14 AM on February 15, 2004
I'll be pissed if this team doesn't win 120. You and the rest of NYC. Which is why people love Yankee fans so much. What on earth makes this team likely to win 120 games in your mind?
posted by yerfatma at 10:46 AM on February 15, 2004
All I know is that this has something to do with a curse.
posted by 86 at 11:46 AM on February 15, 2004
Soriano will be a Yankee again in two years, he'll be patrolling centerfield and Nick Johnson will be back too, the Yanks are just loaning the Rangers and Expos a couple of players till they become free agents. Jeter should volunteer to move to second base not third, his range is slipping but he's still athletic enough to play 2nd base.
posted by jbou at 11:51 AM on February 15, 2004
This sounds about right: And in Boston, the Red Sox must move on knowing that they could have had the game's best player, if they had been willing to take on more money. Boston appears to have a better pitching staff, with the addition of Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke, and all will be forgiven if the Red Sox, can surpass the Yankees and conquer the Curse of the Bambino. But if A-Rod thrives in New York, the Red Sox will be forever second-guessed for not pulling the trigger on a trade with Texas -- as they have been second-guessed for more than three-quarters of a century for dealing Babe Ruth. If Rodriguez continues his current rate of production, the Red Sox may be guilty of squandering two of the four greatest home run hitters in history. Everything the Red Sox do this season -- and everything they don't do -- will be viewed through an A-Rod prism, and an ownership which had built enormous credibility with Boston fans could lose all of it if the Yankees win. The stakes have never been higher in this rivalry, with the two teams throwing in more than $300 million to this high-stakes game. As the pressure mounts, there will be a meltdown, in Boston, or in the Bronx.
posted by dusted at 11:58 AM on February 15, 2004
The Times has a decent piece on why A-Rod is more interested in NYC than BOS.
posted by billsaysthis at 12:48 PM on February 15, 2004
why A-Rod is more interested in NYC than BOS Not a particularly relevant emotion is it? Where Texas wants him to go counts a lot more. 'Cause remember how much more A-Rod wanted to play in Boston than Texas?
posted by yerfatma at 01:31 PM on February 15, 2004
As a Blue Jay fan, this excites me beyond belief. The chance to see ARod play more often is a good thing. The cold-war mentality of NYvsBOS is excellent for sports stories. And how truly wonderful it would be to see NEITHER of those teams win the division or World Series...
posted by grum@work at 02:12 PM on February 15, 2004
the Yankees just have too many gaping holes in their lineup... Without at least one quality left handed starter in the rotation, I don't see the Yanks making it past the Divisional round of the playoffs. Aside from 2nd base, there isn't a hole of any kind, let alone a gaping one. The only question marks are the health of Leiber and Brown, and I think they'll both be just fine. This division is going to come down to little things like health - if all the Yankee pitchers stay healthy, I think the Yankees are better than the Sox 1-5. But they're also more likely to break down, so we'll see. The Sox don't have a lefty starter either. In fact, Lilly is the only one in the division, and Mulder and Zito are the only two decent ones on any contender. The lefty thing is overrated. It'd be nice to have, sure, but ultimately, if you have 4 great pitchers in the post season, it shouldn't matter what hand they are. And if Vasquez doesn't wilt under the lights, he'll put up better numbers than Pettitte anyway. I miss Andy, but they've more than adequately replaced him. You and the rest of NYC. Which is why people love Yankee fans so much. What on earth makes this team likely to win 120 games in your mind? Well that was sort of a joke but then again, I'm irrationally angry whenever any of my teams in any sport (including the Islanders, who suck) lose any game. But when you have a 3-4-5 built of guys who consistently put up 1.000 OPS and a 2-6-7-8 of 8-900 guys, you're looking good, even if Brown goes down and DePaula comes in and posts a 5 ERA. While I think they wasted their effort and money on Lofton and overpaid some relievers, they did get solid players in all cases. There are enough excellent relievers in there to eliminate last season's biggest problem (well, that, and Weaver), and the offense has been significantly upgraded. Against righties Lofton is still useful as a leadoff guy (though I'd still rather have Jeter+ Bernie at 1-2), and against lefties Bernie can man center and Lee can play first - he hits lefties well. Think of the runs a lineup like
| Jeter Williams Rodriguez Giambi Sheffield Posada Matsui Lee Lamb | Lofton Jeter Rodriguez Giambi Sheffield Williams Posada Matsui Lamb |
posted by Bernreuther at 02:28 PM on February 15, 2004
So is this thing 100% done?
posted by dusted at 02:45 PM on February 15, 2004
Selig has to sign off on it, the union, and he teams have worked it all out, Bud signs off on it and the evil empire wins another round in the war with the Sox.
posted by jbou at 02:58 PM on February 15, 2004
This is so incredulous I can't keep myself from laughing. It makes so little sense, but at the same time it makes perfect sense. I agree, though, that if Jeter doesn't willingly move to 2nd or 3rd, he no longer deserves the mantle of "captain."
posted by rocketman at 03:17 PM on February 15, 2004
First I was thinking Jeter should go to third, but the more I think about it the more I think 2nd is good- he'd still get to turn DPs, which would make him feel more useful, plus a Rodriguez-Jeter DP combo is more memorable (and marketable) than Tinkers-Evers-Chance and Trammel-Whittaker. I just hope he gives it a try and isn't selfish about it.
posted by Bernreuther at 03:23 PM on February 15, 2004
Bud signs off on it and the evil empire wins another round in the war with the Sox. Actually no. If at the end of the season the yankees are on top, then sure. The game isn't played on paper, no matter how we look at the lineups. And if the yankees don't win the world series? That will be so beautiful to watch. (and no way in hell they win 120) If the yankees win, well, they were suppose to win. If they lose... I'd much rather be the underdog, and now we are. Can't wait until opening day.
posted by justgary at 03:49 PM on February 15, 2004
am I allowed to say this is a non-issue with me and a lot of people I've been talking to around here? Don't believe the media hype -- we're not dying in Boston about this. ARod into that team does not guarantee a championship. It wasn't so long ago that the Mariners had [younger] ARod, Randy Johnson, Griffey and Edgar Martinez and they didn't win anything. And as much as some Yankee fans around here and otherwise would like to believe, I'm not totally shattered by this. Boston tried like hell to get ARod, they didn't. He wanted to come here, it just couldn't get done. Now that it's said and done, and there's some distance between December and now, I like that the Red Sox show some restraint in finances, even if it means walking away from ARod. I don't know if it's good for baseball, having the team salary reach nearly 200m and basically just... getting everyone. I wonder if baseball can ever adopt a salary cap. The Yankee salary this year may point out the problems with the luxury tax. I don't know if it's a good deal for the yankees. is there such a thing as a bad deal for the yankees with all that money? If they win, it will be noted that they spent all that money and bought the talent. If they lose, it will be noted that they spent all that money, bought the talent and still fell on their face. i don't know. what i do know is they got rid of soriano, as impatient as he can be at the plate, had numbers not so different from ARods last year. Another thing Soriano was was the last bargaining chip, in my opinion. Sori would have been that security chip at the trade deadline should pitching need help anywhere or specifically, if Kevin Brown's back/shoulder/leg/whatever the hell ails him went out. As far as I've researched, the farm system is tapped and they don't have much of a bench. it does say a lot about ARod wanting out of Texas. Just a few short weeks ago, he was thankful for being named team captain, declaring he was looking forward to playing the 04 season in Texas. On the comedy end, the minute I heard this, I remembered back to that Onion article. I went and checked it out. The ironic and timely opening line: "With a week to go before pitchers and catchers report for spring training, the New York Yankees shored up their pitching, hitting, and defense Monday by signing every player in professional baseball."
posted by jerseygirl at 04:29 PM on February 15, 2004
JG, I think many of your points about the Yankees are valid, regarding expectations, rationalizations, and especially the farm system and the bench. But don't tell me you're not just a little bit sore about this. You were as psyched as anyone I'd read/talked to about A-Rod to BoSox, and I'd be mighty surprised if you weren't just a tad jealous. That said, right now I'm leading the Yankees 22-2 in the bottom of the 5th, as the Brewers in 1987's MLB baseball for the NES. So anything can happen.
posted by rocketman at 04:39 PM on February 15, 2004
I gotta disagree with jerseygirl. I'm dying. I'm pissed off. I think it's bad for baseball; I think it is, in fact, ludicrous. I'm also horrendously jealous. Stupid Steinbrenner. If the Yankees win, I will sulkily say "well, they bought it." If they lose, I will gloat. I admit it all.
posted by Bryant at 04:45 PM on February 15, 2004
plus a Rodriguez-Jeter DP combo is more memorable mmm... Rodriguez-Jeter DP combo
posted by goddam at 04:46 PM on February 15, 2004
Also, let me go on record right now saying that I don't think the Yankees are necessarily the favorite for a championship this year.
posted by rocketman at 04:47 PM on February 15, 2004
neither do I, Rocketman. And that is why I think there's nothing wrong with baseball. A team that star studded isn't even a lock for its own division. There are a lot of great teams out there, and this will be an excellent season.
posted by Bernreuther at 05:30 PM on February 15, 2004
mmm... Rodriguez-Jeter DP combo Well, that would make for another Out cover story, wouldn't it? Who is the WS favorite if not the Yankees?
posted by yerfatma at 05:39 PM on February 15, 2004
somethings wrong with my grapes.
posted by forksclovetofu at 05:54 PM on February 15, 2004
A team that star studded isn't even a lock for its own division. No, but they are most certainly the favorite. If they aren't, who is?
posted by dusted at 06:50 PM on February 15, 2004
well a lot of "experts" are still picking the Sox based on pitching.
posted by Bernreuther at 08:35 PM on February 15, 2004
Well. We will see, that's for sure. Still, I don't think anyone would deny this is pretty exciting.
posted by rocketman at 08:43 PM on February 15, 2004
All I'm saying is that when the Yankees have lost the past three years (one of which they didn't even make the WS), with the talent they've had, you just can't count on them to make it happen. They looked vulnerable all through the playoffs last year, and the pitching changes in the offseason haven't brought the unanimous acclaims of "toughest rotation in baseball" like they once did. A-Rod giving up SS for 3rd - and especially if Jeter remains at SS - will be clubhouse poison. With some of the older, injury-prone veterans they have, *plus* giving up Soriano, a few untimely injuries would ruin their season.
posted by rocketman at 08:48 PM on February 15, 2004
jealous and sore are two different things. if the yankees landed anyone good, i'd be jealous. although, i admit, no one they landed this offseason has provoked that out of me thus far. and i don't know if i am even jealous of them getting ARod. Surprised? Yep. Jealous? I don't know. Getting him to Boston was a complicated issue, financials aside. sore... i really don't feel it. i guess that seems to be a surprise because everyone thinks i should be or a red sox fan should be. my initial reaction last night when i found out was "no fucking way!" -- verbatim i think. And then I start thinking about it when i got up this morning. i began analyzing the personalities involved in the NY clubhouse, the possible outcomes, thinking critically and unemotionally and I am okay with not having ARod in Boston. Maybe it's because there's been some time between the Red Sox dealings and the Yankee signing. Maybe it's because I had been thinking analytically already about the team we have now and be thankful for it, proud and confident of it. I can feel it already with this Yankee signing, there's more blood in the water now; the hunger for baseball is back and is slowly thawing out this Boston winter again. I can't wait to be right back into the passion of it all like I was last year and it will be a good time just like last year ultimately was despite of the outcome. It's going to be a great season and I can't wait to see that Fenway green paint again in person.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:15 PM on February 15, 2004
Some fun facts and random ponderings about ARod in NY that I've been gathering from different sources as I am reading everything (sosh, articles, etc) -The Yankees have an all right-handed rotation for the first time since 1992. New York hasn't won the AL pennant without a lefty starter since 1947. - last year arod had 7 more hrs and 27 more rbis than soriano...and about 30 less stolen bases. - How would you like to be Joe Torre this season? If the team gets swept in a series, you have to be screening your calls and letting the machine get it. If the team slips out of first place, you probably start wearing little disguises as you walk past George's office. All that, plus any clubhouse stuff that arises from the pressure and the high-maintenance guys like Brown and Sheffield. I hope when he leaves the Yankees, Joe Torre writes a huge tell-all book. - How about Jeter? He fucks anything up, there's going to be a lot of "ARod would have got that!" with the press and the fans. There's an opportunity of Jan Brady Syndrome developing if I ever saw one.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:33 PM on February 15, 2004
The only people who really know what's going to happen with a SS/3B controversy are Jeter and ARod. For all we know, they already talked about it and Jeter will step aside voluntarily and happily. If they truly are friends then it shouldn't matter and they should be happy to be leading a great team. if those two get along, then the clubhouse could be quite the opposite of what everyone seems to think it will be. I'll be very disappointed if Jeter doesn't move. Hopefully he'll do the right thing. ARod had 7 more homers and 27 more RBIs, but without looking I'm pretty sure he also had about 150 points on him in the OPS department, and many fewer strikeouts. he was also hitting without protection in the lineup. He's also good in the field, and last year counted as a down year for him, despite the MVP honor. I can only hope that George just sits back and watches this year. If Cashman and his advisors/staff have any influence over him he'll just let the manager and team be. Bringing in a guy like this should make everyone on this team excited and glad to be there, which is good for team chemistry... only he can screw that up. People seem to think it likely that George will fire Torre. All the ESPN writers think he'd do it as a display of power. But I think even he's aware of the fact that doing that would piss off the entire team and screw everything up. He'd never fire Torre. And if he's wise he'd leave him alone entirely.
posted by Bernreuther at 10:04 PM on February 15, 2004
what if Jeter doesn't move? How will you feel about it then? if Jeter and ARod get along, then Kevin Brown won't display any of his notorious attitude? Sheffield won't find something to bitch about? The thing about the high-maintanance guys, they don't care if everyone else is holding hands and singing kumbaya. Sheff and Brown are historical and notorious charm-less guys. just curious. not poking at or provoking you.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:26 PM on February 15, 2004
The only thing that matters is getting to the playoffs. The Yankees with or without A-Rod make the playoffs. The Sox will make the playoffs. Then it comes down to seven simple games. In seven games you can toss out everything and place your bets without historical bias. And I sure like the tandem of Schilling and Martinez to end out on top.
posted by vito90 at 10:38 PM on February 15, 2004
sure you aren't poking, just bow down to the evil empire jersey.
posted by jbou at 10:39 PM on February 15, 2004
I'm not poking, I know Bern knows that. Bow down to the Yankees? I'd sooner eat my car, piece by piece, and then wash it down with the full tank of gas. :)
posted by jerseygirl at 10:44 PM on February 15, 2004
Team chemistry assumptions are probably the least accurate assumptions possible. Just ask Lawyer Malloy. Maybe A-Rod and Jeter want to throttle each other, and spend their days pouting. Or maybe the presence of a younger, equally pretty player who's better on both offense and defense compels Jeter to reverse his agonizingly slow decline behind the plate. Roll the dice.
posted by dzot at 11:36 PM on February 15, 2004
Brown and Sheffield's reps are overrated. Sheff was a whiner on bad teams, and everyone in Atlanta loved him. He'll be great in NY. He's ecstatic to be there. Brown was unhappy on bad teams and hates to lose. I'll take that any time. We all loved our last water cooler basher, Paul ONeill. Moose isn't what you'd call charming either. he's surly and competitive. I think ARod will probably be the biggest risk, chemistry-wise. Before this trade (and it's hard to believe I've forgotten this) I didn't like him at all, thought he was selfish and childish sometimes, and that he deserved to rot in Texas with only his money to keep him company. Perhaps I overdid it with the hatred (as I usually do) but he still worries me more than the other players everyone seems to think are jerks. Lofton might whine too, if Torre does the right thing and lets him sit a lot. But that'll be minor, Mondesi-level, at worst. But I think what you'll see is a team that appreciates the fact that it's basically an all-star squad, and they'll be surprisingly loose. Untill they go on their first 3 game losing streak and the Boss opens his fat mouth, that is. I'll put the tandem of Mussina and Brown up against Pedro and Schilling every time,considering the rest of the staffs as well. The Yankees match up with the Sox just fine in a 7 game series. Here's another question: is there anyone that can contend for the wild card? I don't think Toronto can keep up, obviously, and I think Seattle actually got worse. Oakland is probably going to be about the same, Anaheim got quite a bit better, and there's noone in the central. This might be the first year without any kind of a wild card race.
posted by Bernreuther at 12:27 AM on February 16, 2004
posted by forksclovetofu at 02:33 AM on February 16, 2004
Not to ruin the DP fantasy for garfield, but Jeter at second is almost as bad as Jeter at SS. It's not as much of a problem, but lack of range at second is still bad (see: Walker, Todd), especially when coupled with a lack of range at 1B (see Giambi, Either). As if it matters: A-Rod is a huge improvement over Soriano offensively, even with Soriano's power and stolen bases. Not even close.
posted by yerfatma at 06:40 AM on February 16, 2004
i seriously still can not believe the yanks grabbed arod out thin air. it's ridiculous. crazy! as much as everyone is worried about the chemistry on the field, i really don't see that big of a deal. if this yanks lineup all has down years or below their averages they still will be better then last year on the offense side. these guys added sheff AND arod!?!?!?! and ditched, what IMHO, was the biggest wrong in the lineup by throwing soriano's strikeouts out of the leadoff spot. the yanks are playing fantasy baseball and all the other teams have to check their wallets to play....as much as i hate the yankees....i mean HATE the yankees...it was only 2 months ago that people were saying that king george had lost his mind again....2 months later the guy looks like a genius and this lineup will have every pitcher in MLB shaking in their boots before they even take the field. i can see schilling pulling his hair out thinking about a jeter, arod, giambi, sheff, posada, bernie punch that just can't be pitched around. that's really scary. there's a lesson here for the sox front office, for 15 million more this could have been avoided. if the sox want to play hardball in an off season coldwar they better be ready to have their cash speak just as loud as their brains. as much as sympathize with any sox fan that says this isn't a big deal....i ain't buying that. mets fans know better. we were supposed to have arod in the first place. and we know when the front office lets the fans down. obviously health is an issue for every team....the yanks need to keep the pitching healthy and i just don't see how this team doesn't roll over the entire AL East. i'll be rooting for the sox, but the improvements made by the yanks are too much to ignore and i think the challenge facing torre this year will re-invigorate him after being bored the last couple of years.... sad to say....but i plan on catchin some yank games at the stadium this year. king george has once again cut into my mets season ticket budget and i just can't pass up seeing this yankee team. it's seriously the eighth wonder of the world.
posted by oliver_crunk at 07:35 AM on February 16, 2004
ARod into that team does not guarantee a championship. It wasn't so long ago that the Mariners had [younger] ARod, Randy Johnson, Griffey and Edgar Martinez and they didn't win anything. Nothing can guarantee a championship, true.. But if having Arod in your lineup isn't that big a deal, why was everyone in Boston wetting themselves over the prospect a few months ago? What killed the Yankees in the playoffs and WS last year was an utter lack of timely hitting. They left way too many men on base thanks in large part to Boone and Soriano being automatic outs. Arod is just another hitter they've added to counter this. If they win, it will be noted that they spent all that money and bought the talent. Will there be an asterix in the record books? People already knock the Yankees for spending so much on payroll. what i do know is they got rid of soriano, as impatient as he can be at the plate, had numbers not so different from ARods last year. So it's a wash? Boston was going to lose Manny AND Nomar to get Arod in the lineup and the contention was that they'd still be better off with Arod.
posted by crank at 07:47 AM on February 16, 2004
To get the Soxers here gnashing the teeth a bit harder, here's Times article that shows that Arod is actually only raise the Yanks payroll just a touch under $800,000 this year.....Yankee ingenuity strikes again!
posted by NYSSoftballBlue at 08:36 AM on February 16, 2004
*sigh* My brother (MY BROTHER, who HATES baseball and might be likely to think "fungo" is a new athlete's-foot powder) broke the news to me yesterday morning. I flipped on one of my hotel room's two televisions (swanky, huh?) and sat slack-jawed as ESPN ran down the deal. These are the salient points I could write down before I bit my pencil in half: 1) Could someone please, please admit that the current financial structure of baseball is irrational for true competition? Sure, $200M doesn't buy you a championship. But it sure as hell buys you a lot of division championships, doesn't it? Those are pretty much necessary to have a chance to win it all. What chance have other teams in the AL East had? The Yankees have bought off at least a trip to the postseason again, and for those who would argue that, please go back and check out the standings for the past 10 years or so. If you're the Detroit Tigers, do you just call in sick for eternity? Why get better? 2) I guess it's true, but I find it somewhat difficult to grasp that Texas somehow benefits from this trade while still being on the hook for $67M. If that's "financial flexibility," I need Tom Hicks to start balancing my checkbook. 3) Derek Jeter has to move to second base. ARod is by far the better defensive SS, and I just don't see Derek sticking his mug in front of a wicked two-hop shot in front of the bag.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:06 AM on February 16, 2004
Sumbitch. The Red Sox offered to take the full contract. Can't blame John Hart for taking the better offer, though.
posted by Bryant at 09:09 AM on February 16, 2004
Bryant, I was just about to link that article. Crushing.
posted by djacobs at 09:46 AM on February 16, 2004
there's a lesson here for the sox front office, for 15 million more this could have been avoided. if the sox want to play hardball in an off season coldwar they better be ready to have their cash speak just as loud as their brains. because they had a budget, because they have financial limits (unlike the Yankees) they can't play hardball? So every team should start spening 200m otherwise they aren't serious about getting anywhere? If the Red Sox went way above and beyond the rest of the high spending pack (Dodgers, Mets, etc) , they'd be chastised like the Yankees are by everyone. If they don't, they are chastised for... having limits? So it's a wash? Boston was going to lose Manny AND Nomar to get Arod in the lineup and the contention was that they'd still be better off with Arod. This is exactly what people don't get about the Boston deal. Your wrong if you thought that they were going to trade Manny for ARod and then put Nomar in a blue recycle bin and leave him out on the curb for the trash pickup on the corner of Van Ness and Yawkey. Nomar was going to be spun around for a PTBN in another trade (it looked to be Ordonez, but there was no real guarantee on that). Would Ordonez + ARod = Manny + Nomar? Many thought it would be just about a wash... on the field. And improvement off field and there's another story. Thats all covered in the initial threads about the transaction. To get the Soxers here gnashing the teeth a bit harder, here's Times article that shows that Arod is actually only raise the Yanks payroll just a touch under $800,000 this year.....Yankee ingenuity strikes again! Actually seems more like luck, coincidence and an unending pile of cash over ingenuity. IIRC, the decision to stop playing baseball was Henson's, not the Yankees. Good luck with the gnashing of the teeth quest, looks like you've got a full time job going on there. Sumbitch. The Red Sox offered to take the full contract. interesting find! i am going to find more sources to substantiate it though.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:51 AM on February 16, 2004
because they had a budget, because they have financial limits (unlike the Yankees) they can't play hardball? So every team should start spening 200m otherwise they aren't serious about getting anywhere? If the Red Sox went way above and beyond the rest of the high spending pack (Dodgers, Mets, etc) , they'd be chastised like the Yankees are by everyone. If they don't, they are chastised for... having limits? i don't think that's my point at all. my point is, if the sox were serious about getting arod they knew that any sort of a substantial reduction in salary was never going to get approved, if they wanted him they had to play hardball and suck it up. they had to take on the extra 15 mill or so that was obviously beyond it's budget. good on them for staying within their means, but the consequence was unforseen and large. it's the equivelent to the sox missing an open court lay-up and the yanks coming down the court and hitting a three for a 5 point swing. what initally looked like a missed oppurtunity to score turned into a much larger deficit and consequence. if the sox wanted to get arod so bad this is what the price would be and they shouldn't tease fans by trying to pull off what was never going to happen.... and i sympathize with this as a mets fan. the same thing happens every year. the mets threw their names into the vlad sweepstakes at the last minute as they did with arod and others only to not be at all serious about what it would take to get it done. if the sox couldn't afford the guy in the first place they shouldn't have acted like they could play hardball. and that's why it stings more and should be a lesson learned for future moves.
posted by oliver_crunk at 10:27 AM on February 16, 2004
Sometimes I don't care for him much, but Jim Caple's Page 2 take on all this is pretty funny.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:20 AM on February 16, 2004
Maddux up next for the Yankees?
posted by yerfatma at 11:22 AM on February 16, 2004
I thought Maddux was totally opposed to the AL?
posted by jerseygirl at 11:28 AM on February 16, 2004
I don't think Maddux knows his ass from a hole in the ground at this point. Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa seemed completely perplexed as to what Maddux (and his a-hole agent Scott Boras) were doing when he was asked whether Greg would be coming to St. Louis. I think the Dodgers are still a big possibility.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:48 AM on February 16, 2004
How dumb were the Texas Rangers in making this deal? According to the boys at Baseball Prospectus, really dumb. While it says "premium" in the URL, it's actually a free article.
posted by grum@work at 12:22 PM on February 16, 2004
if the sox couldn't afford the guy in the first place they shouldn't have acted like they could play hardball. They didn't know they couldn't. Surely you aren't saying the Sox shouldn't try and make deals unless they're 100% confident of the outcome? It's not as if the Sox were a mile off.
posted by Bryant at 12:35 PM on February 16, 2004
They didn't know they couldn't. Surely you aren't saying the Sox shouldn't try and make deals unless they're 100% confident of the outcome? uh...yes....they had an agreement with arod/texas that wasn't within the rules. seems fairly reasonable to say that if they wanted him they could have structured the deal so as to insure that they could dictate the outcome and not give the MLBPA the benefit of the doubt. i don't buy for one minute that they didn't know they couldn't. a signifignat devalue of arod's contract was sure to draw the unions ire, it was well reported in the press before it even got that far. my point is if they wanted to seal the deal they could have taken on the contract....which apparently they weren't willing to do....so why bother in the first place?
posted by oliver_crunk at 12:47 PM on February 16, 2004
I'm curious to know what goddam meant by DP whatever you think i meant by it, you're probably right.
posted by goddam at 01:35 PM on February 16, 2004
wow, I wrote a really long reply here and just came back to see if I had replies, and it turns out I previewed but never submitted. Great. It ranted about this being the first deal this winter where the Yankees actually got a good deal and didn't overpay, yet this is the one that draws the most ire about buying championships. Also, we should pat Cashman on the back and stop blaming Steinbrenner, because Cash did a brilliant job doing this, doing it quickly, and getting money out of the Rangers somehow. Can you imagine the Boss's face when Cash walked in and said "so... want to trade Sori and PTBN for ARod and 67 mill?" This wasn't a deal George drove like the [overpayment for] Sheff and Lofton and Clark. This was a good, smart deal, which really only raises their spending by 800k. Good for Cashman. In other news, the Dodgers got Depodesta - maybe next offseason when they haven't missed the boat they'll become good again.
posted by Bernreuther at 01:46 PM on February 16, 2004
it's seriously the eighth wonder of the world. Heh, are you serious? You're not really don king are you? :)From adding one player, albeit the best in the game, they went from fighting the red sox to the eighth wonder of the world? A team that was truly the 'eighth wonder of the world' would surely be a lock, and the yankees have too many questions. But if George actually has ny fans filled with such bombastic views of this team, he's already won financially, if not on the field. if the sox want to play hardball in an off season coldwar they better be ready to have their cash speak just as loud as their brains. as much as sympathize with any sox fan that says this isn't a big deal....i ain't buying that. I don't get the whole attitude that they yankees 'won'. The yankees have won nothing. With the attitude most people seem to have let's not even play the games. Let's just give the ws to the yankees now. And here's one redsox fan who will tell you its not big deal. I'd rather have schilling than arod. Now if arod leads the yanks to a ws victory, I may have to revaluate my position :) Boston was going to lose Manny AND Nomar to get Arod in the lineup and the contention was that they'd still be better off with Arod. Actually there was quite a bit of debate on espn and here regarding what the redsox actually would gain/lose through the trade, with opinions on both sides.
posted by justgary at 02:40 PM on February 16, 2004
Definitely justgary, you hit it right on the head. If there was a choice in off-season acquisitions, pitching over offense all the way. If the Red Sox did nothing in the off season, and still couldn't get the ARod deal done, you bet I'd be pretty sore about the whole offseason. But we signed Curt Schilling and Kevin Foulke. Curt Schilling and Kevin Foulke! The pitching, IMO, has a slight edge over the Yankees and our bench is better. It's going to be a dogfight of a season and I can't wait. [ESPN Insider article removed by rcade]
posted by jerseygirl at 02:49 PM on February 16, 2004
I also [half-assedly] heard a number about Boone + Soriano > ARod + Wilson. Discuss.
posted by jerseygirl at 02:56 PM on February 16, 2004
oh please.... i know it doesn't guarentee a title....but you have to admit that it's an interesting team with all the additions. it is the eight wonder of world with the press the way it is in NYC and the backpage will be broiling with all sorts of arod/jeter drama....let alone all the other 'bad apples' sheff, brown et al on the yanks and from where i sit out at shea it seems a helluva lot more interesting and wild then mike cameron and matsui. it's still sour grapes for the sox fans....i'm sorry, i'm just not buying that this doesn't sting every sox fan in sox nation. the same spofi'ers that were so gung ho about getting arod are now using the same numbers to prove that he doesn't mean much....give me a break...do we have to go to the archive and dig out all the sox/arod posts and prove this. the sox wanted him bad....and how ironic it is that the dude winds up on the yankees... i'm a met fan and i'm going to give the george support for just putting the team on the field....and i have a feeling if the shoe was on the other foot we wouldn't be hearing about it....we'd be hearing about how the red sox won the hot stove this winter.
posted by oliver_crunk at 03:08 PM on February 16, 2004
From ESPN Insider: Rodriguez doesn't guarantee title By Jim Baker, MLB Insider Monday, February 16 Um...I don't think you should be cut/pasting entire articles from a "premium" section of ESPN. I'm pretty sure that's a big no-no in terms of copyright. To make sure SportsFilter doesn't get in trouble, I'd recommend that the Panthenon delete your post. It's nothing against you or your point of view, JG. It's just something we shouldn't have on our favourite site.
posted by grum@work at 03:38 PM on February 16, 2004
uh...yes....they had an agreement with arod/texas that wasn't within the rules. But they were not certain of that until they checked. They thought the restructuring might be OK with the union. It's not like the rule is black and white -- it's a judgment call on the part of the union. seems fairly reasonable to say that if they wanted him they could have structured the deal so as to insure that they could dictate the outcome and not give the MLBPA the benefit of the doubt. Sure. But again, it's not black and white. Maybe they wanted him enough to make the offer they made, but not enough to make the higher offer. my point is if they wanted to seal the deal they could have taken on the contract....which apparently they weren't willing to do....so why bother in the first place? OK. I want to buy your house. I know that if I offer you a million bucks for the house, you'll take it... but the house clearly isn't worth a million bucks to me. So I think about it a little, and I offer you $700,000. I know you might not take the deal, but I also know you might just take it. There's a chance -- maybe it's 50/50, maybe it's only a 30% chance, but there's a decent chance. You decide not to take it. No harm, no foul. But that's why bother -- because I think there's a decent chance. The Red Sox thought there was a decent chance to land A-Rod. Egos and emotion got in the way, which is sad, but your argument only makes sense if you believe it was clear that their offer wouldn't work. And I don't believe that.
posted by Bryant at 03:53 PM on February 16, 2004
it's still sour grapes for the sox fans....i'm sorry, i'm just not buying that this doesn't sting every sox fan in sox nation. the same spofi'ers that were so gung ho about getting arod are now using the same numbers to prove that he doesn't mean much....give me a break...do we have to go to the archive and dig out all the sox/arod posts and prove this. Because redsox fans were gungho about a trade that never happened it equates to sour grapes regarding our attitude now? Things change. And if you look at those old threads, not only here but elsewhere, you'll find redsox fans were debating A-rods impact as well as having to give up Nomar. Having arod did not make us a lock, nor does it make the yankees a lock. I want to see the redsox win. If its with nomar instead of arod it'll be that much sweeter. Does it sting? Sure. Does it make you shake your head? Yep. Does it make me look forward to the season even more? You bet. I hate when people use the "you wouldn't understand line" but really, if you think for the majority of redsox fans this will make a difference you "don't understand". After going through the mets/sox series, Clemens, last year, this is childs play! We're redsox fans ;) Worse things have happened. Its over, but we haven't lost a single game yet. Bring on the season.
posted by justgary at 04:04 PM on February 16, 2004
You're probably right Grum. Didn't think much of it at the time, I've seen stuff like that pasted elsewhere so I didn't give it second thought. Delete away please. It's on ESPN insider for those who want to read it. If you can't, tough bananas. it's still sour grapes for the sox fans....i'm sorry, i'm just not buying that this doesn't sting every sox fan in sox nation. the same spofi'ers that were so gung ho about getting arod are now using the same numbers to prove that he doesn't mean much....give me a break...do we have to go to the archive and dig out all the sox/arod posts and prove this. How do I put this... succinctly. I find it interesting that you basically call me, and anyone who doesn't want to throw themselves off the Tobin Bridge over this a liar. Hell yes I wanted ARod here initially. I think that's pretty obvious. It didn't work out. Believe it or not, after it all went down, I didn't set up some ARod shrine lighting candles and saying novenas. It popped up again in weird places (video games and jerseys and odd little rumors) but it never got to the frenzied pace of November and December. This doesn't mean that I sat here dreamy eyed waiting for him to save the whole franchise after both teams called it off I'm sorry I didn't post here the minute I started thinking differently about the ARod trade or even changed my opinion. I don't know why you feel the need to fight what people are saying. I can talk and talk and talk, but you've obviously got in it you to paint a sentiment onto the Red Sox fans regardless of what people are explaining repeatedly to you otherwise. I'm wasting my time here clearly.
posted by jerseygirl at 04:15 PM on February 16, 2004
relax....you're all over-reacting. and i'm sorry if it's coming off like a 'fight'...i certainly don't take it like that. it's a goddamn internet message board. all i think is that the trade stings sox fans and judging by the responses that appears to be true. hell, it stings me just because the mets should have had him in the first place.
posted by oliver_crunk at 05:24 PM on February 16, 2004
I would think, jgirl, the fact that you've posted 10 times in this thread would mean that you (and, by extension, Sox fans) have been "stung" by this a little. Impassioned writing starts with passion, right? What's so bad about admitting that it's maddeding and a little heartwreching? If you WEREN'T at least a little pissed and jealous about losing the best player in the game to your hated rivals, I'd ask you to go lie down with a cold compress. I know I would if a deal was basically in place to bring Barry "BigHead" Bonds to the Cards, and then it fell apart and he landed with the Cubs. In short — it's OK to be envious of the Evil Empire. We all are, to some extent. We just don't have to get past them to get out of the division is all, so we have a little distance. For God's sake, though ... I'm in southern Indiana and I'M pissed off. I hate those bastards!
posted by wfrazerjr at 05:59 PM on February 16, 2004
what the fuck. really.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:05 PM on February 16, 2004
posted by yerfatma at 06:14 PM on February 16, 2004
Its gettin hot in here so take off all your clothes I am gettin so hot, I wanna take my clothes off.
posted by dusted at 06:24 PM on February 16, 2004
geez, what'd I say?
posted by wfrazerjr at 06:25 PM on February 16, 2004
I would think, jgirl, the fact that you've posted 10 times in this thread would mean that you (and, by extension, Sox fans) have been "stung" by this a little. That's really neither here nor there. Jgirl would post 10 times in a thread on the new sox batboy ;) She's a red sox fan! Sure it stings a little. I don't think anyone's denying that fact. But the whole trade debacle happened a while ago, and the red sox lineup has been minus a-rod for a while now. Speaking for myself it was much worse before christmas. So what does this do? It makes my hatred for the yankees grow even larger, and the thought of beating them now even sweeter. It won't be easy, but with the red sox nothing is.
posted by justgary at 06:39 PM on February 16, 2004
Sampling: Some inductive arguments are based on the collection of particular data directly relevant to your premise. For example, the statement “4 out of 5 dentists recommend this gum” suggests the following logical inference: 1) dentists are reliable sources on the subject of gum; 2) 80% is a high statistical value; therefore 3) I should buy this gum. Sampling: Some inductive arguments are based on the collection of particular data directly relevant to your premise. For example, the statement, “There are 43 pages worth of posts of the SOSH web site about a trade not involving the Red Sox” suggests the following logical inference: 1) SOSH is a reliable source on the subject of Red Sox fans; 2) 43 pages is a high statistical value; therefore 3) Red Sox fans are stung.
posted by wfrazerjr at 06:41 PM on February 16, 2004
I wasn't trying to be snarky. I think I'll just go home and soak my head.
posted by wfrazerjr at 06:44 PM on February 16, 2004
On the plus side, oh how sweet it will be if the Yanks don't win it all? Great if they don't make the Series but even better if they lose it again. 17 freaking All-Stars (number I heard on the radio, haven't fact checked it). That's just ludicrous, when are they gonna get the other 8?. Also, more I think on it and hear, the more I am sold on A-Rod at third. He's still better defensively than Jeter, but he has the pop as a hitter to be a (classic) 3B. Jeter would go from all-star SS to light hitting 3B. Jeter will jam his scapula diving dramatically for a routine ball or fall on his rear and break his thumb or somesuch and miss a month or two anyhow. Dual qualed A-Rod...roto gold.
posted by pivo at 06:53 PM on February 16, 2004
girl, i think my butt gettin big OH!
posted by forksclovetofu at 06:54 PM on February 16, 2004
Because I am simply actively participating in a Red Sox discussion, like I have with nearly every Red Sox discussion for the entire two years and two days I've been here, that implies I am stung? And because I did it, that means, by extension all other Red Sox fans are also feeling this underlying, denied, unrevealed "sting" of mine? Calling that logic fuzzy would be the greatest understatement of our generation. The grrrrrrrreatest! (go on and say that like Tony the Tiger, you'll be glad you did). I would be here if it was a discussion on using a new grass type at Fenway. Kentucky Blue? Ryegrass? I am all over it, let's talk field grass! Really, this shouldn't be news to you: It doesn't take much to engage me in a baseball conversation. I don't know what else to tell you except if that's anyone's thinking, because I am posting a lot that means I'm stung, you're wrong. Your assumptions are off and no matter what I am saying, you're either either spinning my actions and words to the contrary, implying otherwise or trying to convince me otherwise. It keeps coming down to this: You aren't listening to me. And if that's the case, I'm going to start a campaign of posting only Backstreet Boys lyrics. I'm afraid you've only brought this upon yourself. Seriously. I refuse to be cowed with a defeatist loser attitude because some people in here, the entirity of the media and other baseball fans alike, insist that's what I MUST do as a Red Sox fan. I should be crying. I should be calling off the season. I should be selling my tickets and tearing up my game jerseys. I should be wailing and cursing some chubby pitcher from 100 years ago. Fuck all of that. What I am realizing, and maybe I'm a bit slow at coming to it is, this is maybe how everyone (globally) wants Red Sox fans to be. We never win, so naturally, when anything remotely contrary happens, even peripherally around the team, people assume and insist the fans are immediately trying to figure out which way is the "right" way to slit their wrists - horizontally or vertically. And because I'm not destroyed by the Yankees getting ARod, it must be slightly taunting me. If not taunted, I must be stung. And if I am not stung, how about slightly chafed? Mildly irritated? I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the Red Sox are trotting out their best entire team (pitching, bullpen, offense, defense) in maybe a century -- with or without ARod -- and focus on a two month old deal that just couldn't get worked out when the day was done. Yes, he went to the arch rivals and he's the best player in the league, arguably. It was a cool idea at the time, it had the city pretty fired up and excited, myself included. It just didn't happen and you know sometimes things don't happen for a reason. I can't waste my time and energy on the what-ifs. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to click on World's Tiniest Groom, hop on the elliptical, get my adreneline going, get the endorphins up and hope it all relieves my desire to kick someones ass.
posted by jerseygirl at 07:05 PM on February 16, 2004
I'm not denying Sox fans are "stung". It gave the weekend a funeral atmosphere for every fan I know. What I'm saying is that one passionate fan does not a reliable study make. Now that I think about it, what good is all the fame if you're not fucking the models?
posted by yerfatma at 07:06 PM on February 16, 2004
Actually, I was basing my observations both on this thread and SOSH and the comments there. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, I swear to God, and if it will keep me from having to read Backstreet Boys lyrics, I'm willing to have someone tattoo "Bill Buckner Rocks Ass" on my heiney. I believe I've also falsely created a link between volume of writing and level of emotional buy-in because that's the way I write. The more peeved or wound up I am, the more I tend to spout off about it, and perhaps I have attached that standard unfairly. But I still believe the sheer outpouring of verbiage from Red Sock nation means the trade touched a nerve. It doesn't have anything to do with fatalistic attitudes or dead sluggers. It has to do with what I would think every baseball fan would feel if a highly-charged and important deal fell through for his/her team and landed in the lap of an archrival — I think you'd be pissed off. That's the point I was trying to make, and I won't feel sorry for the attempt.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:29 PM on February 16, 2004
Boone + Soriano vs Wilson + ARod is not a valid comparison because we're not talking boone and sori, it's wilson and Sori. So the ARod side still wins. This is why I like this deal: ARod - Giambi - Sheffield That is SCARY. Even to the best pitcher in the world. Soriano - Giambi - Sheffield that just doesn't strike the same fear in the hearts. Soriano can be easily beaten by good pitching. That was made painfully obvious last post season. Even God would have a hard time getting through those guys 1-2-3. If Giambi is as good as we expect him to be this year, there is no margin for error there. Soriano is a great addition to Texas and is someone that any team would love to have, but I honestly don't miss him one bit. I think he's topped and won't really get any better. I don't think he's capable of laying off bad pitches... he didn't learn at all in 3 years, what would make him learn now? Meanwhile, give ARod that kind of protection, and he's going to destroy the ball. Those 3 right there are as great a murderer's row as the original. And on top of that you're sandwiching 3 other 100 RBI guys around them. Lay off JG, she's right - haven't you all noticed that she's a rational level-headed Sox fan who can see things for what they are? The facts dictate that ARod and Magglio vs. Manny and Nomar was a close battle, one that the Red Sox brass ultimately decided was not worth any more than what they were offering, and it was the right decision for their team. For the Yankees, this is an easy call, especially since it's not that much more expensive in the end. But anyway, I think a lot of RSN wants to kill themselves, but that's no different from an ordinary monday, and the level headed ones are still realistic about their chances. The more I hear on TV the more I notice that people were saying that the Sox dominated the offseason by getting Schilling and Foulke. How is that so much better than Brown, Vazquez, Gordon, Quantrill, Sheffield? Why is everyone so high on Foulke? Closers are overrated and he's only been good for a couple of years. A closer hardly makes them awesome. Schilling was the big prize, and he's old (like Brown). But old is no big deal for him, and as long as he's not hurt he's good for 200+ and 18 wins... and a load off of Pedro's shoulders.
posted by Bernreuther at 07:50 PM on February 16, 2004
jg: Sorry, I gotta agree with fraze. The lady doth protest too much. This is nothing personal; you're awfully bright, write intelligently and insightfully and post good links... like this one ("IT'S ALIVE!") and this one (" Did you know yesterday was the first day of winter? I didn't. I can tell you that ARod is a Leo and hits .316 off Tom Gordon, though. ") and this one( "There just has to be more going on than what the media is reporting and all of it makes things exciting, scary and compelling [at least to me]. I feel like I am signing a mortgage on a really spectacular expensive house that everyone raves about...") and this one ("Would I love to see Rodriguez knocking them into the monster seats for the home team? Yes, indeedy. Hell, I'm sitting here all smiley just thinking about it. "). We ARE listening JG, and given the nature of past posts (and this one: "naturally, my first inclination was to punch myself in the face, repeatedly.") it's only NATURAL that we would think you would be disappointed by this turn of events, regardless of anything you would say to the contrary. As for the terrible onus of being a Sox fan: Personally, I've NEVER seen a team I've rooted for win a championship in my adult life (I was a Bulls fan with my dad during the Michael years, but that was more of a father/son bonding attempt). I am neither a knee jerk overdog or underdog fan. I'm a lifelong non-baseball fan from a non-baseball state (Tennessee); I have NO preconceptions of "how everyone (globally) wants Red Sox fans to be". Heck, truth be told, I've learned everything I've ever KNOWN about the Sox since I met you, JG but I gotta tell you, what I've discovered is that Sox fans (some of them at least) are rabid, diehard and have no sense of humour about their team. The first two are attributes to be admired, the last not so much so. A spectacular player was going to go to the good guys but ended up going to the bad guys. That's a shitty situation if you're the good guys and you have my somewhat snarky condolences. But commentary like "No, it'll be more fun this way. This way, when we do win it all, and you all are out there flipping birds back and forth with Yankee fans, you'll be smiling a whole lot wider." is just BEGGING to get lanced. I dig that this all adds "blood to the water" but when there's a frenzy, bystanders get bit. In closing, I live my life the way I do to keep you comin' back to me. Everything I do is for you, so what is it that you can't see? Sometimes I wish I could turn back time, impossible as it may seem; but I wish I could so bad. You better quit playin' games with my heart.
posted by forksclovetofu at 08:39 PM on February 16, 2004
jg: Sorry, I gotta agree with fraze. The lady doth protest too much. it's only NATURAL that we would think you would be disappointed by this turn of events, regardless of anything you would say to the contrary. so from what i gather, despite it all, what it really boils down to is i'm basically... a liar... hey thanks. i tried to have a sense of humor about it, even that long last post was still a bit lighthearted, but at this point... i'm just done. i'm done explaining myself. i'm done defending myself. i'm fucking done, kids.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:52 PM on February 16, 2004
nothing wrong with cutting & pasting ESPN insider.
posted by djacobs at 09:05 PM on February 16, 2004
and have no sense of humour about their team We obviously hang out with different red sox fans. I mean, come on. How can you be a fan of this team year after year and not have a sense of humor? My father and I, god rest his soul, spent 26 years laughing/crying/rooting for the red sox. Believe me, take away the 'laughter' and doubt I could take rooting for the red sox without psychological help. Not that I haven't heard this stereotype time after time again, and I'm fully aware I'm a fool to even try and contradict your statement. After all, you can't disprove or prove it. This site makes me laugh every single day, regardless if the news is good or bad. I don't know of a red sox fan who doesn't read it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of fans creating a haiku site for red sox woes. Not to defend jgirl, because she doesn't need it, but pulling selective quotes from her history three months ago and not realizing her feelings might have changed is a little naive (assuming she's a human with emotions). And I'm not going to take the time to find quote after quote in response to forksclovetofu's post, but just clicking on ONE of his links I read this from jgirl: Not sure how I feel about it. I’ll really miss Nomar, and to an extent, wacky Manny. But… I’ll thoroughly enjoy having a player that wants to be a face for the team, who will talk to the media, will be out there meeting sponsors… if you have a player who does that, plus is spectacular on the field, the ridiculous contract doesn’t sting so much for the owners. Notice the "not sure how I feel about it" conveniently left out. Probably the hardest part of being a red sox fan is dealing with other fan's attitudes towards us. I agree with jgirl. Like some self fulfilling prophecy red sox fans are expected to be down on their team. If a ranger fan says they're ok with the deal, I certainly wouldn't doubt it. But a red sox fan says they're fine with a deal and people (instead of debating stats or some actual concrete discussion) just don't believe it. Because so and so knew a red sox fan waaay back when and this 'label' fits redsox fans to a tee. In one line a poster tells you all you want to know about redsox nation. We're red sox fans, and being ok when something doesn't go our way just has to make us miserable. After all, its easier to rely on stereotypes than dealing with the individual fan ;)
posted by justgary at 09:15 PM on February 16, 2004
If it makes anyone else feel better, all of us Mariner fans are shiftless liars. Well, except vito90. And every other Mariner fan except me. Seriously, you'd think we were hashing out prevarications in Iraq policy here. The Sox fans would've welcomed A-Rod into the fold; it didn't happen. He's gone to their arch-rivals, and they're a little bitter, but hopeful that an otherwise excellent Boston offseason heralds a great year. Why is this a problem for anybody? Hell, Bill Bavasi has totally hosed my team for this year and next year, and I'm optimistic for baseball. Slowly back away from the tar and feathers, and let's all smell that infield grass. Mmm, infield grass.
posted by jeffmshaw at 09:54 PM on February 16, 2004
aw fuck. twenty minutes later, I just erased my rebuttal. nevermind. I give up too. jg, no one's calling you a liar; i was calling you to task for what I thought was a not so nice response to frazer's innocuous comment. Those quotes were unedited gary, i'm not sure what you mean by conveniently left out. the "myth of the red sox fan without a sense of humour" is not one that I'm aware of. It's just my perception based on the fans that I've met on here and in real life. Sorry if it jibes with some sort of unfair stereotype. and that's it.
posted by forksclovetofu at 10:39 PM on February 16, 2004
I understand that it's a lousy argument until one of us is hoarse and has neck tendons bulging from ear to shirt collar, but Mefi is back up, so hopefully all the angst will migrate back to the blue. In the meantime, it's not backstreet, but I hope you'll indulge me. Sing along now! Mock (yeah) er (yeah) y (yeah) Yeah (yeah) Mock-er-y Now everybody did you see Steinbrenner make a mockery And when he starts to scream and yell Cashman signs old Toothless Wells And then if Boomer Wells can't play He steals Jeff Weaver the very next day That's why (yes indeed) he's gonna ruin the pastime Say yeah, yeah whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, oh Hear me now and understand He’s gonna buy every starter he can find While NL pitchers learn to bunt Yankee starters might work twice a month And if they cannot meet his plan He’ll buy a guy from Cuba or Japan And that's why (yes it is) he’s gonna ruin the game of baseball Say yeah, yeah whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, oh
posted by dusted at 12:09 AM on February 17, 2004
nothing wrong with cutting & pasting ESPN insider. Bzzt. Incorrect! It's copyrighted material. At the bottom of the teaser page for that article is the line: Copyright 2004 ESPN Internet Ventures. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed in any form. Then when you click on the "legal terms" link, you get a nice big legalese document that includes the following blurb: No material from any WDIG Site or any Internet site owned, operated, licensed, or controlled by us may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted, or distributed in any way, except that you may download one copy of the materials on any single computer for your personal, noncommercial home use only, provided that (i) you keep intact all copyright and other proprietary notices, (ii) you make no modifications to the materials, (iii) you do not use the materials in a manner that suggests an association with any of our products, services, or brands, and (iv) you do not download quantities of materials to a database that can be used to avoid future downloads from any WDIG Site. The use of any WDIG material on any other Web site or computer environment is prohibited. The post that contains the entire article breaks both requests; it's now on a database (SpoFi) that allows people to read it without downloading it from the original (pay) location, AND it's on a "web site or computer environment". Normally, you can quote small passages, but in this instance it was a complete cut/paste of the entire article. An article that was put in an area that was only available to people who pay a fee to ESPN/Disney. If the parent company of ESPN were to care about copyright infringement, it would be about something from which they normally make money.
posted by grum@work at 12:19 AM on February 17, 2004
Well, some people can be sticklers about copyright laws, but I and others who share my questionable morals will continue to encourage and/or do such things. Thank you to whoever pasted the article. On another note, I will be pissed if the Yankees waste money on Greg Maddux.
posted by Bernreuther at 07:47 AM on February 17, 2004
When I said: I'd be mighty surprised if you weren't just a tad jealous, I left open the possibility that I could be mighty surprised. And for the most part, I am. I think you're all being unfair to jerseygirl. I agree that she was probably protesting too much, but I think she probably isn't broken up about this. justgary probably put it better than I did. As a fan of one of the most storied losing traditions in baseball (hey, when was the last time Milwaukee even made the playoffs?!!!), I can see how others might think I'd be turbo-pissed if, say, the Brewers almost picked up, say... Torii Hunter. But the deal fell through, and then he went to the hated Astros. I'm so accustomed to the Brewers as a losing franchise that I have a tremendous amount of humor about it. I expect it. I nearly demand it. If something comes along to change it, great. If not, that's just the status quo. Look at the Red Sox. Look at the incredible things they did last year. If I were a Red Sox fan, and I saw that they kept the same team as last year and upgraded their pitching, I'd be mighty pleased. Who cares what the Yankees did? They're always going to acquire big-name, expensive free agents, it's just what they do. It's what they are. I guess what I'm trying to say is that last year and this year and all years, if you're a Red Sox fan, it's not about the Yankees. It's about the Red Sox. A-Rod or not, they are totally the team to beat. Cashman and Torre and Steinbrenner all know this.
posted by rocketman at 08:16 AM on February 17, 2004
I'm pissed off and upset about it, and I'm a Red Sox fan, but I'm totally willing to believe that jg is not as emotional as I am about this.
posted by Bryant at 10:13 AM on February 17, 2004
I deleted the ESPN Insider article from this discussion. I think we can be pretty liberal using excerpts of mainstream media articles, but running full text of pay-only pieces is inviting trouble.
posted by rcade at 10:29 AM on February 17, 2004
agreed.
posted by garfield at 11:27 AM on February 17, 2004
I now see the fallacy of my argument, to some extent. Here's an earlier jgirl post: I don't know what else to tell you except if that's anyone's thinking, because I am posting a lot that means I'm stung, you're wrong. Your assumptions are off and no matter what I am saying, you're either either spinning my actions and words to the contrary, implying otherwise or trying to convince me otherwise. You'll notice I haven't said anything in the thread after you posted that, and if I pissed you off, J, I'm sorry. You're not upset about this, and I get that now. As for the Red Sox Nation stereotype, however — I've never thought that Boston fans were fatalistic or whiners or whatever. I've always thought they were knowledgable, passionate and willing to speak their minds, and it's why I enjoy these RSN-related threads. THAT was the stereotype from which I was working, and that's why I was caught off-guard by the statements from Sox fans posted here. When jgirl and a few others wondered if I was calling her out on whether or not she was maybe underplaying her emotional state at this point, well, yeah, I was. I was just surprised at the tacit acceptance of this, I guess because I'd be biting a Louisville Slugger in half at this point. As I read it again, though, it sounds like I'm calling her a liar, and I didn't mean that. I'll shut up now.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:42 AM on February 17, 2004
This thread reminds me of trying to convince someone you're not an alcoholic. Denial is the first symptom. Or maybe, you're really not an alcoholic. (I'm not an alcoholic, btw.) (Seriously, I'm not.) (Just quit saying that, OK?)
posted by dzot at 12:17 PM on February 17, 2004
no *puff, puff*. no nuthin! jgirl if you read this, come on back. You're my 'member since' buddy, and if you go, I go. (As the general readership roars with approval in the hope of eradicating the 'tard' element from spofi, this poster quivers at just the thought of having to give up his favorite work time crutch.)
posted by garfield at 12:46 PM on February 17, 2004
Does anyone know the record for number of comments from a FPP?
posted by dales15 at 01:11 PM on February 17, 2004
garfield, if you're a tard, I'm a re-re.
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:17 PM on February 17, 2004
hey, man, I hear ya. I was incredulous of jgirl claiming to be anything but heartbroken, as I thought such a passionate fan would be unavoidably so. But apparently jgirl has a healthy dose of reason to go along with her zest.
posted by garfield at 01:22 PM on February 17, 2004
Did anyone catch the press conference? My favorite Freudian slip was Alex related the story of something Jeter told A-Rod's wife: "She said to her . . . " Second place goes to him saying nothing is more important than winning except personal accolades. Again, not what he meant to say, but entertaining from the jilted lover perspective.
posted by yerfatma at 03:39 PM on February 17, 2004
As a Rangers fan, I'm beginning to accept this deal, as bad as it was. A-Rod is 100 times more interesting as a member of the hated Yankees than he would be on any Texas team. However, it is a crime against baseball much worse than Pete Rose gambling to put one of the best shortstops ever at third base to keep Derek Jeter from getting his intangibles in a bunch.
posted by rcade at 07:01 PM on February 17, 2004
Spoken as someone who's never suffered the pain and humiliation of twisted intangibles.
posted by yerfatma at 07:10 PM on February 17, 2004
yeah, i heard the slip up too, yerfatma. this whole thing seems rather surreal. i'm not quite sure how i feel about the 3b/ss situation. a-rod is the better ss, but i think you'd do more damage with jeter at 3rd than at short. maybe he'd be better at 2nd, but i was always under the impression that moving to that side of the infield wasn't an easy transition. so, i'm willing to see how this setup plays out. who knows, maybe it'll lite a fire under jeter's ass. i'm just glad i finally decided to get an opening day ticket this year.
posted by goddam at 08:43 PM on February 17, 2004
Look at the Red Sox. Look at the incredible things they did last year. If I were a Red Sox fan, and I saw that they kept the same team as last year and upgraded their pitching, I'd be mighty pleased. Who cares what the Yankees did? They're always going to acquire big-name, expensive free agents, it's just what they do. It's what they are. I guess what I'm trying to say is that last year and this year and all years, if you're a Red Sox fan, it's not about the Yankees. It's about the Red Sox. A-Rod or not, they are totally the team to beat. Cashman and Torre and Steinbrenner all know this. Well put. You may not be a sox fan rocketman, but you nailed it on the head. If this had happened during the month we were trying to get A-rod, it would have stung far more. Regardless, even if people believe red sox fans are in their bath tubs holding an electric razor to their throats and not counting the minutes until opening day you must understand one thing. Losing a player we never had is nothing compared to watching us give a league championship away to a team we had beaten. The fact is we've known (basically) what team we'll have on opening day for a while, and I'm very happy with it. All the trade does is make the rivalry even better. There couldn't be a better time to be a redsox fan. For once, we might have a better pitching staff than the yankees, and they may score more runs than us. You don't see that too many years. If Arod brings a ws win to the yankees, I'll tip my hat. But despite many now all but giving the yankees the division the game isn't played on paper. After all, let's remember that it was boone, in all his horrid hitting delight, that sent the sox home. In baseball not much goes as plans. Just ask the rangers about their Arod years. But I for one can't wait. Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, Foulke? Pokey Reese actually turning a few balls hit towards second into outs? Nomar pissed off with something to prove? Are you freakin' kidding me? I can't remember a time when the red sox cry wasn't "if we only had pitching". Now we do. Bring on the damn yankees. We're ready in all our humorless glory ;) I've never looked forward to a season as much as this one. Should be a great ride. So maybe the yankees are now favored. Maybe this year will be no different than the past 80 or so years. But what if its not? That 'what if' is a beautiful thing, and why they play the games. Play ball!
posted by justgary at 12:08 AM on February 18, 2004
There couldn't be a better time to be a redsox fan. 1904-1918 wouldn't be so bad.
posted by yerfatma at 06:34 AM on February 18, 2004
Now Red Sox owner John Henry is a little peeved at the deal.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:49 AM on February 18, 2004
Oh, and here's another take on the entire deal. Best line in the column — Sure, you hate the Yankees, but if baseball was the world (God forbid), the Yanks would certainly be America: big, rich and run by a tool.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:55 AM on February 18, 2004
John Henry and I are on the same wavelength. I'm just days earlier on it. I wish they'd hire me for something.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:02 AM on February 18, 2004
I just don't think there's much avoiding it anymore. You're talking about one team having a 50% bigger payroll than the second-biggest, and more than 600% larger than the lowest. At what point does everyone admit that it's just not right?
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:06 AM on February 18, 2004
Only in Boston can you have a $120 million payroll stocked with bought-and-paid-for talent and still believe you're the little guy, fighting the good fight. what's it going to be? it can't go both ways.
posted by oliver_crunk at 10:19 AM on February 18, 2004
I'm not getting into this again.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:20 AM on February 18, 2004
Crunk's right, and he poses a good question, rhetorical though it may be. Is the difference between the Yankees and everyone else insane? YES! YES! YES! Will tackling that specific issue do anything to better baseball? No! NO! NO! It will only help those teams in the $100 million club, like John Henry's. Meanwhile, it will leave the small-market teams lying under the bus. I'm glad the idea of the salary cap now seems like a good idea to Mr. Henry, I really am, but sadly they put a band-aid on this cracked skull in August when they signed their new labor agreement. So until next time rolls around, shut the fuck up and deal with the mess you and your $100 million payroll helped make.
posted by 86 at 10:34 AM on February 18, 2004
posted by rocketman at 10:42 AM on February 18, 2004
It's about the Red Sox. A-Rod or not, they are totally the team to beat. The Red Sox will never be the team to beat until they have beaten the Yankees. I might have described them as the favorite to win the AL East this year prior to the A-Rod deal, but that "team to beat" stuff is crazy talk.
posted by rcade at 12:38 PM on February 18, 2004
1904-1918 wouldn't be so bad. May be I should have added in my lifetime. Hell, in my fathers life time. but that "team to beat" stuff is crazy talk. The Arod deal certainly gives the yankees a big lift, but crazy talk? Please. The red sox have never had a problem scoring runs, especially not last year. Its always been pitching, and now with schilling and a closer, they've addressed their biggest problems. Shortstop was never a 'problem'. The teams are so close, I really feel it will come down to which staff stays off the injured list. If the red sox staff stays healthy, I'll take that 'crazy' bet.
posted by justgary at 01:40 PM on February 18, 2004
Whoa. Never noticed the "team to beat" crap. Thankfully it wasn't uttered by a Sox fan, but it's still ludicrous. The Sox have what looks to be a good team. Unfortunately, they play in one of baseball's toughest divisions and things didn't get easier this off-season. The red sox have never had a problem scoring runs, especially not last year. I bet I could find a half-dozen seasons in the last 25 seasons where the Sox were well below league average. Reggie Smith, Vern Stephens, et al are not walking through that door folks, and past performance is no indicator of future results. Just because they play in Fenway doesn't mean they'll score tons of runs. Given they had the best offensive team in league history last year, I would expect a dropoff. And Francona deserves a Nobel Peace Prize if he can manage what promises to be a very fragile collective psyche. I'm excited for the season, but overconfidence is an ugly thing, especially for a Sox fan.
posted by yerfatma at 01:49 PM on February 18, 2004
overconfidence is an ugly thing I agree. This is why I think the Sox are the team to beat.
posted by rocketman at 02:04 PM on February 18, 2004
I'm going to go with the Marlins for a repeat.
posted by corpse at 02:34 PM on February 18, 2004
The Rangers are saying they knew Soriano's real age. Amazing what people will do to excel at their sport. And the tickets I bought for September 17th, Sox vs Yankees at The Stadium just got more valuable.
posted by usfbull at 07:17 PM on February 18, 2004
hey, i got a ticket for that game too.
posted by goddam at 07:35 PM on February 18, 2004
I bet I could find a half-dozen seasons in the last 25 seasons where the Sox were well below league average. I have no idea if you're a sox fan or not, but since I was about 5 years old I can't remember many years where I hoped for more hitting. From yaz's last years, to last years team, its always been pitching. past performance is no indicator of future results. Very true. So maybe Arod will have an off year huh? Maybe the yankees won't score as many runs. Maybe Rivera will have an off season. Works both ways. Just because they play in Fenway doesn't mean they'll score tons of runs. Hmm, no one said that. Given they had the best offensive team in league history last year, I would expect a dropoff. More than likely yes. But unless the offense completely collapses they will score enough runs if the pitching is there. If they have to depend on the offense scoring as they did last season the season is lost anyway. but overconfidence is an ugly thing, especially for a Sox fan. Oh whatever. I love how sox fans have been singled out in this thread as lieing, humorless, and now over confident. I haven't seen any over confidence in this thread. Saying the sox are the team to beat is not a super stretch if you believe their pitching will hold up. And even if sox fans are over confident, its not an ugly thing. It's freaking baseball, and hope springs eternal, yes, even in boston. I'd say if you want to see over confidence you might want to look at the yankee side, where the sudden signing of Arod makes most of them think the season is a lock. (but its more fun picking on sox fans, huh?) As hard as it is to believe, we don't all lament the past 80 years. I, for one, am over last year.
posted by justgary at 10:19 PM on February 18, 2004
And by the way, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I just think looking at the season with high expectaions with the additions on our pitching staff and feeling good about our chances is not over confident, and even if it were there's nothing ugly about it (and in the end doesn't determine anything about the sox's season). Not all red sox fans walk around expecting the worse. And if the worse does come this season? There's always next.
posted by justgary at 10:29 PM on February 18, 2004
where the sudden signing of Arod makes most of them think the season is a lock. Exactly. While the trade was certainly a coup on Cashman's part, it certainly doesn't justify the pre-emptive boasting about championship rings. I for one do not believe the Yankees - even with Arod - have as solid a team as the Red Sox.
posted by rocketman at 11:14 PM on February 18, 2004
Saying the sox are the team to beat is not a super stretch if you believe their pitching will hold up. You're speaking to someone who still believes where he sits on the couch, where the remote is placed, whether feet are on the coffee table or not all makes a difference in the Sox winning or losing. You'll pardon me if I think statements of confidence are a good way to jinx a team. Don't take this personally, because I don't mean you, but I'm sick of "Red Sox fans" and Red Sox Nation and every other goddamn bandwagon jumper that shows up around the All-Star break when things have been going well. These are the people that continue to echo the things their bullshit fan fathers told them, how the Sox always hit and never pitch. The price of Sox loyalty is sitting through seasons where that isn't true. Everyone "remembers" 1986 and, to a lesser extent, 1988 and 1990. What about 1992? Second to last in runs scored and second in runs allowed. Top three salaries were starting pitchers. That wasn't an anomaly either. 1993 was almost identical. The only change in 1994 was that their pitching sucked too. Did you wish for more hitting then?
posted by yerfatma at 07:19 AM on February 19, 2004
Is this thread indicative of a new form of bias, tarring all Red Sox Nation with the same brush? My brothers and sisters of SportsFilter, I implore you not to stagger to such depths of discrimination but rather to come into the light of understanding! Raise up your eyes and see that JerseyGirl's love of a hard-muscled backside is not the same as Yerfatma's chilling mysticism nor JustGary's cold-eyed optimism. Yes, they all pray at the same church, year after year, though the objects of their adulation do not ever bring forth the annointed Rings, but still I urge that you respect them and their individualism and humanity.
posted by billsaysthis at 10:30 AM on February 19, 2004
Amen.
posted by jasonspaceman at 10:36 AM on February 19, 2004
Can I get a sac fly?
posted by corpse at 12:54 PM on February 19, 2004
Backing vocals: Swing Swing Swing Swing Swing.
posted by garfield at 01:09 PM on February 19, 2004
I believe in the Church of Baseball. I've tried all the major religions, and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms, and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. ... It's a long season and you gotta trust. I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.
posted by jerseygirl at 01:24 PM on February 19, 2004
Who's the reverend? Vin Scully?
posted by jasonspaceman at 01:55 PM on February 19, 2004
never saw bull durham, huh, meat?
posted by jerseygirl at 02:00 PM on February 19, 2004
Why you calling me meat? I'm the one driving a Porsche.
posted by rocketman at 02:31 PM on February 19, 2004
Don't take this personally, because I don't mean you, but I'm sick of "Red Sox fans" and Red Sox Nation and every other goddamn bandwagon jumper that shows up around the All-Star break when things have been going well. I can understand that. But the extreme is always the loudest. Every team has those fans, but boston has such a huge following (even here in the south) that there even that more obvious. These are the people that continue to echo the things their bullshit fan fathers told them, how the Sox always hit and never pitch. The first season I can remember watching as a child was 78. From 78-98 the sox averaged 3.2 out of all american league teams in average. 6.6 in pitching. In those years the sox had the highest average in the american league 9 times, 2nd twice, 3rd four times. Take away the very few years that were by definition anomalies and their hitting stats would be even more impressive. The stats don't lie. Regardless, I'm excited about the sox pitching not just because of the past, but because imho I'd rather have pitching than hitting anyday. Pitching can keep you in any ballgame. So I'll trade a little hitting for better pitching any time. I'm confident that if the red sox play well, and yes that's a big if, they can hang with the yankees. It should be pretty interesting. But that's not over confidence, I promise you.
posted by justgary at 10:58 PM on February 19, 2004
I just read that, and then came here to see if Jerseygirl was panicking. Ugh... I just hope this one has a quick merciful death, unlike the last one.